The settlement as proposed is complete BS

Jmartz

Well-known member
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Jul 21, 2014
Location
New Jersey
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2015 Golf SEL
I know I can do this in 2018 but I would love to know what the numbers will be 2 years from now... I drive a lot. I really don't want to have to treat this like a lease. I even have the extended warranty. Should I cancel that? I think I spent over 2 grand on it. Should I just not go over 36k miles so the extended warranty doesn't take effect so I can get a full refund? Is there a cancellation fee that I could avoid by canceling at the time of trade in?

Still a lot of questions... The judge gag ordered this discussion which means they don't want insight. The fact that you could not even find the comments link until today even though this was announced weeks ago is pretty troubling.
 

kjclow

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Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
NPR this morning had interviews with several TDI owners reacting to the settlement terms. All said they were satisfied, most were going to sell their cars back to VW.

Looking at the thread of calculated buybacks it seems most people are going to end up having driven their cars for free or nearly free, exclusive of fuel, maintenance, insurance, and taxes, for the time they've owned it. The exception of this are people who are impossibly upside down in their car loan, or drive a '15 Passat, where the numbers don't seem to work so well.

Free use of the car for its life with you seems to me to be pretty good compensation. Driving my '12 Golf for the three and a half years I owned it cost me about $7K in depreciation, by contrast.

I predicted people here were going to be unhappy, because many had unrealistic expectations.
I've calculated that the 11 Golf will end up costing me about $1000 a year for the four years that we've owned it. Only out of pocket expenses were the 40K service, which the dealer card will cover, and a new set of tires. The JSW looks like it's around $2000 a year and with more service costs. I'd like more for the JSW but will probably wait another 18 months until I decide what to do with it.
 

DanB36

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Savannah, GA
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2014 Q5 Prestige TDI, Monsoon Gray
The judge gag ordered this discussion which means they don't want insight.
(citation needed)

The fact that you could not even find the comments link until today even though this was announced weeks ago is pretty troubling.
This settlement was announced exactly eight days ago, on June 28. Not "weeks ago".
 

MichVW

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14tdipassat

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kjclow

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I'd be interested to know if there's a secret codicil to the settlement that if VW doesn't meet the 85% target (or possibly regardless, with 85% being a smokescreen), once the time frame for fix/buyback has elapsed, the EPA will require states to refuse registration for unfixed cars. Owners of as-yet-unfixed cars can still get them fixed by VW at their own expense, with no compensation for the expense of the fix or loss of use of an unfixed (and therefore unregisterable) car. Tie this in with a ban on affected owners suing VW - after all, they should have taken the fix/buyback while it was available. This would get all the affected cars either fixed or off the road - what the government wants - and consumers don't matter.

Of course, a secret codicil would be secret, so owners won't find out about it until it's too late.
The fines to VW for not getting 85% complience are spelled out in the court documents. I've seen them posted in other threads, so not going to repeat that here.
 

fredthe

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The fact that you could not even find the comments link until today even though this was announced weeks ago is pretty troubling.
The comment period for the DOJ settlement only opened today, and runs for 30 days. It's not unusual to take some time before the notice is published in the Federal Register (these requirements are totally outside of the control of the court).
 

r11

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As a forum with 100s that dont feel good about the proposed settlement, we gotta be able to put together a nice letter. Print it, put in your VIN and mail it to the 3 addresses provided to us already.

I've seen some essays here that are simply too watery and way too long. Needs to be half a pager at most.

Key points:

- We're not selling or trading in, cars are being taken away from us
- 99% of us will need another car after trade-in. You can not buy a car at "clean trade-in", you'd have to pay retail. The buyback has to be based at "clean retail" as of Sept '15
- Plenty of people drove these at 20K/Y and more, but precisely of high fuel economy that these were advertised at. There should not be penalty for miles.
- Many of us would have happily driven these for another 10 years. At 50Mpg, we would have saved thousands more. This loss of use and fuel saving needs to be accounted for.
- On top of this, VW must pay to us some damages. It is nice that government is getting 5B, but very little is made available to compensate us, the owners.

