The Greenest Green Fuel, PopularScience.com

[DrSmile]

A 9 year epitaph to this story... Solix no longer makes diesel, instead it now sells "algae-based, natural ingredients that benefit health-conscious consumers." I guess supplements require far lower volume production...

In retrospect it seems everyone involved in diesel in any way, bio or not, was a scammer. Pretty pathetic.

 

[Lug_Nut]

There are a few that have realized that bio is sustainable on a local level, collected locally, produced locally, sold locally. That kind of precludes the "big business" model that has investors clamoring to get rid of their money, but it does bode well for the slightly larger than Mom and Pop producers and retailers.

I burn through my money in bio investments two dollars and one gallon at a time.

 

[adamek]

I think most of the alternative fuels only make economic sense when crude is over $100/barrel.

 

[philngrayce]

I think Adamek is right, the "problem" is simply low oil prices. Even free WVO is hardly worth collecting when diesel is $2 a gallon.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Joule Unlimited is still in there producing fuel. I started watching them when they had a small pilot plant in Leander near me. Now unused it looks like as they have brought up a production plant in Hobbs, NM IIRC and now bought another plant in Colorado for jet fuel production for the military and commercial jet market.

"Red Rock Biofuels LLC is developing refineries in the U.S. to convert woody biomass to renewable drop-in jet, diesel and naphtha fuels. Each refinery will utilize 175,000 dry tons of woody biomass feedstock to produce 16 million gallons per year of finished products.

RRB’s technology platform converts woody biomass to jet, diesel, and naphtha fuels. Our process begins with the gasification of woody biomass to produce synthesis gas. This synthesis gas is cleaned and sent to a Fischer-Tropsch unit where it is converted to liquid hydrocarbons. Hydroprocessing refines the liquid hydrocarbons to produce jet, diesel, and naptha fuels."

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/

 

[Lug_Nut]

I think Adamek is right, the "problem" is simply low oil prices. Even free WVO is hardly worth collecting when diesel is $2 a gallon.

That's probably true. It's a good thing that WVO is cheaper than free.
Current B99 pump price (tax paid): $2.099/gallon
Current ULSD pump price (also tax paid) $2.119 to $2.219/gallon

 

[philngrayce]

Cheaper than free? Someone paying you to take it away, like in the good old days?

 

[Lug_Nut]

Me? Heck, no.
I pay retail for someone else to collect (and get paid for taking away) business' WVO, then filter, transesterify, test and certify, pay wages, taxes, and then to retail the biodiesel product.
There's no way I can, nor do I have a desire to, do all that.
That they can do it, and make a profit, however meager, at $2.10 per gallon shows the benefit of mid-scale production.
There's a bell shaped curve of profitability and annual volume.
Small scale, like I'd do to make my own fuel would be a hobby, a money losing hobby.
Large scale would be less sound as the transport cost (dollars, time and emissions) to get more fuel volume would necessitate a much larger area of collection and distribution.
As I mentioned in post 32 of this thread, there is a 'sweet spot' where the output as gallons per year versus the input in energy (time, money, emissions) is sustainable on the long term. I have no desire to get to that size. My time money and energies are better spent making the products and services that I do better than others. Theirs are spent on what they do well.

 

[philngrayce]

I didn't think anyone was stil paying to dispose of their WVO. Many places now get paid for it.

 

[nwdiver]

There are a few that have realized that bio is sustainable on a local level, collected locally, produced locally, sold locally.

Is it sustainable if it's not scalable?

 

[Lug_Nut]

A mega bio producer needs to collect from a wider area to get the resources, and then distribute to a wider area to sell. That increase in distribution and collection costs decreases relative to production volume only to a point. After that the cost per unit produced begin to rise again.

Sustainability and scalability are not interrelated. Please don't link one to the other. Often, sustainable practices are sustainable specifically because they aren't scaled.

Good thing, too. A single 3 lb. honey bee isn't sustainable. A hive with 3 lb. of bee mass is.

 

[nwdiver]

Sustainability and scalability are not interrelated. Please don't link one to the other. Often, sustainable practices are sustainable specifically because they aren't scaled.

You're missing the point;

I agree that it's foolish to waste something that can but used again as fuel like cooking grease. By all means convert every drop to diesel and burn it (preferably in areas without currently viable alternatives such as aviation)

But Biofuels are a novelty... not a solution. They're as effective at curbing our fools fuel addiction as spitting on a wild fire.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Sustainable?

