The Light truck market

CleverUserName

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NorCal
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2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT
very interesting, looks like the Mobil 1 oils are much lower burnoff..:eek:
Not anymore. The old CJ-4 Delvac ESP was primarily PAO and made from thicker base oils. It was the high percentage of PAO that gave it the impressive thermal properties like pour and flash point. I’m sure the NOACK value was 8% or less for that stuff. It was a leader in its class of HDEOs. The only oil remotely close to it now is Amsoil, Ravenol or Redline 5w40 which is $10-13 a quart.

However the new Delvac ESP is all group III and III+ with thinner base oils. I believe Mobil used the CK-4 rollout as an excuse to cheapen the formula and they are still “surfing” on its old reputation.

There is very little difference between the current CK-4/SN T6 and Delvac ESP.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I believe the Mobil1 5w-30 ESP still has a healthy dose of PAO base oil. It's not as cheap or widely available as T6, but I think it would also be a good oil for GM's 3.0 diesel.
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
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Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT
I believe the Mobil1 5w-30 ESP still has a healthy dose of PAO base oil. It's not as cheap or widely available as T6, but I think it would also be a good oil for GM's 3.0 diesel.
You’re referring to Mobil 1 ESP formula 5w30 and yes that oil does have impressive properties, another class leading product when it was introduced. However, it was also reformulated earlier this year. Now it is called Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 and just like Delvac 1 it is a shadow of its former self. The new ESP 5w30 is all Group III and III+ with less than 5% PAO according the new SDS.

Whatever ESP formula you still see for sale is new old stock. Anybody who likes this stuff should be stocking up before it’s gone for good.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
That's disappointing, but the new M1 5w30 esp still meets the pretty stringent 507 spec requirements, so that's something. I just think Noack volatility is highly overrated as an indicator of oil quality. 12.8% loss (@480°F)may be high for the euro passenger car oils, but it's fairly average among the HDEO's. You can find cheap monograde mineral oils with lower NOACK losses than top tier synthetics like Amsoil etc. Does that make them superior? No way. Here's one:

https://mag1.com/products/passenger-car-motor-oil/monograde-motor-oil/mag-1-sae-30-motor-oil/
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I just compared the specs of the new M1 5w30 esp vs. the old formula and it's not all bad news. While sulphated ash is a bit higher @ .8% vs. .6%, and flash point is a bit lower @ 239°C vs. 254°, the pour point is better @ -48°C vs. -45°, and most importantly the viscosity index is significantly better at 187 vs. 164. I really don't see any compelling reason to stock up on the old stuff.
 

woofie2

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Republic of Southern Illinois
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Former TDI owner
So I bit and bought a 2018 RAM Ecodiesel, as GM (Chevrolet) say their 2019 3L Diesel models are being delayed because of the EPA being closed by the government shutdown.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
maybe we need a separate thread now!
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Yup, the jeep gladiator keeps popping up. I think this is the third or fourth rendition of a jeep truck over the last 20 years. The CJ is also supposed to get the 3.0l diesel. I will believe both when I see them on the lot.
 

woofie2

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Former TDI owner
Yup, the jeep gladiator keeps popping up. I think this is the third or fourth rendition of a jeep truck over the last 20 years. The CJ is also supposed to get the 3.0l diesel. I will believe both when I see them on the lot.
yes, I also saw RAM was considering combing the 3.0L Diesel with their new eTorque hybrid system, That is an interesting configuration!
Basically a generator system that acts as a starter/electric assist motor.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
We've noticed that you can buy an F250 with the 6.7L Powerstroke for the same or less money than an F150 with the 3.0. Seems Ford needs to build some F150 diesels with less stuff than they are currently.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
We've noticed that you can buy an F250 with the 6.7L Powerstroke for the same or less money than an F150 with the 3.0. Seems Ford needs to build some F150 diesels with less stuff than they are currently.

Yep. If you want the diesel F150, you START at the Platinum trim level, which forces a Super Cab, so basically $46k, then they go up from there. Most F150 diesels MSRP over $60k. That is insane.

The Gladiator with the diesel box ticked won't be much different. I seriously do not understand how these companies expect people to pay for these things, but they do. Somehow. I suppose debt for life becomes a way of life. :(
 

woofie2

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Location
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Former TDI owner
Yep. If you want the diesel F150, you START at the Platinum trim level, which forces a Super Cab, so basically $46k, then they go up from there. Most F150 diesels MSRP over $60k. That is insane.
The Gladiator with the diesel box ticked won't be much different. I seriously do not understand how these companies expect people to pay for these things, but they do. Somehow. I suppose debt for life becomes a way of life. :(
I know the off year RAM Ecodiesel are all sitting at 55k, MSRP (give or take $5000) about the same for the 2017's but their discounted price was 40k.
while I was able to work out a decent deal and good value on my trade, the upgrade was worth it in the end.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yes, but FCA didn't force you into a higher trim level or cab configuration. If you wanted a base white Tradesman with the diesel, you could have ordered one.