Simple calcs for #4. 10Y @ 20K is 200K miles. At $3/gallons and 50Mpg, it is 4000 gallons of fuel, $12000. With gasoline cars, getting avg of 25Mpg, it would have been $24000. We would have saved $12000 - where's reasonable compensation for this ? Those that drive higher miles must actually be paid more, as they stand to loose the most through loss of use of high-mpg car.
 

r11

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And they will admit few folx in for oral arguments at the hearing. Hassle for most of us as it will be in LA, but few local guys should definitely request to be heard. The docs specify the procedure to request appearance
 

dropnosky

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Location
RI
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2000 Jetta 6 speed, 2012 Passat DSG
As a forum with 100s that dont feel good about the proposed settlement, we gotta be able to put together a nice letter. Print it, put in your VIN and mail it to the 3 addresses provided to us already.

I've seen some essays here that are simply too watery and way too long. Needs to be half a pager at most.

Key points:

- We're not selling or trading in, cars are being taken away from us
- 99% of us will need another car after trade-in. You can not buy a car at "clean trade-in", you'd have to pay retail. The buyback has to be based at "clean retail" as of Sept '15
- Plenty of people drove these at 20K/Y and more, but precisely of high fuel economy that these were advertised at. There should not be penalty for miles.
- Many of us would have happily driven these for another 10 years. At 50Mpg, we would have saved thousands more. This loss of use and fuel saving needs to be accounted for.
- On top of this, VW must pay to us some damages. It is nice that government is getting 5B, but very little is made available to compensate us, the owners.

Simple calcs for #4. 10Y @ 20K is 200K miles. At $3/gallons and 50Mpg, it is 4000 gallons of fuel, $12000. With gasoline cars, getting avg of 25Mpg, it would have been $24000. We would have saved $12000 - where's reasonable compensation for this ? Those that drive higher miles must actually be paid more, as they stand to loose the most through loss of use of high-mpg car.

a lot of this is arguable. for starters how do you intend to prove cars are being taken away from you if you have the option to opt out of this entire settlement?

Lets say I want my fuel economy and power, so I don't get it fixed and I don't sell it back and I don't take a dime. My reading of the settlement would indicate this is a real option
 
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bobgolf2004

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Madison, Wisconsin USA
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2018 Camry Hybrid LE
The proposed settlement does NOTHING to compensate owners for the fraud and deception that VW perpetrated on them, UNLESS they are willing to give up their car in its current form (buyback now, 'fix', if one is ever approved, or buyback later). The settlement as it is proposed therefore completely fails to meet the goal stated in its first sentence: ”The goal of the Volkswagen Class Settlement Program is to compensate everyone who owned or leased a Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (”Eligible Vehicle”) on September 18, 2015 (the date the emissions allegations became public), or who now owns an eligible vehicle. ”
I urge every owner to use the comment period and voice their opposition to the deal as currently proposed.
VW Owner: "Judge, I oppose the settlement."

Judge: "Why do you oppose the settlement?"

VW Owner: "The settlement is a fraud. It does nothing, contrary to the stated goal of the settlement, to compensate the owner for the fraud and deception perpetrated by VW on the unsuspecting buyer of an affected VW."

Judge: "O.K. Tell me what I should do."

VW Owner: "I don't know...That's your job."

Judge: "Tell me what you consider to be a fair settlement."

VW Owner: "That's your job."

Judge: "How does the proposed settlement fail to compensate you?"

VW Owner: "That's your job to know that."

Judge: "You can opt-out of the settlement and pursue whatever claims you feel you have directly against VW on your own."

VW Owner: "The only way I get anything out of the settlement is if I turn the car in or agree to have it fixed. If I choose to keep the car and not have it fixed, I get nothing."

Judge: "If you keep the car and choose not to have it fixed, it is not clear to me what harm has been inflicted upon you that requires you be compensated."

VW Owner: "I should be allowed to keep the car if I want to, and receive compensation."

Judge: "So, are you trying to tell me that the settlement should allow you to keep and drive a car that you now know pollutes excessively, and VW should compensate you for knowingly driving a car that pollutes excessively?"

