Think hybrids are the only way to be efficient? Think again ...

[njkayaker]

The original question posted by bioninja was about whether hybrid batteries are expensive to replace. The answer is YES, very expensive.

Given all the time you spend posting, it would seem that you could find some time to locate a reasonable source for this statement.

 

[Txst]

Give me one good reason that a Prius owner wouldn't return their old battery for recycling when they buy a new one. After all, it's a dead battery with no other easy uses.

First, don't assume that everyone who has a prius battery will even want to buy another one. It might be the last thing they ever want again. The car could easily be trashed before the battery is beat (these cars were not built to last like a TDI!) or many owners may decide that the price of a new battery is way too costly and so don't bother with a new one. And others just decide they've had enough time in a prius and don't want to suffer any longer. To be very optimistic, lets say that 30% of current owners will want to buy another battery. That leaves 70% that won't. Who's gonna police those batteries for the 70% that won't to make sure they get turned in?

O.K. let's see here, just one reason besides the ones listed above? Hmmmmm...

1. Car is in a wreck, owner never buys another prius. Battery doesn't get turned in by owner.

2. Car is owned now by ex-wife through divorce. The woman doesn't know about the battery recycle issue and junks car...never turns in battery.

3. Old lady wants nothing to do with turning in old dirty battery. Doesn't want another similar car, never turns in battery.

4. Owner has plenty of money, doesn't want another similar car, doesn't bother turning in old battery.

5. Car is stolen, never found, owner never gets to turn in old battery, new owner sure won't turn it in.

6. Car gets passed down to kids, kids move away, have their own money and don't care to mess with a heavy dirty battery, doesn't get turned in.

7. Many owners not wanting a similar battery or car and are afraid the battery can be harmful to them if messed with so they don't turn it in.

8. Owners frustrated because of misinformation about where to take the battery or what to do with it and so decide not to mess with it, doesn't get turned in.

9. Plain laziness of owners who don't want another one, doesn't get turned in.

10. Mechanic nuts who want one in their garage because "it looks cool" doesn't get turned in.

11. Broken one's from a dead car that got moved to a dark corner of a garage to be turned in "someday" when they get around to it, doesn't get turned in.

12. And all the same reasons people don't turn in their current recyclable items.

13. Owner passes away, new owner could care less about the car or battery, never turns it in.

!4. Angry prius owner is mad at the world because he was told he would get such high MPG in his prius and finds out it was a big lie but is stuck driving the ugly thing for years to come, and was told how the hybrid batteries would be cheaper down the road but that never became more than just talk. He's so angry and disappointed, he never wants anything to do with toyota again and doesn't turn in battery.

15. Owner moves over-seas with car, cars life ends while there, no battery turn-in station at location, car not worth sending back to the states...doesn't want to take battery on plane back with him (I wonder why)...battery doesn't get turned in.

16. Owner heard rumor that they no longer recycle these batteries, car is dead or close to it, he believes rumor (partly wanting to because he doesn't want to mess with the heavy battery, but doesn't want the wife to know it), battery doesn't get turned in.

17. Owner thinks environment issue is a joke and could care less...doesn't turn in battery.

We live in the land of excuses and procrastination, don't doubt for a minute that these excuses and more wouldn't be used by all kinds of people. People move, lives change, cars break, cars change hands, lots of things happen...life isn't perfect and recycling plans are very far from perfect and very expensive endeavors with the costs being paid by us consumers eventually. It's just a reality. Certainly some of the batteries will be turned in, but there are no guarantees on any percentage.

 

[Txst]

Given all the time you spend posting, it would seem that you could find some time to locate a reasonable source for this statement.

Try calling Toyota (heard of them?) for a price quote on a new hybrid battery...not too hard is it?! Good enough source?

Sorry Officer, if I upset your Post Police and passed my allotted amount of posting times. Sheesh!

BTW Officer, you sure do have too much time on your hands if you're tracking my posting time! Don't you have a Jay-walker to go ticket or something?

 

[IRONBOY]

Good points from both sides.I take that this is not the end of the subject,but just a brief recess.

 

[jackbombay]

There are large recycle bins across the street from my house but hardly anybody uses them.

So if you had your batteris changed out at the dealer would you insist on taking yor dead batteries home with you so you could throw them in the landfill which is illegall and very bad when it comes to polluting ground water, or will you leave the dead batteries at the dealer for them to deal with? Do you think the dealer will throw them away when toyota will likely pay them fro the bad batteries? Toyota WANTS the dead batteries so they can recycle them, I doubt the dealer would even let you have the bad ones, much like bad injection pumps for our TDIs.