No idea what they are doing for 2019 though, as the diesel is not listed anymore.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Speculation is that Ram will not offer a 2019 1500 diesel. Should help move remaining 18s before releasing the diesel in the recent redesign as a 20. Might also put a stop to the deep discounts on year old models.
 

woofie2

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Location
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Former TDI owner
Yes, but FCA didn't force you into a higher trim level or cab configuration. If you wanted a base white Tradesman with the diesel, you could have ordered one.
No idea what they are doing for 2019 though, as the diesel is not listed anymore.
True, but the selection is getting limited on the 2018 diesels, (searching only shows only 40 within 500 miles of me, any trim level)
my brother in law bought a 3500 crew cab, tradesman, manual transmission, base model, (its pretty basic)
I wanted a bighorn, but took the Laramie trim, largely because the price was almost the same as a 2016 used with 40k miles.

Speculation is that Ram will not offer a 2019 1500 diesel. Should help move remaining 18s before releasing the diesel in the recent redesign as a 20. Might also put a stop to the deep discounts on year old models.
Info on 2019 diesel is still there, but any specifications are hard to find. RAM did something similar to this in 2013 when I was shopping the RAM Ecodiesels because that was my preferred trade (over the Silverado I ended up settling with) but all the sudden all information disappeared. A couple months later it all came back, but by then I was out of the market.
I figured the new RAM Ecodiesel model would have good demand, no real discounts, and the chevy 5.3L offered good MPG on paper at 21MPG, then they adjusted it to 18MPG and I saw 13 most of the time.
 

ToBiN

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2013 Sportwagen TDI/M6; 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins/M6 Mega Cab; 2011 Jetta TDI/M6 (sold)
Hmm. Just wondering around looking for the lounge when I found this thread. Sorry I'm late to the party.

I too was looking at the Dodge EcoDiesels as a nice "pull your boat" or "small trailer" around 4 door family truck. I heard their mileage was mid 20s and people love them. In my research though I found the engines are hit and miss on reliability and they only started offering that configuration in 2014, where prices are still plenty high.

Its annoying that GM decided to offer the small diesel in the Colorado and Canyon. I would love to see a Silverado or Sierra with a 3.3L diesel (6.6 Dura cut in half). At least I could haul a full size vehicle on my flatbed car trailer or my 22 foot boat with a Silverado. Can't exactly do that with a small "Matchbox by Mattel" truck.

If Ford does end up putting a small-er Powerstroke in their F150, I feel they will be competing with themselves. They already offer the EcoBoost engine, which is very impressive and does not come with the "diesel tax" or strict diesel emissions regulations. Their 3.5L HO EcoBoost delivers 450/510 (Hp/Tq) while the 3.0L Diesel will deliver 250/440. Its really a toss up and may be a price decision for the consumer on which engine to have in their 4 door F150.

Personally, I'm trying to find a 2500 or 3500 Cummins Mega Cab because I have a family and a 24 foot enclosed trailer to haul on occasion. I really prefer the 5.9L HO for the MPGs, but if I get forced into a 6.7L it will need to be 2010 - 2013 to avoid DEF.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Why is it annoying that the Colorado/Canyon have a diesel option? They have a respectable 7600 lb tow rating. Not everyone needs a thirsty one ton magacab.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I would love to see a Silverado or Sierra with a 3.3L diesel (6.6 Dura cut in half). At least I could haul a full size vehicle on my flatbed car trailer or my 22 foot boat with a Silverado. Can't exactly do that with a small "Matchbox by Mattel" truck.
If Ford does end up putting a small-er Powerstroke in their F150, I feel they will be competing with themselves. They already offer the EcoBoost engine, which is very impressive and does not come with the "diesel tax" or strict diesel emissions regulations.
The F150 with a 3L V6 Powerstroke was launched last year. They're on dealer lots. And GM has a 3.0L inline six cylinder diesel that will be in this year's Silverado. Launch has been delayed by the government shutdown, because it created a work backlog at the EPA, allegedly.

Neither of those trucks are cheap. The 150s start in the 50s, Silverados will probably have similar pricing.
 