VW Owner: "Yes, that seems fair to me."

Judge: "Well, it seems to me that the terms of the settlement does in fact compensate you for keeping and continuing to drive a car that you know pollutes excessively. If VW does not meet the goal of buy back or fixing at least 85% of the affected vehicles, VW is subject to additional penalties. To avoid those penalties, VW may offer you more money than the settlement provides in order to avoid penalties. Of course, there is no guarantee that if you go that route that you will get anything other than to keep the car. It's your job to know what works best for you."

VW Owner: " I don't think the settlement compensates me if I decide to keep the car and not have it fixed."

Judge: "It does provide compensation to you no matter what you decide to do. You have to decide for yourself which option provides you with the best form of compensation."

VW Owner: "No, my job is to tell other people what they should think and feel. Your job is to agree with me. After all, no one else agrees with me"

Judge: "Is that all?"

VW Owner: "No, it's just the beginning..."
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
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'13 Jetta TDI
The butt hurt is strong in this crowd

Does VW need to include a "Safe Space" or "Hurt Feelings" clause in the settlement?

The settlement as outlined is pretty darn fair.....the expectations of some is not so realistic unfortunately
Yup. I think they made it clear early on (early interviews with Ken Feinberg) that they intended offers to be fair, equitable, etc. for the mostpeople.

He specifically said that for most people..."this is a business decision..." and for most people...that's all it is. Ex. My case...If someone is going to (in theory) give you ~$21.8k for a three year old car that you paid $21-22k for...you sell it.

Despite the complaints here, I would bet that they'll hit their 85% buyback or fix mark.
 

kjclow

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Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
As a forum with 100s that dont feel good about the proposed settlement, we gotta be able to put together a nice letter. Print it, put in your VIN and mail it to the 3 addresses provided to us already.

I've seen some essays here that are simply too watery and way too long. Needs to be half a pager at most.

Key points:

- We're not selling or trading in, cars are being taken away from us
- 99% of us will need another car after trade-in. You can not buy a car at "clean trade-in", you'd have to pay retail. The buyback has to be based at "clean retail" as of Sept '15
- Plenty of people drove these at 20K/Y and more, but precisely of high fuel economy that these were advertised at. There should not be penalty for miles.
- Many of us would have happily driven these for another 10 years. At 50Mpg, we would have saved thousands more. This loss of use and fuel saving needs to be accounted for.
- On top of this, VW must pay to us some damages. It is nice that government is getting 5B, but very little is made available to compensate us, the owners.

Simple calcs for #4. 10Y @ 20K is 200K miles. At $3/gallons and 50Mpg, it is 4000 gallons of fuel, $12000. With gasoline cars, getting avg of 25Mpg, it would have been $24000. We would have saved $12000 - where's reasonable compensation for this ? Those that drive higher miles must actually be paid more, as they stand to loose the most through loss of use of high-mpg car.
The only statement I can wholly agree with is the second one. If someone accepts the buyout than it should be a retail, not trade in value. In looking at the Golf value of about 21K, it will take some work and probably some cash to find a suitable, at least to my wife, replacement.
 

flee

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Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
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2002 Jetta GLS wagon
And they will admit few folx in for oral arguments at the hearing. Hassle for most of us as it will be in LA, but few local guys should definitely request to be heard. The docs specify the procedure to request appearance
I only read the court address that is in San Francisco.
Is there a hearing in L.A? Which docs have that info?
 

dropnosky

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Location
RI
TDI
2000 Jetta 6 speed, 2012 Passat DSG
lets chat about some of your points-

As a forum with 100s that dont feel good about the proposed settlement, we gotta be able to put together a nice letter. Print it, put in your VIN and mail it to the 3 addresses provided to us already.

I've seen some essays here that are simply too watery and way too long. Needs to be half a pager at most.

Key points:
- We're not selling or trading in, cars are being taken away from us
How are they being taken away? If you have the choice to opt out, how can you prove this point?

