the "fix" before and after

[meerschm]

I am firming up a preference for the fix. (vs immediate sell-back)

looking for ideas and interest for before/after measurements.

I have a VCDS, and am not afraid to log some blocks.

 

[S2000_guy]

I'd be interested in some VCDS 0-60 times, before and after. Same car, same tires so it doesn't matter if the VSS is off by a couple of mph. Ideally, a half dozen or so runs before the fix. The single fastest time would represent the car's capability; slower times would be attributed to driver error. Then a half dozen runs after the fix; again, the fastest run represents the car's capability. Before and after should be on the same stretch of road, same time of day to attempt to equalize conditions. Maybe a 30-minute drive before each test to ensure the car is warmed up the same.

It's not perfect, but it's the best I could hope for.

Note: I have a CAN VCDS in Central Ohio, if anyone getting the fix is interested in participating.

 

[meerschm]

so which dozen advance measuring block settings would you log for this?

 

[turboBear]

What about a fuel economy bracket?

Pick a 100 mile highway trip which can be done with cruise control locked in the entire time to reduce driver variance - do it maybe 2-3 times under varying weather conditions, wouldn't that yield basically a normalized-case and mostly Apples-2-Apples?

Not hypermiling either, just normal for however the owner likes to take the trip. It's the 'delta' in performance that is the question, right?

 

[r11]

Timing a low-load scenario wont show much. The fix, whatever it is going to be, will be most pronounced under high-load conditions, when engine runs at max power/highest temps and produces most NOx.

Dyno time !

 

[GoFaster]

High-load situations aren't included in the EPA driving cycle and aren't significant in the test cycles that these "real driving" scenarios will be subjected to.

The long-duration fuel consumption on cruise control test is likely the most repeatable, although that load condition wasn't the one with the worst emissions (thus being one subject to change).

An uphill-grade test might be useful. Pick a good long uphill grade and pick the gear that will allow steady-ish speed, or slight acceleration, up the hill with the engine in the meat of the normal operating range (2000 - 2500 rpm). Start at the bottom at a certain speed past a certain marker and see what speed it is when you get to another marker near the top. The uphill-and-downhill test was one of the bad situations for NOx emissions.

 

[S2000_guy]

so which dozen advance measuring block settings would you log for this?

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/acceleration.php

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I'd dyno the car as it is now, then after. Same wheels and tires, same dyno, same dyno operator. Then capture fuel economy for at least 5 tanks. That should give you some comparisons.

 

[oilhammer]

Regen cycles will have a huge effect on the repeatability of your testing procedures. I think you need to look at averages over a longer period of time/mileage.

 

[meerschm]

perhaps some details around the regen cycles will help understand the changes.

a while ago I logged a few things, trying to figure out how the car works.

put this together ( I could pull a .pdf and post here if anyone wants me to)
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/dpf-obd-charts/

I guessed the skinny spikes were NOX regens, and the longer one was a DPF regen.

time between the NOX regen would be interesting, as would the duration and some measurement of the extra fuel used.

on my car (09) at least, the MB 104-1 value seems to correlate to DPF, NOX regen, and deSOX.

would be interesting if this correlation is not altered by the fix,


Think I could log injection duration, MB 004-3, multiply by RPM and get fuel use?,

I have thought about this, trying to see how much fuel is used for a deNOX cycle.

 

[meerschm]

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/acceleration.php

Thanks,

I may play with this. have to find a repeatable, safe place to do so.

 

[meerschm]

I'd dyno the car as it is now, then after. Same wheels and tires, same dyno, same dyno operator. Then capture fuel economy for at least 5 tanks. That should give you some comparisons.

Not sure I care enough to pay for dyno, or want to do too many runs on the car. it does seem that would be a reasonable measure.

five tanks would also include a few other variables. assuming they come up with a fix in the fall, before/after could have temp swings, AC use..... and I have been putting my car top camper on and off...

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Have you been capturing FE on the car for a while? If so, do it for a year after the fix.

 

[meerschm]

Not religiously. the only time I pay attention is on a long-ish trip, and then just the MFD average mpg.