Tesla cross-country trip 2014
Los Angeles, CA to New York City, NY
3,464.5 miles on 1,197.8 kWh
(about the same energy as 35 gallons of gasoline)
Energy use rate: 99 mpg(e)

Emissions as CO2 equivalent from this trip: 750 kg (1650 lbs.)
CO2 equivalent emission rate for this trip: 217.6 grams per mile.
Pollution rate: 52 mpg(e)
Data from Tesla blog, USEPA eGRID 9th edition, US DOE GREET

VW TDI cross-country trip 2010
Portland, ME to Portland, OR
3,934.2 miles on 80.166 gallons of B100 biodiesel
(about the same energy as 82 gallons of gasoline)
Energy use rate: 48 mpg(e)

Emissions as CO2 equivalent from this trip: 600 kg (1,323 lbs.)
CO2 equivalent emissions rate for this trip: 152.5 grams per mile.
Pollution rate: 75 mpg(e)
Data from my mileage log book, International Council on Clean Transportation, US DOE GREET

 

[nwdiver]

Sustainable?

Here's a miles per acre comparison...

You can get different biofuel yields from different methods...
Soy- 40gal per acre (2000 miles/acre)
Corn- 400gal per acre (20k miles/acre)
Sugarcane- 800gal per acre (40k miles/acre)
Algae- 6000gal per acre (300k miles/acre)

By comparison my small 1000 sq ft roof has ~10kW of solar on it generating 17MWh/yr. Sufficient for >50k miles of diving. So already just the roof of a small house is more effective than an entire acre of Soy, Corn or Sugarcane biofuel.

A full acre of solar can support ~400kW. With single axis tracking in a sunny area 400kW would generate ~1GWh of electricity... sufficient for 3M miles of driving.

Solar is now also much cheaper... <$0.04/kWh. or the equivalent of paying ~$0.60/gallon with a car that gets ~50mpg.

Biofuels still have a place. Aircraft will need high density fuels for a while. We really need to conserve our liquid fuels for things that fly... instead of wasting them on things that drive.

 

[Lightflyer1]

and the Joule link above says they can produce:

"At full-scale commercialization, a 10,000 acre Joule plant will represent a reserve value of 50 million barrels of solar-derived fuel, equivalent to a medium-sized oil field."

or 210,000 gallons an acre. From special bacteria, sunlight and co2.

 

[nwdiver]

and the Joule link above says they can produce:

"At full-scale commercialization, a 10,000 acre Joule plant will represent a reserve value of 50 million barrels of solar-derived fuel, equivalent to a medium-sized oil field."

or 210,000 gallons an acre. From special bacteria, sunlight and co2.

IF you have CO2 feed stock from a power plant. So that scale is obviously very limited and getting more limited every year as wind and solar generation displace fossil fuels.

I didn't see where the 210,000 gallons per acre per year came from... (ah... I figured it out; 'Reserve Value' ≠ 'Annual Production'; that 10,000 acre plant isn't producing 50M Barrels per year)

This is from Joule;
'At full-scale commercialization in ideal locations, the company ultimately targets 25,000 US gallons of Joule Sunflow®-E (solar ethanol) or 15,000 US gallons of Joule Sunflow®-D (solar diesel) per acre annually, for approximately $1.20/US gallon ($50/barrel).'

That's half the 'miles-per-acre' compared to EV-PV at twice the cost... and you still need the CO2 feed stock from a fools fuel power plant. If you use atmospheric CO2 for Biofuels you're ~90% less effective and roughly twice as expensive vs Solar PV.

 

[Lightflyer1]

My bad on missing the other link. Still a good use as long as we have CO2 emitters.

 

[nwdiver]

My bad on missing the other link. Still a good use as long as we have CO2 emitters.

Agreed.... for aircraft. We really need to accelerate the transition of cars to electric.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Here's a miles per acre comparison...

and here's a grams of CO2 equivalent (CO2, plus CO, CH4, NO2 converted to equivalent of CO2) per kWh comparison for various biodiesel feed stocks
Soy 450.0
Palm kernel: 374.4
Rape seed: 360.0
Sunflower: 345.6
waste animal fat: 256.3
Jatropha: 112.3
waste vegetable oil: 36.0 grams per kWh

and the same g/kWh for other energy sources
Coal electric: 1001
liquid hydrogen: 512
compressed hydrogen: 479
nat. gas electric: 469
Corn ethanol: 357
Gasoline: 345
Diesel: 341
liquid nat. gas: 336
Cane ethanol: 264
compressed nat. gas: 245
Syn-diesel: 142
Photovoltaic solar: 46 grams per kWh
Nuclear electric: 16
Wind electric: 12

Note that these are "well to wheels" numbers including the energy used in production (glass manufacture, concrete CO2 emissions, fertilizer production, etc. etc.) and factored over the lifetime of the device.