- 99% of us will need another car after trade-in. You can not buy a car at "clean trade-in", you'd have to pay retail. The buyback has to be based at "clean retail" as of Sept '15
This I agree with your argument

- Plenty of people drove these at 20K/Y and more, but precisely of high fuel economy that these were advertised at. There should not be penalty for miles.
why? every car every where is penalized on mileage when resold. Why should this truth change for this situation?

- Many of us would have happily driven these for another 10 years. At 50Mpg, we would have saved thousands more. This loss of use and fuel saving needs to be accounted for.
How will you prove what people might have done with these cars and how that should be monetarily rewarded? Whats to stop every single VW owner from saying they would keep the car for 30 years and put 600k on it? How would you prevent a judge from reaching that same conclusion and just tossing the argument?

- On top of this, VW must pay to us some damages. It is nice that government is getting 5B, but very little is made available to compensate us, the owners.
Damages for what? they are going to want to know why damages should be paid out on top of this buyback package. What damage has been done to the individual owner that requires money?

Simple calcs for #4. 10Y @ 20K is 200K miles. At $3/gallons and 50Mpg, it is 4000 gallons of fuel, $12000. With gasoline cars, getting avg of 25Mpg, it would have been $24000. We would have saved $12000 - where's reasonable compensation for this ? Those that drive higher miles must actually be paid more, as they stand to loose the most through loss of use of high-mpg car.
again, the question of how you prove what people might have done with the car if they weren't selling it back remains outstanding. I could see the argument for cars that already have high mileage on them, but there a likely retort is those owners already benefited from the fuel savings the cheat provided, so again you would need to prove some kind of hardship or fiscal damage to gain ground. What examples can you demonstrate?
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Location
Virginia
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'13 Jetta TDI
And they will admit few folx in for oral arguments at the hearing. Hassle for most of us as it will be in LA, but few local guys should definitely request to be heard. The docs specify the procedure to request appearance
That is going to be awesome, lol. Maybe they'll televise that. If not...I'll get a kick out of scrolling through the transcript. "They only offered me $21.8K for my ~$15k car!" 'Murica!
 

grawk

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Location
Oak Ridge, TN
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'14 JSW TDI (used)
if you were going to keep the car for 10 years and drive it 20k miles a year, you can still do this. You don't even have to pay an "I'm willfully continuing to pollute instead of getting it fixed" fee.

You can even opt in for the settlement, pick the repair option, and then wait to see what repair option comes up. If they have a repair, you can select it, then take the money, and have a dpf delete done. If the repair doesn't happen, you can then choose to opt out of the settlement, and continue to drive your car. You're out nothing.
 

GyroRon

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Feb 21, 2014
Location
Fort Mill SC
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2013 Jetta tdi
Let me just say I am super happy with what it looks like Ill be getting for my car. I bought my 2013 Jetta in feb 2014, used from the original owner in a private sale. Paid 18 grand cash.

The car had 8000 miles or so on it when I got it and it now has 52000 miles on it. Ive had to spend a whopping 75$ on a oil change and another 150$ or so on a new tire after my sidewall got slashed going up a rough gravel road. I spent another 150-200$ for a trailer hitch and maybe another 150$ to have the windows tinted.

I used the goodwill card service card to pay for the DSG service and another oil change. I still have maybe 150 to 200$ left on that card too. And the 500$ visa card more than covers my hitch and tint and oil change expenses.

So I have literally right around 18300$ into the car including taxes and tags and title fees when I bought it.

According to the chart I saw, I should be getting 21,670$ when I turn it in. Thats a PROFIT of 3,370$ When does that ever happen!!!! Drive a basically new car for over 2 and half years, and get thousands more then you paid for it.... How in the world can I complain ?
 

CraziFuzzy

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Jurupa Valley
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Still a lot of questions... The judge gag ordered this discussion which means they don't want insight. The fact that you could not even find the comments link until today even though this was announced weeks ago is pretty troubling.
There are 3 different addresses to send comments/complaints to in the original long-form notice posted 8 days ago. One for the court, one for the defense counsel, and one for the class counsel.
 

r11

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Mar 6, 2012
Location
NJ
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2012 Passat TDI SE 6MT (BB'd), 2015 Passat TDI SE 6MT
Let me just say I am super happy with what it looks like Ill be getting for my car. I bought my 2013 Jetta in feb 2014, used from the original owner in a private sale. Paid 18 grand cash.