 

[Txst]

So if you had your batteris changed out at the dealer would you insist on taking yor dead batteries home with you so you could throw them in the landfill which is illegall and very bad when it comes to polluting ground water, or will you leave the dead batteries at the dealer for them to deal with? Do you think the dealer will throw them away when toyota will likely pay them fro the bad batteries? Toyota WANTS the dead batteries so they can recycle them, I doubt the dealer would even let you have the bad ones, much like bad injection pumps for our TDIs.

Well, like I mentioned earlier...for many reasons a lot of owners may never want another battery and thus will never go to the dealer for any exchange to take place. Again, you're talking about policing these batteries? Just who is going to do the policing? Regulations and laws? Hmmmm, ever heard of a thing called speeding? It's against the law and people have known it for a while now. Guess nobody gets tickets these days for speeding because it's against the law! And nobody dumps things illegally or steals, or kills etc...because it's all against the law and very bad! Sound anything like reality?

Toyota wanting the batteries does nothing for those who could care less if toyota gets them. I already posted various possible reasons for that.

Now we're talking about the dealer getting money for these batteries but the actual owner won't get any return money? If the owners do...will we not then begin to see more of these batteries stolen? Once again...battery police will be needed or a more sophisticated system for tracking all of them which won't be cheap. Like I mentioned b4...it ain't as easy as just writing it in a forum and making it all sound nice and easy. Once that battery leaves the dealership in that car...their isn't anybody policing or tracking those batteries to make sure they wind up back at a recycle facility. It will just be hit and miss at best. Many people could just care less after the years go by and changes occur and more important issues are being dealt with in life besides some battery that toyota apparently wants so badly (which I highly doubt they really care too much about accept for a few for testing purposes). You're assuming a lot if you're saying toyota is going to be so motivated to spend money to locate and retrieve all these batteries.

 

[jackbombay]

Well, like I mentioned earlier...for many reasons a lot of owners may never want another battery and thus will never go to the dealer for any exchange to take place.

The batteries won't need to be recycled then, "recycling problem" solved.

 

[Txst]

The batteries won't need to be recycled then, "recycling problem" solved.

Future politician in the making!!

 

[MrMopar]

I see that I've contributed to the problem. I'll stop feeding the troll.

 

[karlaudi]

And at the end of the lifespan of the battery, it's almost 100% recyclable. To encourage people to recycle the old battery, $5 is added onto the price of new batteries sold in Illinois as a core fee. You get that $5 knocked off the price at the register if you return your old battery at the point of purchase, or you can just bring back a receipt at a later date with the old battery.

We have something similar here in California and the local recycling centers take them for free too, as to with used oil.

Yet, it is very common to find batteries dumped in fields, empty lots, freeway on/off ramps, and the back streets of disused industrial areas along with HDPE one gallon milk jugs filled to the brim with used oil.

I prefer the looks of the first generation Prius.

Some more comments on the energy/resource intensive to build / [possibly] too expensive to own and maintain [especially when second hand and off warranty] Prius, later.

 

[Txst]

Yet, it is very common to find batteries dumped in fields, empty lots, freeway on/off ramps, and the back streets of disused industrial areas along with HDPE one gallon milk jugs filled to the brim with used oil.

Impossible! Don't those people know that it's illegal and very bad?

Give me one good reason why people would do such a thing!!

 

[njkayaker]

Try calling Toyota (heard of them?) for a price quote on a new hybrid battery...not too hard is it?! Good enough source?

OK. You have no source! Since you have't posted a specific number, you clearly haven't called Toyota yourself.

Sorry Officer, if I upset your Post Police and passed my allotted amount of posting times. Sheesh!

You are certainly free to post as many times as you like. It's too bad so many (not all of them) of the posts are uninformative rants with no real support.

BTW Officer, you sure do have too much time on your hands if you're tracking my posting time! Don't you have a Jay-walker to go ticket or something?

You are a might paranoid. One only needs to see the posts in this thread to see that you have too much tiime on your hands.

1. Car is in a wreck, owner never buys another prius. Battery doesn't get turned in by owner.

etc, etc, etc.

For many of these, the car would be returned to the used car market (with the batteries). For most of the others, even wreaked cars have a fair amount of value. Some of these are just plain dopey.

 

[Txst]

OK. You have no source! Since you have't posted a specific number, you clearly haven't called Toyota yourself.

You asked for a source, I gave it. Sorry it's not enough for you, but I gave you exactly what you asked for. The price has already been posted on another thread. Do a search in this forum if you like or just simply call them, but don't expect me to do your work for you when you have nothing better to do with your time than to police my posts.

You are certainly free to post as many times as you like. It's too bad so many (not all of them) of the posts are uninformative rants with no real support.

Sorry Professor, I didn't know you were grading these and that they're not up to your standards! Feel free to enlighten us with your expertise in posting. Maybe I'll have my Doctorate in Posting like you some day.

