There times when an automatic is a good thing to have...

[scooperhsd]

Especially when you really severely sprained an ankle and couldn't push in a clutch pedal right now. In fact, I'm barely walking right now,(with a crutch).

 

[DIESELprogrammer]

A properly built automatic is superior to a stick in just about any offroad application.

 

[wjdell]

Like I have said before one day a manual will be a option.

 

[bhtooefr]

In fact, in some cars, manual is already a (cost, even!) option.

And, in quite a few cars, manual ISN'T an option. It's automatic or bust!

Europe, OTOH... I think they'll fight the loss of the manual a bit harder.

 

[Bob_Fout]

A properly built automatic is superior to a stick in just about any offroad application.

Off-roading eh? How many auto tranny Jeeps do you see off-road?

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

Off-roading eh? How many auto tranny Jeeps do you see off-road?

Send a PM to "FL2AK-tdi" I don't think there is anyone else on this board who has tried harder to take his Jetta to places that would make a 4x4 jeep cringe.

I don't know but my auto trans Jetta has gone places that would make a jeep cringe lol.

 

[Brock_from_WI]

I am all for autos and they certainly have their place and are often necessary, but until I see any professional race, be it off road, stock car, F1 what ever using and auto I don't believe they are more efficient.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Dude..DSG came from racing

 

[Lug_Nut]

Then this thread belongs in the performance thread group or in the general thread group, not in the fuel economy thread group.

 

[BillsTDI]

I am all for autos and they certainly have their place and are often necessary, but until I see any professional race, be it off road, stock car, F1 what ever using and auto I don't believe they are more efficient.

Indy and Formula 1 cars all use DSG transmissions and have for several years now. The shift paddles are on the steering wheel just like a Pkg 2 VW TDI with DSG. There is no manual clutch, however there is a clutch but all the shifting is done by the computer.

 

[Bob_Fout]

How do they stall on launch then from the pits?

 

[mrGutWrench]

Originally Posted by DIESELprogrammer
A properly built automatic is superior to a stick in just about any offroad application.

Off-roading eh? How many auto tranny Jeeps do you see off-road?

__. OK, Bob. Short opinion from me. I worked for Land Rover in the engineering department for over 15 years. DProg is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! We used to sit around and laugh at the punters and say "99% of the drivers are better off with an automatic but 99% of them think that they can handle a manual better". Most of the *really good* drivers who were better with a manual preferred an auto off road.

__. The reason you don't see many auto tranny Cheeps off road is that their owners don't really know what they're doing (99% of the time).

 

[gailz]

Brock from WI and anyone else: please tell me how in the world you get that kind of mileage? i guess you have a stick, and i know i'd do better with that, but i'm pleased with mid-30s in town on my 2003 silver jetta wagon that looks just like yours. i can't understand your tech terms, and maybe nothing is relevant, but i surely would like to know how to up my mileage. of interest, maybe--i never got less than 40 mpg city, and once up to 50 country in my last vw, a 96 stick passat tdi. so maybe i can't drive an automatic properly?

gail

 

[Lug_Nut]

Mid 30's in town is about right. And the 96-97 Passat is just not normal. There is no way such a large car can get the mileage that model does. But, yes. It will and does get mid 30's in city congestion. I got 38 mpg on the NY Throughway in a snow storm that left me trundling along in third with the entire world's gathering of bald tires ahead of me. Stop and go will drop that even further to mid 20's.
If you want better fuel economy, then you'll need to post how to cut out the stopping and braking. Turning fuel into brake dust is not economical.
Most of those of us at and above the mean mileage have a greater percent of highway cruising than gridlock cursing.

 

[bhtooefr]

Gail: Torque converter automatic transmissions (the type you have) and diesel engines go together like... apples and ketchup.

In the city, a diesel equipped with a TC auto gets dreadful MPGs - I've heard of as much as a 20 MPG hit.

However, Brock from WI does some crazy experiments for MPGs (disconnecting his alternator, for instance ), so his numbers definitely shouldn't be treated as typical.