The car had 8000 miles or so on it when I got it and it now has 52000 miles on it. Ive had to spend a whopping 75$ on a oil change and another 150$ or so on a new tire after my sidewall got slashed going up a rough gravel road. I spent another 150-200$ for a trailer hitch and maybe another 150$ to have the windows tinted.

I used the goodwill card service card to pay for the DSG service and another oil change. I still have maybe 150 to 200$ left on that card too. And the 500$ visa card more than covers my hitch and tint and oil change expenses.

So I have literally right around 18300$ into the car including taxes and tags and title fees when I bought it.

According to the chart I saw, I should be getting 21,670$ when I turn it in. Thats a PROFIT of 3,370$ When does that ever happen!!!! Drive a basically new car for over 2 and half years, and get thousands more then you paid for it.... How in the world can I complain ?
So dont. Au contraire, send an email full of lov and appreciation for the non-deserved good fortune that poured on you.

Not all of us are feel as lucky or willing to forgive/forget/move on based on the number$ offered so far.
 

UnclesCamino

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Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Location
Northern Cambria PA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6M 2DR
This is my public input letter.

"To whom it may concern,


I am writing in regards to the proposed buy backs of the Volkswagen diesel emissions class action suit, case 3:15-md-02672-CRB. As an owner of a 2011 Volkswagen Golf TDI, I have some concerns on the proposed buy back amounts. The amount is based on a NADA "clean trade" value as opposed to a "clean retail" value plus penalties for the fraud. I am not asking to trade my car in to Volkswagen, they are proposing to buy my car due fraudulent activities. If I am to buy a replacement car, I will not be able to purchase said car for "clean trade" value but I expect to have to pay retail value. This proposed offer also does not take into account the sales tax and fees that I will have to pay to purchase a replacement vehicle.


There is the option of keeping the car and wait for a fix but, due to the age of my car, this fix is highly unlikely to come during my cars useable lifespan. I also run the risk of being involved in a major accident with the vehicle, the insurance pay out would be very diminished due to the sharp drop in value these cars suffered due to this fraud.


Lastly there is a deduction for mileage of the vehicle. These vehicles are sold primarily to individuals who drive considerable miles per year. The mileage adjustments for NADA are for a general base of cars and the value of the TDI does not diminish as greatly as other vehicles due to higher mileage. Volkswagens fraud is fraud, plain and simple, the number of miles you have driven does not diminish the amount of fraud that was perpetrated on the owners.


A similar buyback was performed by Toyota several years ago for a rust issue on the frames of a truck. This rust was not caused by something that Toyota did with malicious intent, rather by poor design and material. Toyota offered owners full current retail price plus 50% to purchase the vehicle back. While this was a safety issue it was not knowingly fraudulent.


Thank you for listening to my concerns,"

I know some of you think VW did nothing wrong and we are all just whiners and looking for a payday. VW did do something wrong and they should offer fair compensation plus penalties. If VW had my car on their lot on September 14, 2015 they would be asking more than $10,000 dollars for it.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
There are 3 different addresses to send comments/complaints to in the original long-form notice posted 8 days ago. One for the court, one for the defense counsel, and one for the class counsel.
Can you publish the addresses on here? thanks
 

14tdipassat

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Location
SE La
TDI
'14 Passat SE 6M
This is my public input letter.

"To whom it may concern,


I am writing in regards to the proposed buy backs of the Volkswagen diesel emissions class action suit, case 3:15-md-02672-CRB. As an owner of a 2011 Volkswagen Golf TDI, I have some concerns on the proposed buy back amounts. The amount is based on a NADA "clean trade" value as opposed to a "clean retail" value plus penalties for the fraud. I am not asking to trade my car in to Volkswagen, they are proposing to buy my car due fraudulent activities. If I am to buy a replacement car, I will not be able to purchase said car for "clean trade" value but I expect to have to pay retail value. This proposed offer also does not take into account the sales tax and fees that I will have to pay to purchase a replacement vehicle.


