The Light truck market

woofie2

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Lacking the Amarok, or a legitimate VW option...

So I have been looking at the 1500 series diesel tucks, (yes, I know they can be had bigger(2500/3500), but I drive it daily, and there are smaller(Canyon/Colorado) need the space and hauling)

Dodge Ecodiesel is king in this space, largely because they have 5 years head start on everyone else. (and it is a former MB diesel engine from VM Motori)

Ford F-150 Power stroke, new 3.0L diesel

GM/Chevy 1500 new 3.0L inline 6 Duramax

All are targeted around 30MPG highway, and the 2019's are playing the we are releasing our specs last so we can be king. (RAM is holding out)
(been riding my 2013 Silverado, waiting and wanting, had wanted a 2013 RAM diesel, but could not hold out for them to be released)

Anyone have any information or thoughts?

I am leaning hard on a Ram Ecodiesel largely because they are proven, and seem to be easily serviced locally.

my online diggings-
http://www.thedrive.com/news/24073/...c-sierra-1500-diesel-specs-potentially-leaked
https://www.tfltruck.com/2018/10/3-0-liter-duramax-figures-leaked/
oh- http://www.thedrive.com/news/23711/...engines-for-2019-jeep-wrangler-are-on-the-way


Jeep just threw their hat in to the light truck marketplace by saying their new Gladiator will have the 3.0L Diesel option.... :eek: (same as the RAM)
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/11/20181130-gladiator.html
 
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Tin Man

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With cars being made for people shorter than me and harder to get in and out of, a light duty diesel truck may be in my future.

TM
 

woofie2

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With cars being made for people shorter than me and harder to get in and out of, a light duty diesel truck may be in my future.

TM
Same issue, being 6'3" a VW 2 door has enough leg and head room for me, but the 4-doors were a little cramped to get in and out of.
add in a growing family, and a car is impractical for more than daily use.
Travel with 5 people and gear for a week is a challenge in a van or car, but a truck with a bed cover, lots of space for extras.

been rocking a Silverado since 2013, 100k miles later and I am shopping again, trying to decide if I want to risk a first run GM or go to a dodge.
 

tikal

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Are these trucks 'medium duty' diesel or there is no technical difference to light duty?
 
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CleverUserName

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The V Motori 3.0L in the EcoDiesel is called the L630. It shares nothing with the MB Bluetec 3.0L found in the sprinter vans. They are completely different engines with different lineage. Both are crap for different reasons with bad track records.

If your actually considering buying an Ecodiesel then you haven't done your homework. There is a 100+ page thread of people who had engine failures, usually bottom end and rod bearings but not all. The Ram Ecodiesel was a great idea but FCA utterly failed in their execution. FCA should have used a small Cummins V6 like in the original conceptual design.

The Canyon/Colorado 2.8 Duramax has a higher payload rating and similar GVWR/Max Tow rating as a Ram Ecodiesel. They have a 6.2' bed available and will get you 30 MPGs in a 4x4 and 32+ in a 2wd.

The Canyon/Colorado 2.8 has the same tow rating as the new GM 1500 3.0 Duramax. Just under 8,000 Lbs.

The new GM 1500 and F150 Diesel are basically the same price as a full size HD 2500 V8 diesel in similar trim.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I purchased my 2017 Ecodiesel in February of this year. At almost 15k miles, I'm loving it. yes, there are 100+ pages discussing failures of the 3.0 liter VM diesel. The current guess is about 4% failures. Higher than the VW HPFP failures and how many pages and different threads have we had on that specific issue?

My truck is a 4x4 crew cab with the 3.92 axle for higher towing rating. We are planning on getting a travel trailer when we retire and seeing our great countries. That lowers my mileage a little. My 7 mile commute also doesn't help but my lifetime average is 22 mpg with the highest tank of almost all highway cruising (70-75 mph) was 26.5 mpg.

I have the Laramie package, so pretty well loaded. My two favorite options are the heated steering wheel and the cooled seats.

