Timing belt change, but advanced on vcds graph

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Hello all,

I have replaced my timing belt.

I have a manual and got the notch on flywheel.

I locked the cam and fuel injection pump pulley.

I matched the first crankshaft sprocket dot with the notch on the block and the other two dots followed to the right.

I reassembled the motor.

It started right up, but was rough and smoked pretty bad.

The car sat for 4 months, I thought that is why it was smoking since t started right up with no adjustment.

The VCDS shows the timing to be too far advanced to be plotted.

I retarted it all the way mechanically. It is still too far advanced to be graphed. It smokes less, but I know what turbo feels like and I don't have it. Yes, all my vacuum lines are connected.

I seen a video on YouTube that says you can advance the timing to 33268 instead of 32768. Can I retard the timing to 32268?

Please let me know your thoughts. I am really new to this.



https://imgur.com/85D4ryO
 
Last edited:

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Daughters car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
So you adjusted it at the cam sprocket by loosening the 3 bolts? Where are those 3 bolts in their respective slots? More or less centered or all the way against one side or the other?
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Sometimes if the timing is off enough VCDS reports the opposite condition. I guess it's picking up the next cylinder. So try retarding it.

This is strange because the ALH usually requires little adjustment.

What's this mean: "I matched the first crankshaft sprocket dot with the notch on the block and the other two dots followed to the right."?

When you set the tensioner were the three pump sprocket bolts loose and was the cam sprocket loose on the shaft so it could rotate?

After setting the tension bur before torquing the cam and pump sprocket bolts did you verify that the crank was still at TDC?

If your static timing is off you shouldn't be messing with VCDS to bring it in.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I think the OP has botched the TB job.

I suggest that he start over ........

1. Set the engine on TDC by the timing mark on the Flywheel (transmission end of engine).

2. Loosen the Cam Bolt and break the Sprocket Cog loose. <<<< EDIT: I didn't say remove, just loosen the bolt two or three turns.

3. Insert the Cam locking tool

4. Loosen the three bolts holding the IP Sprocket Cog

5. Insert the pin in the IP.

You may need to nudge the crankshaft forward or backward a bit......... typical.

Try to set the physical timing so that the three bolts in the IP Sprocket are centered in the slots............. it will be damn close in time if you do this!

Hope this helps!
 
Last edited:

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
..........................................I seen a video on YouTube that says you can advance the timing to 33268 instead of 32768. Can I retard the timing to 32268?.....................

You can do this (it's actually recommended in one of our old FAQs) but first you want the timing right in the middle. Sounds like you just need to go back to the mechanical time step with the bolts loose as you re-tension. Then fine tune with the IP pulley bolts using VCDS or equal.
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
So you adjusted it at the cam sprocket by loosening the 3 bolts? Where are those 3 bolts in their respective slots? More or less centered or all the way against one side or the other?
They are all the way retarded, as far as they can go.

VCDS shows timing 255. :confused:
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
I never removed the cam sprocket. :eek:
can I fix this with the motor assembled?
Removed or loosened?
'Breaking it loose' is necessary but not actually removing it though it frees up some room.
 
Last edited:

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
I was thinking if I am able to loosen the belt somehow with the motor assembled then I could retard the IP pulley 21 teeth (8 degrees) per tooth. moving within the holes does not retard it enough to budge but a few degrees and since I am sitting at 255 on VCDS then that is 21 teeth. In theory.

If you guys have a suggestion of loosening the belt with the motor assembled then please let me know and I will do it one tooth at a time on the IP until I get it to 65.

I am pretty sure that's what I need to do, no?:confused:
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
I did not.
Ah, well go through the correct procedure and then you'll see if the IP sprocket is off
by the position of the screws in the slots. Get the holes as close to center of the slots as
as you can with the locking pin in place. It may be a tooth or so off, so correct it now.
 
Last edited:

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
This can be fixed without removing the mount. Set the motor at TDC, and follow the instructions as far as cam and pump positioning are concerned.
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Ah, well go through the correct procedure and then you'll see if the IP sprocket is off
by the position of the screws in the slots. Get it as close to center of the slots as
as you can with the locking pin in place. It may be a tooth or so off, so correct it now.
Thank you FLEE.

I understand.

I do not understand how to do this procedure though.

Do I have to remove the timing belt again to move the IP a tooth?
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Thank you FLEE.
I understand.
I do not understand how to do this procedure though.
Do I have to remove the timing belt again to move the IP a tooth?
A similar thing happened to me on my ALH TB job.
I was able to remove the IP sprocket and reposition it after removing the tensioner.
So you are basically redoing the belt job, just not removing and replacing the belt.
Breaking the cam sprocket free is essential as is locking everything in position.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Look at the steps in Andy's post #4 in this thread.