 

[dmwogan]

I love the auto. Every once in awhile I wish I had a stick again but then I sit in mopac rush hour and I'm reminded why I got an auto. I know all about keeping it in 2nd gear during traffic..Don't want to do that anymore.

 

[greengeeker]

... in a snow storm that left me trundling along in third with the entire world's gathering of bald tires ahead of me.

Nice I've never been able to put it so eloquently.

Other times when an auto is a good thing to have: when you know your wife CANNOT pay attention to the road AND worry about being in the right gear. Very nerve-racking.

Another interesting tidbit (just got the new DieselPower mag): Dodge and Chevy actually derate their engines for 2007 when they come with a manual.
Dodge auto 350 HP @ 3013 rpm, 650 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm
Dodge Manual 350 HP @ 3013 rpm, 610 lb-ft @ 1400 rpm
Chevy auto 360 HP @ 3200 rpm, 650 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm
Chevy Manual 300 HP @ 3000 rpm, 520 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm

Look at the hit you take with the Chevy! No idea what they are using for a manual transmission but it (and the clutch) must not be up to the task.
Maybe this is their way of phasing out the manuals??

 

[DIESELprogrammer]

Off-roading eh? How many auto tranny Jeeps do you see off-road?

Only the good ones!

I currently own five 4x4s (offroad capable vehicles – not SUV wantabies). Four are auto and one is still manual. The last CJ I built has a well-built for low-end torque 400ciSB Chevy matted to a bullet proof TH350 automatic trans. There is no manual trans out there that can keep up with it offroad. Whether it be mud, rocks, sand, hills, snow, you name it.

Over the last 35 years I have owned several 4x4 Jeeps, Scouts, a older Bronco, and lots of pickups. I have countless hours offroading, including 43 years of big game hunting, as a weekend hobby, and with my Jeep clubs I have done all of the major offroad trails in West Texas, New Mexico, Utah, California, Montana, and Washington. Some first with manual and over again in the same vehicle with automatic. No comparison with regards to control, shifting speed, reduced tire slippage, rocking, etc. Mind that I am talking about a properly built automatic where you can control shift rpm, torque lockup, etc, not a factory job.

BTW: My next CJ 5 rebuild (the one currently with a manual) is hopefully getting a 5.9ci 12V, Cummins diesel, along with a well-built auto. I am looking for the donor vehicle right now.

 

[EddyKilowatt]

I'm surprised at the efficiency hit that the Auto TDIs seem to take. Obviously, around town the torque converter is going to churn an annoying fraction of your input power into waste heat. BUT... out on the highway, aren't these units equipped with torque converter lockup? Don't they wind up actually turning the engine a little SLOWER at cruise speeds? Why wouldn't an Auto TDI do just as well as a manual during extended highway driving... or is there nobody here who is using them in that mode?

just curious,
Eddy

 

[bhtooefr]

In extended highway driving, they do almost as well as the manuals.

The people who are COMPLAINING aren't driving them on the highway.

 

[hagar]

I pick my auto TDI over the manual any day. It's faster, easier to drive in town and more practical. Sure I take a 5mpg hit, but I don't care, it's still better than 90% of the other cars on the road. As far as offroad, I had 2 manual Nissan Pathfinders, and 2 auto Montero Sports, and I would say hands down to the auto. Much more controllable. This experience comes from hunting coyotes and camping all over Arizona for almost 15 years, in some of the most rugged and desolate areas you can imagine. And I grew up in a country where probably 80% of cars were stickshifts, and you could not catch me dead with an auto before the age of 35. Either we grow wise or lazy when we get older, you tell me!

 

[moondawg]

BTW: My next CJ 5 rebuild (the one currently with a manual) is hopefully getting a 5.9ci 12V, Cummins diesel, along with a well-built auto. I am looking for the donor vehicle right now.

With that combo you'll be able to save money on the rear driveshaft by simply connecting the transfer case output shaft directly to the diff!