My wife's great idea was that when I traveled, with or without her, to rent a truck. Since September of last year, I drove all three brands a couple of times and various miles each. Shortest was probably two days and about 70 miles. The unloaded ride between the big three 1500 trucks is vastly different. Ram is by far the smoothest and the most comfortable seats. The Ford was next but was substantially higher priced for similar options. Chevy (GM) seats were the worst and the truck also handled like a truck. IMHO, it needed at least 100 pounds of dead weight in the bed to smooth the ride. The Canyon/Colorado suffers from many of the same issues as their big brothers. Fit and finish on the Ram rentals was also better than either the Ford or Chevy.
 

woofie2

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I purchased my 2017 Ecodiesel in February of this year. At almost 15k miles, I'm loving it. yes, there are 100+ pages discussing failures of the 3.0 liter VM diesel. The current guess is about 4% failures. Higher than the VW HPFP failures and how many pages and different threads have we had on that specific issue?
Yes I have dug in on some of those, the issues appear to be "minimized" software updates, or at least delayed some, later shifting and higher revving to reduce engine lugging.
(that's what an extended warranty is to help cover right?)

My wife's great idea was that when I traveled, with or without her, to rent a truck. Since September of last year, I drove all three brands a couple of times and various miles each. Shortest was probably two days and about 70 miles. The unloaded ride between the big three 1500 trucks is vastly different. Ram is by far the smoothest and the most comfortable seats. The Ford was next but was substantially higher priced for similar options. Chevy (GM) seats were the worst and the truck also handled like a truck. IMHO, it needed at least 100 pounds of dead weight in the bed to smooth the ride. The Canyon/Colorado suffers from many of the same issues as their big brothers. Fit and finish on the Ram rentals was also better than either the Ford or Chevy.
Weird, the Ram tradesman they gave me as a loaner from the Chevy dealership when my Silverado was in the shop, rode rough, but got about the same MPG as my Silverado, accelerated like a scalded dog, and had long legs. Both trucks are crewcab trucks with the mid sized v8(5.3/5.7L), my silverado has the z71 package, so suspension was upgraded from the factory, but has 90k miles on it. The Fords I have ridden in or driven were always "truck feeling" rough, and hard on dental work.
Figured I need to drive a Bighorn before shopping off the Chevy. (coworker has a 2016 bighorn said it rides much better than his F150 ever did)

Back in the day my 2003 Jetta TDI I was getting over 50 mpg on the highway, but those days are over needing to haul 5 people with 2 in kids seats.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
You'll find lots of room for cars seats in the back of any of the full sized crew cabs. I don't have to deal with that on a daily basis anymore but it was nice to be able to stand up in the back while getting my granddaughter's car seat in place. My daughter also liked that she could stand up and strap her kid in. Not having to reach through and across has benefits, especially when you get to be my age. If you're putting three in the back, I'd recommend that you stick with the bench in the front. Gives room for another adult, or maybe baby sitter, to accompany you for some trips. Most of the brands have a huge armrest that comes down when you don't need the seat space. Since it's mostly just the two of us, we opted for the split bucket seats that are both heated and cooled.
 

wensteph

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GM hasn't released the 3.0L in the 1500 yet. Supposed to be "early next year" (2019), but I've had GM salesmen tell me 1Q, 2Q and I read online 4Q.

I also don't think Ram has released their new 3.0L either, but I don't keep up with them.

Short version is Ford has the only 1/2 ton diesel on the road now.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
GM hasn't released the 3.0L in the 1500 yet. Supposed to be "early next year" (2019), but I've had GM salesmen tell me 1Q, 2Q and I read online 4Q.

I also don't think Ram has released their new 3.0L either, but I don't keep up with them.

Short version is Ford has the only 1/2 ton diesel on the road now.
2019 Ram diesel is supposed to be out sometime in Q1. There are still new 18s being sold. I don't think the GM engine is fully certified yet, so probably the earliest it will hit lots is late Q2.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The V Motori 3.0L in the EcoDiesel is called the L630. It shares nothing with the MB Bluetec 3.0L found in the sprinter vans. They are completely different engines with different lineage. Both are crap for different reasons with bad track records.

If your actually considering buying an Ecodiesel then you haven't done your homework. There is a 100+ page thread of people who had engine failures, usually bottom end and rod bearings but not all. The Ram Ecodiesel was a great idea but FCA utterly failed in their execution. FCA should have used a small Cummins V6 like in the original conceptual design.

The Canyon/Colorado 2.8 Duramax has a higher payload rating and similar GVWR/Max Tow rating as a Ram Ecodiesel. They have a 6.2' bed available and will get you 30 MPGs in a 4x4 and 32+ in a 2wd.

The Canyon/Colorado 2.8 has the same tow rating as the new GM 1500 3.0 Duramax. Just under 8,000 Lbs.