 

[nwdiver]

waste vegetable oil: 36.0 grams per kWh

I totally 100% agree that we should burn waste vegetable oil first... all 3 Billion Gallons of it per year. Once we've exhausted that supply then we should use;

Photovoltaic solar: 46 grams per kWh
Nuclear electric: 16
Wind electric: 12

The obvious priority should go toward modes of transportation that MUST use liquid fuels like aviation... which consumes ~13 Billion Gallons per year. I don't personally fly but many people 'have' to... If we can quench that thirst with Veggie oil the it will make sense to use it in cars. Until then it's beyond absurd to use anything other than electrons if you're driving <30 miles. It's far past time to get serious about breaking our pathetic addiction to fools fuel.

 

[Lug_Nut]

I totally 100% agree that we should burn waste vegetable oil first... all 3 Billion Gallons of it per year. Once we've exhausted that supply ...

I don't think that'll happen. We'll run out of food waste just shortly before we run out of food.

The obvious priority should go toward modes of transportation that MUST use liquid fuels like aviation... which consumes ~13 Billion Gallons per year.

The atmospheric conditions don't lend to use of biodiesel. I've gelled at zero feet. I don't want to have an aircraft gel, regardless of if I'm ON it, or UNDER it.

Until then it's beyond absurd to use anything other than electrons if you're driving <30 miles.

30 mile's a bit far for me now. 10 miles is about my personal limit, but a bicycle is far superior to either electric or liquid fuel. Under three? I walk. Can't get much less environmentally destructive than that.

 

[nwdiver]

I don't think that'll happen. We'll run out of food waste just shortly before we run out of food.

The atmospheric conditions don't lend to use of biodiesel. I've gelled at zero feet. I don't want to have an aircraft gel, regardless of if I'm ON it, or UNDER it. 30 mile's a bit far for me now. 10 miles is about my personal limit, but a bicycle is far superior to either electric or liquid fuel. Under three? I walk. Can't get much less environmentally destructive than that.

There's an infinite supply of veggie oil? Where? Why are we still drilling for oil then?

We don't use oil in Aircraft either but it is the raw material for jet fuel. Waste Veggie oil would be the same. It can be refined into Jet Fuel.

 

[Lug_Nut]

We'll run out of food waste just shortly before we run out of food.

There's an infinite supply of veggie oil? Where? Why are we still drilling for oil then?

Such little understanding of supply and demand.....

Waste Veg oil has caloric food value. It's just that we'd prefer to have something else, something that tastes better, because we HAVE a choice.
When food is so scarce that there's little else to eat, we'll eat what used to be considered waste. We'll make anything palatable, or we'll starve.

Note that I did NOT say there's a limitless supply of veg oil. That is your incorrect presumption. I DID imply there not a limitless supply of food from which waste can be used for purposes other than food.
Talk about sustainable vs. 'scalable': the human race is currently not sustainable at the scale our numbers are growing.

 

[nwdiver]

Such little understanding of supply and demand.....

I understand that our demand has outstripped our supply of ALL biofuels. AND it's virtually impossible for biofuels to meet even ~10% of demand.

I understand that our supply of energy from the sun (via PV) is effectively limitless... => we should use that WHEREVER POSSIBLE

We need to use wind/solar where possible and preserve liquid fuels where using wind/solar is not possible.

 

[Lug_Nut]

An article in Today's (3 Sept. 2017) Boston Globe regarding Joule Unlimited's current state of business, and that doesn't look rosy.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...o-nightmare/rt5ve7mE4YUZUOrqdaTqWK/story.html

I don't know how long this specific link may remain active, but here's the upshot of the article:
Joule is in a tough situation. Questions have been raised about Joules pie-in-the-sky 20,000 gallon per acre fuel yield capability claim, particularly in light (pun intended) of the amount of solar energy shed on a per-acre basis. Fossil fuel prices have dropped from $110/bbl when initial investment funding was sought, to about $60. Little further investment is forthcoming. Investors (shareholders) are looking to get something back from their investment and the best return appears to be sell the farm rather than hope for a big harvest. Audi was among those investors and is smarting from the dieselgate affair and is not about to put more into diesel fuel when parent VW wants to make the public forget about its cheat. At Joule nearly all the employees have been laid off. The 1k acre New Mexico production plant was to have been started in construction this year? It was auctioned off last month. That leaves the patent on the GMO algae bacteria as the only really valuable asset that Joule has left.

John Beneman of MicroBio Engineering, and an expert on bio-based fuels: "There are other companies out there that have raised hundreds of millions of dollars and come up with the same results. Either they (the companies) are walking dead, or are ghosts, or resting in peace."