I used to keep a logbook, but gave that up a couple cars ago.

it does seem that there will be enough folks who want to get the fix, that perhaps there is some useful info we can gather to inform/validate later adopters. (and make us feel better about our decision)

for performance impacts, my 2009 may not be the best example. if they do, as we suspect, install a new design NOX storage cat, the 09 will likely include a new (or rebuilt) DOC/DPF as well, and mine has been on the car for 175,000 miles.

 

[S2000_guy]

Thanks,

I may play with this. have to find a repeatable, safe place to do so.

It could yield useful information on any performance changes. It would not be as accurate as a dyno, but would cost a whole lot less that two (before and after) dyno sessions.

 

[S2000_guy]

After a bit of thought, I'd suggest using VCDS to measure 5 mph or 10 mph to 60 mph. The rolling start would be easier on the car than a hard launch, and the driver should be able to be more consistent just flooring it after the clutch is fully engaged rather than launching. It might also attract less unwanted attention than launching.

 

[meerschm]

I came to a similar conclusion, but today on the way to work, the car went into a DPF regen, so I put this off for another time.

 

[oilhammer]

I came to a similar conclusion, but today on the way to work, the car went into a DPF regen, so I put this off for another time.

Well, like I said, you NEED to include this in your calculations, as a regen is a normal operation of the vehicle. That's why any comparisons before and after some mythical "fix" to non-SCR cars would need to be done over a much broader scale. Like, 5k miles before, and 5k miles after. And that only assumes both datasets are gathered when everything else is the same, like weather, tires, etc.

 

[meerschm]

Well, like I said, you NEED to include this in your calculations, as a regen is a normal operation of the vehicle. That's why any comparisons before and after some mythical "fix" to non-SCR cars would need to be done over a much broader scale. Like, 5k miles before, and 5k miles after. And that only assumes both datasets are gathered when everything else is the same, like weather, tires, etc.

Understood and agreed.

It sounds like VW is on the hook for updated MPG estimate numbers, and these should be comparable to the previous estimates based on specified, repeatable, conditions. And with the same caveats about the applicability of these estimates to TDI operation.


We should see in a couple more months if there is a unicorn horn (or unicorn horn powder) included in whatever a BASF TEX2064 or alternate is http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5095172&postcount=3

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Please log EGR duty cycle before and after the fix.

I'd also be interested in plotting exhaust temperature from the four temperature sensors over a similar extended drives both before and after the fix. This should show you NOx regen frequency and duration, overall running temperatures, and hopefully DPF regeneration frequency.

A seat-of-the-pants measurement would also be turbo lag. There is some pretty sound speculation that turbo lag will be increased and the overall responsiveness of the engine will be decreased after the fix. That may not significantly affect raw 0-60 times or top speed, but it might significantly change the way the engine feels when running around town.

 

[kjclow]

Have you been capturing FE on the car for a while? If so, do it for a year after the fix.

I have my fuel log since day 1 with only a few tanks missing here and there. Darn kids! I'm waiting for the fix on the JSW until someone can show me that it won't greatly impact my daily driving. Once I get the fix and the $5100 check, the car may end up going to my daughter anyway.

I'm all for tracking the before and after effects, like this: When I put the bridgestone ecopias on, I looked at the previous five tanks and compared to the next five. Even with the switch over from summer to winter blend, I saw slightly improved mileage.

 

[meerschm]

so MB 003-4. any idea how long or what other conditions would inform operation?

(and I think this is the high pressure EGR) not quite sure which is the low pressure EGR version.

I will record some before info, on the way to the tdifest. (will, of course, be pre-fix)

For a long-ish highway drive, VCDS will record up to 12 parameters from Advanced measuring blocks http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/advance_mvb.pdf is a set of screenshots for the advance measuring blocks available for my car.

open to suggestions as to which parameters will be informative.


not sure the DPF regeneration cycle will change much, but I do watch them on a routine basis with my PF03. Agree that a long drive log of temps should point to both NOX regens and DPF regen.

the turbo lag seems to be something which could be logged fairly well.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

My line of thinking with monitoring DPF regenerations is that the "fix" will end up causing the engine to produce more soot, thus making the DPF work harder to keep itself clean. The increased soot goes hand-in-hand with the engine becoming less responsive due to increased EGR and potential timing modifications.