The new GM 1500 and F150 Diesel are basically the same price as a full size HD 2500 V8 diesel in similar trim.
OM642 does have its issues, but the biggest on is oil cooler seal failure, which pretty much happens to every engine. Repair parts don't cost much but labor is a big deal. Otherwise these engines are pretty robust.

The VM engine in the Ecodiesel suffered from FCA trying to get the last possible MPG out of it at launch and specifying a 5w30 oil instead of the 5w40 they've since switched to. With Rotella in the crankcase it seems to not suffer the bearing failures a few (emphasis on few) engines suffered with the lighter oil.

The Ford V6 isn't really new: It's a revision of the Lion V6 that's in Range and Land Rovers. IIRC rods and bearings were strengthened to help it withstand heavier use when towing.

Regarding light trucks in general. I know people like them but how much of a PITA they are depends on where you live. Around here, if you drive into Boston with any frequency they're hard to deal with. Too tall for lots of parking structures, too big for lots of the available on street parking. And they don't fit on some of the roads in the city.
 
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wensteph

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The VM engine in the Ecodiesel suffered from FCA trying to get the last possible MPG out of it at launch and specifying a 5w30 oil instead of the 5w40 they've since switched to. With Rotella in the crankcase it seems to not suffer the bearing failures a few (emphasis on few) engines suffered with the lighter oil.
BITOG post says the oil for the new GM 3.0L is 0w-20. That one might be too much a leap of faith on GM engineering.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4799098/1
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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A number of manufacturers are using 0w20 for newer diesels. I think the VW spec is 508.00. Of course we won't see it in any VW diesels in this market. Reminds me of the 0w30 they used for a while in the PDs and Touareg. That didn't go so well.
 

CleverUserName

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A number of manufacturers are using 0w20 for newer diesels. I think the VW spec is 508.00. Of course we won't see it in any VW diesels in this market. Reminds me of the 0w30 they used for a while in the PDs and Touareg. That didn't go so well.
I read that 0w20 increased fuel economy 4% vs. a 15w40.

What’s the difference in 0w20 vs. a 10w30/5w30 ? 2% ?

I’d rather use the 10w30 as the slight increase in fuel economy may not provide optimum lubrication in all situations, especially extreme heat or high load.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Keep in mind that the viscosity numbers are only one measure, and they are, in my understanding, a gross measure. I recall that the Total 0w30 caused a lot of valve train wear in gasoline VWs, and, as mentioned above, the difference between 5w30 and 5w40 in the VM Motori engine in the Ecodiesel was significant enough to cause crank bearing failure in some engines. And a lot of people learned the hard way that using 30 instead of 40 weight oil in PDs had a big impact on cam life. So, for whatever reason, it matters.
 

turbobrick240

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I'd probably run the ck4 rated Rotella 5w-30 in that engine. I know most new engines are designed to use really thin oils, but I just couldn't do it. If there is a 1-2% FE penalty w/ T6 5w-30, so be it.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
One of my customers sold back his perfect Jetta TDI and got a GC diesel, and he insists on us putting Shell 5w40 in it, as that is what they want used now.

This is verbatim from the TSB FCA released:

"Use 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as MOPAR or Shell Rotella that meets FCA Material Standard MS-10902 and the API CJ-4 or ACEA E9/E7 or ACEA A3/B4 engine oil category is required".

We normally would use Pentosin HP2 5w40 in these, but he insisted on this, so we use it in his.

Curious that FCA has also switched the 5.7L and 6.4L Hemi V8s, an engine that predated Fiat's influence by quite a bit, to 0w40 from either a 10w30, 5w30, or 5w20 spec (depending on application). Seems the Italians may have discovered what a lot of folks already have: that an Xw40 oil still works better on some applications. I have to wonder if this would not help with the Pentostar's common roller rocker wear too. But as of yet, those are still a 5w20 spec. Even in the trucks and stuff.... even in the Promaster . :eek:
 

CleverUserName

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T6 was low bid for FCA, that’s the only reason they use it for factory fill.

MS-10902 is the same as Cummins CES-20086. He can use any that meet CES and E7, E9, A3/B4, CK-4 or CJ-4 oils in 5w40.