One only needs to see the posts in this thread to see that you have too much tiime on your hands.

Sorry Master Sir, I didn't know you were monitoring my time schedule. I'll gets right backs to my work Sir. Jus please don't beats me Master!

Some of these are just plain dopey.

Well of course they're dopey. Most excuses are, but these types of excuses are used every day, just call your local Unemployment Office (a source for you), and ask them the outrageous and dopey excuses people give for not being able to work!

Why do you think the environment is as polluted as it is? Why do you think so many people drive big gas hogs that harm the environment instead of driving a more economical car that would be more friendly to the environment? Do you think it all happens with well thought-out reasons and smart excuses? Dopey excuses are a big reason that people leave gallon jugs full of oil out in fields as well as car batteries and all sorts of stuff that shouldn't be. Dopey reasons are why people don't recycle items that can be recycled even when a recycling facility is close by. Dopey things happen every day...that was the point of the list of excuses people come up with. We'd live in a perfect world if dopey things didn't happen.

BTW, I was asked to supply just one reason...I gave plenty. I realize that many of us wouldn't use the same reasons and some are a stretch, but people would still use them and/or others.

Why don't you volunteer the time that you spend policing my posts on policing the prius batteries for free, and everyone will be happy!
Cheers

 

[karlaudi]

Impossible! Don't those people know that it's illegal and very bad?

Yes, this is true.

Give me one good reason why people would do such a thing!!

Well, I tell my ten year old daughter that such things are the result of "sloppy people", while I tell myself that these things are the result of the "lame and lazy" and indifferent. Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Txst]

Well, I tell my ten year old daughter that such things are the result of "sloppy people", while I tell myself that these things are the result of the "lame and lazy" and indifferent. Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine.

Yes, I totally agree!

(P.S. Sorry Karlaudi, I was being a little sarcastic in that post in response to earlier posts. ) O.K. alot sarcastic

 

[03_01_TDI]

And there are as many hybrid batteries as cans, plastics, papers etc...

There are large recycle bins across the street from my house but hardly anybody uses them. Tons of these items end up in land fills because people don't take the time and don't care to. I'm still waiting for one good reason why people don't use these recycle bins even when they are real close to home.

The fact is

actually the fact is recycling is a major cost to the TAX payers, for most items. It's cheaper and most cases cleaner to use raw materials than to collect, sort, transport, clean, transport a few more times, then turn back into a new item. Tax payers fund most all recycling efforts. Nothing wrong with that.... but so long as you know the truth.

 

[Txst]

actually the fact is recycling is a major cost to the TAX payers, for most items. It's cheaper and most cases cleaner to use raw materials than to collect, sort, transport, clean, transport a few more times, then turn back into a new item. Tax payers fund most all recycling efforts. Nothing wrong with that.... but so long as you know the truth.

Yup, I know and agree. That's why I said on an earlier post that it all eventually comes back costing the consumers (taxpayers). Any recycling effort done by toyota (or the battery company) for their prius batteries gets added into the price of the vehicle. It is a very expensive process, which backs up my original points.
Cheers

 

[hank miller]

Actually batteries tend to be a money positive to recyclers. That is you can extract the valuable metals for less than their worth in the market.

Much like aluminum cans. In fact when recycling first got big (20 years ago) someone estimated that if everyone put their aluminum cans out for curbside recycling instead of taking them in themselves, curbside recycling would return money to those who do it.

Most of the posted ways a Prius battery would be recycled are bogus because a junk yard will send a dead battery back if they get paid anything for it.

 

[MrMopar]

Much like aluminum cans. In fact when recycling first got big (20 years ago) someone estimated that if everyone put their aluminum cans out for curbside recycling instead of taking them in themselves, curbside recycling would return money to those who do it.

There is a homeless guy that comes by my street picking up cans for money. I usually drink a soda before going to work for the caffeine, and I just throw them in the street when I leave. They're gone by the time I get back. That way, I both recycle and keep a needy person in a job.

 

[Txst]

Much like aluminum cans. In fact when recycling first got big (20 years ago) someone estimated that if everyone put their aluminum cans out for curbside recycling instead of taking them in themselves, curbside recycling would return money to those who do it. quote]

Yeah, we have curb-side recycling in my town for certain items and have bins close by for paper items and such.

At first, people used both. Now both are ignored by most people so the cost is very high compared to return. If prius batteries could be turned in by junk-yards, there would have to be enough money in it to do it and if there was that much money in it to begin with, there would have to be a tracking system set up for them because they would be stolen just for the return money by anyone who needed that money. A tracking/policing system wouldn't be cheap or that easy and probably wouldn't be worth it.

As of now, it's based on a system where people turn them in when getting a new battery. No return money for a junk man involved. I seriously doubt that toyota will work too hard to get these batteries back because it would cost time and money. What they get back from the specific owners who actually want to purchase another one, they get... and thats about it.