 

[meerschm]

my observation is that, of the two models which calculate soot, the calculated soot drives regeneration, not the measured soot.

(calculated soot levels of 16.2 grams mostly are followed by DPF regeneration. sometimes delayed to 16.5 or even 16.7)

I see measured soot stay close to 0, but up and down (as soot collects and is passively regenerated) closer to a DPF regeneration. (do not think I have ever seen it over 10)

I guess the fix could change the models, or change the soot estimate thresholds for DPF regeneration (and warning lamp operation).

but probably worth including soot values in the long drive logs.

 

[SkeeterMark]

I have 112k of 100% logged mileage, along with 0-60 times in original, post 23O6 update, and post cracked DPF conditions (of which the difference between each are indiscernible, btw)

IF there is a fix, that is the route I will take, providing it becomes available in a reasonable amount of time, as I doubt I can drive around with a cracked DPF indefinitely. I refuse to fix a part of their emissions system on my dime, so if the fix is long in coming, I might do the buyback, though I have no idea how to replace this car.

In any case, if I do the fix, I will have complete data on FE and 0-60 to compare to.

 

[wbclassics]

The EA189 engines have glowplugs with a built in strain gauge array that measures cylinder pressure for each cylinder.

You can't get any better at measuring an engine's performance than observing the cylinder pressures. Can VCDS log the cylinder pressures?

 

[meerschm]

VCDS can log what the controller offers to report.

i think the pressure sensor outputs are not directly available, but input to programs that use them to calculate torque, and to drive the injection quantity per-cyl adjustment reported in MB 13 (probably a few other things too. I am not a combustion engineer)

 

[meerschm]

I have 112k of 100% logged mileage, along with 0-60 times in original, post 23O6 update, and post cracked DPF conditions (of which the difference between each are indiscernible, btw)

IF there is a fix, that is the route I will take, providing it becomes available in a reasonable amount of time, as I doubt I can drive around with a cracked DPF indefinitely. I refuse to fix a part of their emissions system on my dime, so if the fix is long in coming, I might do the buyback, though I have no idea how to replace this car.

In any case, if I do the fix, I will have complete data on FE and 0-60 to compare to.

Great! I think there is supposed to be some option to have the car fixed, and if you decide it is not to your liking, go ahead with the buy-back.

 

[meerschm]

I logged a couple sets of before data on the drive to Wisconsin and back.

let me know if anyone is interested in a copy of the logs. (couple MB each. but includes some good info)

 

[nozel]

my observation is that, of the two models which calculate soot, the calculated soot drives regeneration, not the measured soot.

(calculated soot levels of 16.2 grams mostly are followed by DPF regeneration. sometimes delayed to 16.5 or even 16.7)

I see measured soot stay close to 0, but up and down (as soot collects and is passively regenerated) closer to a DPF regeneration. (do not think I have ever seen it over 10)

I guess the fix could change the models, or change the soot estimate thresholds for DPF regeneration (and warning lamp operation).

but probably worth including soot values in the long drive logs.

I ran my 2013 'Wagen for two solid weeks, where the engine never got to temperature.
At the end of this period, I observed a calculated load of 7 and an actual of 18!

It seems that particulateDPF filter regeneration is based on a worst case of fuel consumed, worst case soot generation from low RPM and large fuel required (pinned to the floor) operation or lots of stop and go with hard acceleration requirements.

The regeneration that followed, occurred soon after the engine reached operating parameters programed into ecu, that would suport safe regeneration. (I did not capture that regeneration cycle)

That two week cycle proved to me, diesel is not a viable fuel for short duration trips, and would greatly speed up ash loading and premature DPF replacement.

My 2013 'Wagen has 52k Km on the odometer, is used for 20-30 minutes at a time at operating temp.

Soot load typically reaches 7 actual with a calculated value of 16.5, driving regeneration at least twice per each 800 Km tank.

NOX regeneration is much more frequent, again based on a values programed into ecu, rather than an actual threshold (that I have not identified).