Good luck!

moondawg

 

[Brock_from_WI]

However, Brock from WI does some crazy experiments for MPGs (disconnecting his alternator, for instance ), so his numbers definitely shouldn't be treated as typical.

Nope I am not typical, that’s for sure Just ask my wife. Some of us drive a little more conservatively

Ok, OK, to me DSG isn't an "auto". When someone mentions an auto I think of the typical auto trannies from the 80's, 90s before DSG or CVT. Besides if you have to shift yourself, like the paddles on an F1, it's not an auto is it?

I should have stated that in a different way, until I see autos, DSG, CVT or otherwise beating the manual numbers regularly in MPG, I will choose a manual if I can, that is the same make same engine. But we can see in our monthly competition the manual still beat any of the other transmissions VW has for mileage so far.

 

[bhtooefr]

I consider the DSG in VW's implementation an automatic transmission, because it has the capability to automatically shift for you.

My definition of automatic transmission is "transmission that shifts automatically", not "transmission that has planetary gears and a torque converter." For one thing, the 1970's Hondamatic is an example of a transmission that has planetary gears and a torque converter, yet is a (clutchless, obviously) manual!

 

[burpod]

the auto tranny car warms up a bit faster than a manual tranny, at least that's been my experience...

 

[tledbetter]

Nice I've never been able to put it so eloquently.

Other times when an auto is a good thing to have: when you know your wife CANNOT pay attention to the road AND worry about being in the right gera. Very nerve-racking.

Another interesting tidbit (just got the new DieselPower mag): Dodge and Chevy actually derate their engines for 2007 when they come with a manual.
Dodge auto 350 HP @ 3013 rpm, 650 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm
Dodge Manual 350 HP @ 3013 rpm, 610 lb-ft @ 1400 rpm
Chevy auto 360 HP @ 3200 rpm, 650 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm
Chevy Manual 300 HP @ 3000 rpm, 520 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm

Look at the hit you take with the Chevy! No idea what they are using for a manual transmission but it (and the clutch) must not be up to the task.
Maybe this is their way of phasing out the manuals??

The reason for the de-rate is probably not the clutch or tranny as it is drive line and driver error (clutch dump with heavy load in low gear kills rear ends and u-joints!). It is the "shock" that a manual transmission can transmit to the drive line with inproper operation.

Chevy has been doing this on there gasser for some time, they do not offer a 5.3L v-8 in a manual tranny in a 1/2 ton, only the 4.8L.

 

[sunline]

small hit on mpg not 20, not even close. 04 jetta pd and get 42 avg worst ever was 35 towing a 1000lb trailer. slow down to 60 and closer to 50

 

[bhtooefr]

20 is the worst I've heard of. That doesn't mean that 20 is the normal MPG hit.

 

[Zero10]

The automatic transmission does indeed have a locking torque converter, but it still suffers a mileage hit for a second reason, it has a planetary gear set. This will always be a less efficient gear set than what the manual transmissions use, but it is useful in other ways, and definately has it's advantages.
That said, on the highway my automatic TDI will get within 10-15% of the mileage than the manual transmission cars get, and to get the numbers that I have read, they are probably driving much slower than I do. I have topped 50mpg in my TDI more than once, and it still returns over 30mpg towing a 3000+lb trailer through the mountains.
That said, I seem to get 35-ish mpg driving 100% city, but my daily commute has changed, and I now drive much more on the highway than I used to. I can no longer get accurate city numbers, this town is just too small.

 

[DIESELprogrammer]

With that combo you'll be able to save money on the rear driveshaft by simply connecting the transfer case output shaft directly to the diff! Good luck! moondawg

Thanks!

You’re right, rear driveline length and angle will be the main limiting factors. I once did a built 300ci I6 Ford matted to a C4 swap into a CJ5. The driveline came out pretty good with that.

If it can’t happen, I have a F350 4x4 that would love a Cummins conversion. Perhaps its 7.3IDI could make it to the CJ.