There is the option of keeping the car and wait for a fix but, due to the age of my car, this fix is highly unlikely to come during my cars useable lifespan. I also run the risk of being involved in a major accident with the vehicle, the insurance pay out would be very diminished due to the sharp drop in value these cars suffered due to this fraud.


Lastly there is a deduction for mileage of the vehicle. These vehicles are sold primarily to individuals who drive considerable miles per year. The mileage adjustments for NADA are for a general base of cars and the value of the TDI does not diminish as greatly as other vehicles due to higher mileage. Volkswagens fraud is fraud, plain and simple, the number of miles you have driven does not diminish the amount of fraud that was perpetrated on the owners.


A similar buyback was performed by Toyota several years ago for a rust issue on the frames of a truck. This rust was not caused by something that Toyota did with malicious intent, rather by poor design and material. Toyota offered owners full current retail price plus 50% to purchase the vehicle back. While this was a safety issue it was not knowingly fraudulent.


Thank you for listening to my concerns,"

I know some of you think VW did nothing wrong and we are all just whiners and looking for a payday. VW did do something wrong and they should offer fair compensation plus penalties. If VW had my car on their lot on September 14, 2015 they would be asking more than $10,000 dollars for it.
Careful... September 2015 Clean Trade + 20% +~$3000 is likely > Current Retail + 50% for many of us.

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong in principle. Or that something shouldn't be done for sales tax, etc. Just: careful what you wish for!
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Careful... September 2015 Clean Trade + 20% +~$3000 is likely > Current Retail + 50% for many of us.

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong in principle. Or that something shouldn't be done for sales tax, etc. Just: careful what you wish for!

I think you were just pointing out a typo... Yes... Unclescamino should change that!!!

I don't think anyone is arguing for "Current" clean retail value, but rather clean retail value from September 2015 + 20% + 2876.XX when VW was caught committing fraud (among other crimes).

Very simple. Instead of using NADA "Clean trade in" from September 2015, use NADA "Clean Retail" from September 2015. Everything else can remain the same as far as I am concerned. Although, I do take issue with some of the high dollar options being ignored by the NADA valuation website.
 
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bizzle

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May 21, 2013
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Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
If you haven't sent it yet then you can fix the typo "Volkswagen's fraud is fraud," although I'd rewrite that sentence entirely into something like, "Allowing Volkswagen to reduce compensation for their fraudulent behavior based on vehicle mileage sets a dangerous precedent of rewarding future scofflaws for hiding their fraudulent behavior better." or something along those lines.

Basically you want to express to the court that this kind of calculation rewards VW for the behavior they planned all along: crossing their fingers and hoping they wouldn't be found out long enough to the point where the economic hit wouldn't be significant enough to deter their behavior. The longer the vehicles are on the road, the better it becomes for VW under this kind of settlement.
 
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Diesl

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Chicago
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ksing44

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Location
Southeast PA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
I have to admit that getting the trade value for the car instead of the retail value is a disappointment. That's also compounded by the fact that you can't actually trade the car. You essential sell the car back and then have to pay tax on the full purchase price for the new car. As a result, you lose a bit on each part of the transaction. That does bother me.

I'm also at a bad place to sell the car. My 2010 has 133,00 miles so it's quite depreciated in both years and milage. It sounds like people in the newer cars can actually profit from driving the car for a few years. That's certainly not true for me. It's going to cost me a lot of money to get into a new car.

I'm also worried about the HPFP since I'm past the 120K extended warranty. If I could get the fix sooner than later and get the new extended warranty I think I'd be OK, but I feel like a sitting duck because something could happen before the buyback or the fix ever happen. Of course the worry about the HPFP isn't new to me. Just the way things are now it seems worse somehow and I feel trapped in a way.

Hopefully I'll be lucky. My car was pretty good so far. I also still like it very much. It's fun to drive and gets good mpg.
 
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