One of my customers sold back his perfect Jetta TDI and got a GC diesel, and he insists on us putting Shell 5w40 in it, as that is what they want used now.
This is verbatim from the TSB FCA released:
"Use 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as MOPAR or Shell Rotella that meets FCA Material Standard MS-10902 and the API CJ-4 or ACEA E9/E7 or ACEA A3/B4 engine oil category is required".
We normally would use Pentosin HP2 5w40 in these, but he insisted on this, so we use it in his.
Curious that FCA has also switched the 5.7L and 6.4L Hemi V8s, an engine that predated Fiat's influence by quite a bit, to 0w40 from either a 10w30, 5w30, or 5w20 spec (depending on application). Seems the Italians may have discovered what a lot of folks already have: that an Xw40 oil still works better on some applications. I have to wonder if this would not help with the Pentostar's common roller rocker wear too. But as of yet, those are still a 5w20 spec. Even in the trucks and stuff.... even in the Promaster . :eek:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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T6 was low bid for FCA, that’s the only reason they use it for factory fill.
MS-10902 is the same as Cummins CES-20086. He can use any that meet CES and E7, E9, A3/B4, CK-4 or CJ-4 oils in 5w40.
Original factory fill was 5w30. We were selling Pennzoil Euro Platinum L until they changed the spec. I don't know what the factory fill brand was.

True to form, the change to Rotella T6 coincided with a Shell refinery or bottling plant shut down. Availability was difficult for a while.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Fiat/Ferrari/etc. has had a long relationship with Shell, so that is likely what prompted THAT particular brand being named.

Even the show "How It's Made" had the people hand assembling Ferrari engines showing the Shell logo on their fancy coveralls.

VAG has Castrol, MB has Mobil.... just a shill really, but at least you have hopefully something to fall back on should some engine issue arise under warranty.

Although this particular Jeep in question has other mods, too, so not really sure why he is specifically worried about the oil, but it is his car, so...
 

turbobrick240

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In my neck of the woods Shell Rotella has been the go to oil for most diesel heavy equipment operators for a long, long time. I can see how that association gets them loyalty in the light diesel segment.
 

woofie2

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What a discussion on oils, what a bunch to track, good info here tho.
I am looking to buy from a dealer that offers lifetime oil changes, (3 free oil changes a year)
I have used Shell Rotella, Mobil 1, and Castrol, my preference is to Mobil 1, their oils just feel better and our race cars dynoed better with it, the engine builder recommended it, then our crew chief had us pitted next to the Tony Stewart TRD team one night, we all smiled as Mobil 1 synthetic was what they were using.
Shell Rotella always seemed to have a little more consumption every few thousand miles, than Mobil 1 in my 2003 Jetta. but when buying 6-12 quarts per oil-change it is plenty expensive.
pricing at the local walmart,
Rotella T6 synthetic is $20 a gallon
Mobil TDT (turbo Diesel truck formula) is $25 a gallon
my brother in law uses MotorCraft Super Duty Diesel formula $18 for 5 quarts. (in his cummins and F250, I laughed)

GM hasn't released the 3.0L in the 1500 yet. Supposed to be "early next year" (2019), but I've had GM salesmen tell me 1Q, 2Q and I read online 4Q.

I also don't think Ram has released their new 3.0L either, but I don't keep up with them.

Short version is Ford has the only 1/2 ton diesel on the road now.
All 3 are fighting to be king of segment MPG, RAM has a 5 year head start, Ford and GM are wiggling in the market space. RAM is playing their cards last so they will remain on top. GM leaked some documents to try and get RAM to officially release their info. (Ford and GM did the same thing with their Mustang and Camero fight in 2012/2013, Leaked specs, oh better leaked specs found, officially released specs, wait better model line better specs)
They all are going to be right around 30MPG highway, which is still about double what I get now. 2013 Chevy Silverado 5.3L 16-18 MPG. (had a 2018 RAM HEMI as a rental, it got about 18 MPG in the time I had it, where as my wife's Pacifica gets 25-27 when I drive it, she gets 20 MPG)
 
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turbobrick240

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Looks fine to me. I'd expect a little volatility in a group III+ synthetic. I think it's basically about value. You could buy a PAO or ester oil for twice as much, but does it really make any difference in the long run? Maybe in a high strung race car pushed to the limit at the track. I don't think these diesels really need fufu boutique oils. Dilly dilly. :D
 

woofie2

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turbobrick240

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I wouldn't call it burnoff, it's evaporated really. That's also the old CJ-4 T6 formulation. The new formulation is a bit thicker and has higher quality GTL basestock than the older CJ-4 T6. I haven't seen the NOACK numbers for the CK-4 T6, but based on the higher quality basestock, I'd assume they are lower. I'd rate NOACK as one of the less important indicators anyhow.
 
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