ToBiN

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Why is it annoying that the Colorado/Canyon have a diesel option? They have a respectable 7600 lb tow rating. Not everyone needs a thirsty one ton magacab.
Well, for one I didn't feel comfortable towing the enclosed trailer with a 2015 half ton 4 door Sierra at 8mpg, sure wouldn't want to even attempt to tow my boat with a Colorado or Canyon. When I towed the same trailer with my boosted 2003 Suburban (450hp/525tq), 5 mpg. Lesson learned, just because it can, doesn't mean it should.
At least with a Cummins, mega cab or not, I can stand to make double digit mpgs while towing 10,000 lbs. Most Cummins owners are making almost the same MPGs as the EcoDiesel (up to 24mpg), so why not just get the more powerful, longer lasting proven 5.9L HO?
And if I'm going to pay $50k for a truck (which I wouldn't), it should be able to tow any damn thing I want, up to maximum towing capacity that is. :D

I'm trying to stay under $15k for this Cummins. It will probably have high miles but I will expect that for anything under $20k.
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The heavier duty diesel trucks are clearly a better value, provided you need that capability. They don't get 24 mpg- not even close. Expect about 16 mpg from a 6.7 cummins. I don't see how that makes the smaller ones "annoying". More options are good in my book. If anything is annoying, it's the cost premium of the diesel trucks. And the fuel.
 
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ToBiN

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Feb 9, 2017
Location
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2013 Sportwagen TDI/M6; 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins/M6 Mega Cab; 2011 Jetta TDI/M6 (sold)
The heavier duty diesel trucks are clearly a better value, provided you need that capability. They don't get 24 mpg- not even close. Expect about 16 mpg from a 6.7 cummins. I don't see how that makes the smaller ones "annoying". More options are good in my book. If anything is annoying, it's the cost premium of the diesel trucks. And the fuel.
Exactly the reason I really want a 5.9L HO (2006-2007). Many stories of 20 - 26 mpg in the 3rd gen dailies. I like the look of the 2010+ but dont like the mpg of the 6.7L.

I grew up in a "Ford family of fine automobiles", I just got tired of working on them. Fell in love with my Chevrolets, but not keen on the Duramax mpgs or cabin space on older LBZ trucks. This will be the first Dodge Im actually "looking" for.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I don't see how that makes the smaller ones "annoying". More options are good in my book. If anything is annoying, it's the cost premium of the diesel trucks. And the fuel.
For us it came down to comfort and price. The Canyon rode really stiff and the leather seats had no give. Before we sat down for the final negotiation, the Ram was already being offered less than the Canyon. Part of the issue is/was supply. That particular Canyon was the only long box diesel within 100 miles.
 

ToBiN

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2013 Sportwagen TDI/M6; 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins/M6 Mega Cab; 2011 Jetta TDI/M6 (sold)
For us it came down to comfort and price. The Canyon rode really stiff and the leather seats had no give. Before we sat down for the final negotiation, the Ram was already being offered less than the Canyon. Part of the issue is/was supply. That particular Canyon was the only long box diesel within 100 miles.
That is one thing I am not looking forward to, that stiff ride. I do not like the F250/350s for similar issue. Which is why I'm drawn to my GMs, for the ride.

I guess I just need to do a 5.9L HO swap on my Escalade ESV and beef up the rear suspension. Then I get the front half as a good ride but have the suspension in the rear to haul the trailers. Besides the "Cadillac" sticker on the back window with a Cummins "C", nobody would be the wiser! ;)
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Exactly the reason I really want a 5.9L HO (2006-2007). Many stories of 20 - 26 mpg in the 3rd gen dailies.

Everyone loves a good story :) . Expect about 16 mpg from the 5.9 Cummins too.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
There is a HUGE variation.

A manual trans 2WD regular cab 2500 can tag mid 20s easily. A slushbox 4WD 3500 extended cab dually, not so much. Same engine.
 

ToBiN

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:D
Show me the fuel log book, those are the only numbers that mean anything.
Agree. I hand check my tank average at every fill up. Been researching 3/4 ton diesel mpgs and sorting between those that look at the liar on the dash and those that actually do the calculations based on miles divided by gallons. I know a handful of fellas locally that drive their dodges to and from work everyday that make the 22-24 mpg tank average.
 

woofie2

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Former TDI owner
There is a HUGE variation.
A manual trans 2WD regular cab 2500 can tag mid 20s easily. A slushbox 4WD 3500 extended cab dually, not so much. Same engine.
brother in law just got a 2108 3500 crew cab, single rear axle, manual base tradesman(vinyl floors) 4x4, it shows 20MPG at 70 MPH on the highway.
I am averaging 21 MPG daily over the two weeks I have been in my 1500 Laramie ecodiesel and got 23MPG doing 80 on the interstate. (this pinball weather sucks the mpg down about a half mpg per day daily driving) below 30*F.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The Cummins lie-o-meters are notorious for being 4-5 mpg optimistic. It takes hand calculating many tankfuls to get any kind of accuracy. I could tag 55 mpg on the mfd in my Golf, but in real world use it averaged more like 42 mpg.
 
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