This isn't a job to take shortcuts on. Read the procedure carefully.

If you have to, remove the sprocket as flee suggests. Also, this will let you be sure the pump is pinned in the hole, not off to the side of the boss the hole is in.

On an ALH, if you get it assembled and tensioned correctly it'll be very close.
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
A similar thing happened to me on my ALH TB job.
I was able to remove the IP sprocket and reposition it after removing the tensioner.
So you are basically redoing the belt job, just not removing and replacing the belt.
Breaking the cam sprocket free is essential as is locking everything in position.
so I have to remove the IP sprocket?
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Look at the steps in Andy's post #4 in this thread.

This isn't a job to take shortcuts on. Read the procedure carefully.

If you have to, remove the sprocket as flee suggests. Also, this will let you be sure the pump is pinned in the hole, not off to the side of the boss the hole is in.

On an ALH, if you get it assembled and tensioned correctly it'll be very close.

I already changed the timing belt. I already followed every step except for breaking free the cam sprocket. I already locked the IP before removal of old timing belt.

If I am fixing the timing issue by moving IP pulley, why do you want me to take note on locking the IP from Andy's post?
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Whatever it takes to reposition the belt on the sprocket.
I remember it was a bit of a hassle to get enough slack to work the belt around.
So, I loosen the belt and spin the IP pulley retarded one tooth and re tighten belt?
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Sometimes if the timing is off enough VCDS reports the opposite condition. I guess it's picking up the next cylinder. So try retarding it.

This is strange because the ALH usually requires little adjustment.

What's this mean: "I matched the first crankshaft sprocket dot with the notch on the block and the other two dots followed to the right."?

When you set the tensioner were the three pump sprocket bolts loose and was the cam sprocket loose on the shaft so it could rotate?

After setting the tension bur before torquing the cam and pump sprocket bolts did you verify that the crank was still at TDC?

If your static timing is off you shouldn't be messing with VCDS to bring it in.
question 1, answer: there are three dots on crankshaft sprocket. aligning the frist one with the notch on the block is impeccable.

question 2, answer: yes for 3 pump sprocket, no for cam sprocket.

question 3, answer: yes
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
No teeth. You'll need to Put the crank at TDC, detension, break the cam sprocket loose so it can freewheel. The IP pin should be in position, if you need to move it you'll want it loose as well. Check crank is at TDC, lock it (you can wedge something in at the pulley or use the tool), cam locked in the vacuum pump slot (tool), insert pin,. Retension the belt, this is where the pulley will freewheel. Tighten everything down, start it up and fine tune.
"there are three dots on crankshaft sprocket. aligning the frist one with the notch on the block is impeccable."
Don't know anything about that, I've always set the crank with the flywheel pointer.
 
Last edited:

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
I don't know if the IP is advanced or retarded a tooth but once the holes are centered, you're good.
Yes, I understand, and when it is in the middle it starts right up, but white smokes.

When I retard it all the way the holes will allow, it starts up right away and no white smoke only strong diesel fuel odor.

It's dog slow either way.

I check the mechanical timing in VCDS and it is too far advanced to be charted.

I noticed on ross-tech's guide it shows 67 for timing in the number box at the bottom.

My box shows 234-255. see pic

https://imgur.com/85D4ryO

 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
VCDS does not know if the basic mechanical timing is off. If you did it without the cam sprocket loose, it's likely off. When you tension, that sprocket wants to move.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I already changed the timing belt. I already followed every step except for breaking free the cam sprocket. I already locked the IP before removal of old timing belt.
If I am fixing the timing issue by moving IP pulley, why do you want me to take note on locking the IP from Andy's post?
If I were in your position I would:
1) Put the motor at TDC using the mark on the flywheel, not the pulley
2) loosen tensioner
3) remove the cam sprocket
4) insert the cam locking bar
5) loosen the pump sprocket bolts
6) verify the pump is pinned in the correct spot
7) position the pump sprocket with the slots centered on the bolts
8) position the belt with no slack between crank and pump
11) install the cam sprocket with no slack between pump and cam
12) install the cam bolt finger tight
13) set tensioner and torque bolt
14) verify crank position is still TDC
15) torque cam sprocket bolt using tool to hold sprocket not relying on locking bar
16) torque pump bolts
17) remove locking tools
18) rotate crank using a wrench on the crank nut NOT the cam bolt and NOT the pump bolt and verify marks

Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

It's frustrating, I know. Lots of us trying to help you avoid disaster. We're all saying pretty much the same thing or pieces of the same thing.
 
Last edited:
Top