 

[RC]

The batteries are falling! The batteries are falling!

Give it up man.

 

[Txst]

The batteries are falling! The batteries are falling!

That's your contribution to the subject? It must be an abstract post cuz it makes no sense but must have some value........somewhere. Very insightful, inspiring, and deep.

 

[RC]

That's your contribution to the subject?

No, the second line; "Give it up man." You've gotten your point across to anyone willing to listen. With all due respect, please move on.

 

[AutoDiesel]

At first, people used both. Now both are ignored by most people so the cost is very high compared to return. If prius batteries could be turned in by junk-yards, there would have to be enough money in it to do it and if there was that much money in it to begin with, there would have to be a tracking system set up for them because they would be stolen just for the return money by anyone who needed that money. A tracking/policing system wouldn't be cheap or that easy and probably wouldn't be worth it.

http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html

Hybrid Hype? Fact and Fiction Surrounding the New Technology

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

And again your negative speculating has
been proven wrong.

Give it up will ya?

 

[jackbombay]

http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html



And again your negative speculating has
been proven wrong.

Give it up will ya?

Did you see earlier where TXST was posting that *if* there is/was a core charge for batteries people would go around stealing them for the core charge? Well it turns out there is a core charge, as I suspected. So, TXST, how come we never read about marauding gangs of battery thieves making a living off of prius batteries?

 

[RC]

'Cause like other texans we know, he only sees what he wants to see.

 

[soberups]

One aspect of the battery recycling debate that has been overlooked here is that most Prius owners are going to go to the dealership for battery replacement anyway. A Prius battery is NOT like a normal automotive battery that weighs 40-50 pounds and can easily be removed in minutes with basic hand tools. My understanding is that battery replacement on a hybrid is a fairly major job requiring specialized tools, and that the battery itself weighs several hundred pounds....not something that the average do-it-yourselfer woould remove, replace, and leave in a ditch.
The real problem I see with hybrids is that they still use gasoline. What is needed is a biodiesel hybrid with plug-in capability and extra batteries. Such a car would be ideal for the urban 20-mile per day commuter....they could run strictly on battery most of the time, with the diesel available as a "kicker" for longer trips. If the owner of such a vehicle added a windmill and/or solar panels to their home to harness free electricity, they could wind up with a vehicle that uses virtually no fossil fuels at all.

 

[hank miller]

The plug in has issues of its own for more people. A gas engine should run for at least 15 minutes a week, under load. Most people plugging in every day would never run the engine. Then the one time they need it, it runs badly because the rings stuck to the walls, and the started ripped them away, taking some of the cylinder with it...

The advantage of plug in cars is coal is cheap. Wind and solar are not a significant enough factor in any country to count. From the standpoint of CO2 (global warming) plug in cars are much worse than gasoline. From the standpoint of emissions they are better (Assuming clean coal, which is not a given), and they are cheaper to run.

 

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by Steve-o
... I, too, think we'll be looking at hybrids as the Stanley Steamers of our day -- after some of the neater ideas (like regenerative braking) are "stolen" for other designs.

Like what other designs? Got anything up your sleave the rest of the world doesn't know about besides the clean diesels and some form of hybrids that are on the table now?

The "hope" that some now unknow form of technological fix to our dire prediment will magically appear is frightening.

Well, I'm not sure where that came from. Hey, I'm not a powerplant engineer. I don't know what's coming down the pike in 20-30 years. When I was very young, Chrysler was going to outfit us all with gas turbine engines. Didn't happen. At that time, I don't think anyone had gone as far as a napkin sketch of a hybrid gasoline-electric powerplant. Now we're talking about diesels with catalytic converters and other pollution-control technologies borrowed from other kinds of engines. So who's to say what The Next Big Thing in powerplants is going to be -- or where it will come from? To think we now know all we ever need to know about generating automotive power cleanly and efficiently is presumptuous.

Besides, I'm doing my bit. I voted with my dollars and bought a TDI that I plan to drive for years. The engine is good for it and so is the body. I could have purchased a hybrid, but I have some of the same reservations others have expressed here. Will it ever get cheaper to own a hybrid? I don't think so. But, for what is possible right now, having someone driving a hybrid is better than having them drive a pickup or some other vehicle that's poorly suited to their driving situation. I'm not waiting for some "magical" fix -- I'm doing what I can now.

 

[RC]

... Besides, I'm doing my bit.

... I'm not waiting for some "magical" fix -- I'm doing what I can now.

And I thank you for that Steve. I just don't believe we're going to have anything other than the ICE and hybrid technology to get us through for the next half century or so, at best.

Our biggest fix is gonna be rearranging the way we live and using more efficiently what little there is to go around, IMHO.