Joule Unlimited appears to be in the first or second categories.


None of this however is changing my stance on biodiesel from waste sources.

 

[nwdiver]

Questions have been raised about Joules pie-in-the-sky 20,000 gallon per acre fuel yield capability claim, particularly in light (pun intended) of the amount of solar energy shed on a per-acre basis.

An acre receives on average ~6.5GWh per year of sunlight in the US. 20,000 gallons of fuel is ~0.68GWh. A conversion efficiency of ~10% would be difficult to achieve for biofuels.

None of this however is changing my stance on biodiesel from waste sources.

What would?

 

[wxman]

According to the latest version of the GREET model (GREET_2016), Dimethyl Ether (DME) from "forest residue" used in diesel passenger cars has the lowest WTW GHG emissions (by far - a net GHG emission rate of -526 g/mile in current U.S. grid mix when waste heat from the process is used to generated electricity).

The disadvantage is that DME is not a direct "drop-in" replacement for diesel fuel (DME is a gas at STP).

Also, diesel fuel produced from the organic portion of municipal solid wastes has already received approval from CARB under its "Low Carbon Fuel Standard". The certified carbon intensity (CI) is 14.78 g CO2e/mJ. The CI of "California marginal electricity mix of natural gas and renewable energy sources" is 104.71 g CO2e/mJ. So even if you assume EVs get on average 3.5 times better "mileage" than diesels, the effective GHG emission rate of a diesel passenger car using this diesel fuel product is about half that of EVs using California's extremely low-carbon marginal mix.

This process not only produces a very low CI diesel fuel product, it reduces the rate of waste going into landfills by a huge amount.

 

[nwdiver]

According to the latest version of the GREET model (GREET_2016), Dimethyl Ether (DME) from "forest residue" used in diesel passenger cars has the lowest WTW GHG emissions (by far - a net GHG emission rate of -526 g/mile in current U.S. grid mix when waste heat from the process is used to generated electricity).

Low GHG emissions isn't the only critea that needs to be met... biofuels simply cannot supply enough energy. They're nice. We should use them. But we need a source for the other 95% of our transportation energy. Solar is the only source that can provide that and electrifying reduces the energy used by ~70%.

 

[wxman]

I agree that biofuels have a restricted feedstock supply.

However...I was personally involved in USDA's and State Forestry Services' "prescribed burn" programs, in which tens of millions of acres are intentionally burned in order to control fuels available for wildfires. The prescribed burning produces essentially uncontrolled emissions of not only CO2, but PM, CO, HC and NOx.

Why not use at least some of this fuel to produce biofuels like DME? According to what I have been able to find, each acre burned could produce 20 dry tons of "marketable" feedstock. Each dry ton could produce ~110 gallons of DME. Extrapolating that to ~20,000,000 acres of vegetation intentionally burned during prescribed burns annually yields ~44 billion gallons of DME. Granted, not all of the potential feedstock would be accessible for recovery, and DME has only about half of the energy density of diesel fuel, but that still is a very sizable potential biofuels source.

If you extrapolate the MSW-to-diesel yields for the one processing facility being built in Nevada to the entire country, the potential would be ~11 billion gallons, and nearly 15 billion gallons if you include recycled waste streams (according to EPA).

So I think there's a potential for more than 5% of the transportation energy.

Again, I agree that EVs are great for local commuting, but biofuels could still be a valuable commodity for transportation, including personal passenger cars that are used for long-distance travel.

 

[nwdiver]

If you extrapolate the MSW-to-diesel yields for the one processing facility being built in Nevada to the entire country, the potential would be ~11 billion gallons, and nearly 15 billion gallons if you include recycled waste streams (according to EPA).

So I think there's a potential for more than 5% of the transportation energy.

Again, I agree that EVs are great for local commuting, but biofuels could still be a valuable commodity for transportation, including personal passenger cars that are used for long-distance travel.

The US uses ~440B gallons of liquid fuels per year. 15B would cover <4% of our use. Aviation alone uses ~36B gallons per year. It's A LOT easier to electrify ground transport than air transport. Once biofuel displaces aviation fuel THEN we can start talking about using biofuels in cars...

I've been doing pro bono solar installs as a hobby for the last few years helping friends and family install cheap solar. Just the 6 installs I've done save the equivalent of ~7500 gallons per year if the energy were used in EVs instead of a 40mpg cars. The focus needs to be on EV+PV. That's where we get the most bang for the buck.

Long distance travel in an EV is not hard with the supercharger network. Most stops are <30 minutes.