The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI's

meganuke

TDIClub Contributor, Vendor
Joined
Mar 6, 2003
Location
VA/CT
TDI
2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

To my knowledge, biodiesel will not melt your fuel lines. It will break down rubber seals, which haven't been used on cars since the 80's. All seals on modern cars are made of viton or some synthetic equivalent.
 

MarkWaddle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
Location
Sammamish, WA
TDI
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS Black
Thanks for the posts here is what I think

I have to put in my 2 cents 'cause this thread has been agitating me. It is rants like this that put people off from trying new things.

From what I've read, greasecar and other kits are working fine for most TDIs and other diesels as long as:
1. They are installed correctly
2. The VO is filtered of solids and water
3. The VO is heated to the proper temperatue before it is injected into the engine

If I were to damage my vehicle by installing one of these kits I would be upset, but in the end I could only blame myself for taking the risk and probably not doing something correctly. I would research and figure out what went wrong. I would experiment with a cheaper car that wasn't my only mode of transportation next time.
 

NCTDIGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Greenville NC
TDI
2001 VW Golf Blue
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Maybe you should help Greasecar Design their system because what they give out of box is garbage. The vehicles doing those educational tours and such you are talking about have a had problems too. You can read of Journeytoforevers problem with their injection pump and they drove a bus which I assume is a IDI engine. If it can cause an injection pump to go on a bus it can certainly cause it to go on your TDI. The fact that this issue is beign brought up and people are having problems is reason enough for reasearch to be done. WHY WOULD YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BUY A PRODUCT OR EXPERIMENT WITH SOMETHING THAT COULD POTENTIALLY CAUSE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN DAMAGE TO THEIR VEHICLES? Do you know conclusivly that SVO does not cause any ill effects of diesel engines? If you do then let me see the research. It is not good enough to say your car is running fine! Please do not encourage this technology unless you can prove it doesn't cause problems. Just because you haven't had a problem doesn't mean other mean haven't.
 

NCTDIGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Greenville NC
TDI
2001 VW Golf Blue
Thanks for the posts here is what I think

I have to put in my 2 cents 'cause this thread has been agitating me. It is rants like this that put people off from trying new things.

From what I've read, greasecar and other kits are working fine for most TDIs and other diesels as long as:
1. They are installed correctly
2. The VO is filtered of solids and water
3. The VO is heated to the proper temperatue before it is injected into the engine

If I were to damage my vehicle by installing one of these kits I would be upset, but in the end I could only blame myself for taking the risk and probably not doing something correctly. I would research and figure out what went wrong. I would experiment with a cheaper car that wasn't my only mode of transportation next time.
Like I said, Why would you encourage something that could cause thousands of dollars in damage to peoples vehicles? This forum is not to encourage people to experiment with modifications that have no legitimate research base. IT is to give people information about maintaining and fixing their vehicle. It is also a place where people can come and learn about experimental kits like the Greascar system and make informed decision based on the past experience of others. If you don't like it then don't post. I installed the kit correctly, it worked and then it killed my injection pump. If you would like to take my car apart and do scientific research then I invite you but I don't think you are willing to do that. I am sorry that the post it bothering you.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Was that English? I'm confused. It didn't make any sense.
 

MarkWaddle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
Location
Sammamish, WA
TDI
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS Black
One more ... then I\'ll shut up

Your hopes for "cheap" fuel must have glossed your eyes because you looked over the disclaimers, warnings of potential problems and actual reports of problems by users. You apparently did little to no research if you did not know that vegetable oil in a TDI could potentially damage your injection pump. You took the chance with your car. By the way I am not an advocate of Greasecar nor do I recommend or denounce them, only because I don't have any experience with their kit. I am simply stating that it seems extreme to scream to everyone to never use Greasecar or vegetable oil and that noone should take the risk when there are so many successful installs that are problem free. For those willing to take the risk, the degree of which I can't comment on, go for it. You have said for yourself that you are not an expert mechanic nor engineer and you don't know exactly what happened nor do you care, but you are POSITIVE it was Greasecar's fault. What grounds does this give you to say whether or not the Greasecar is a quality product? Have you successfully ruled out user error? I believe that to deface a company and the whole idea of vegetable oil in TDIs in general based on this premise is out of line. I do appreciate and second your call for more research.
 

conejo_a_cuatro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Location
Bryn Mawr, PA
TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I think the intent is to use the heated tank for B100.
Also makes sense to use a kit that heats the main tank.
The second tank would be small, unheated and run diesel or B20.
Umm, not so much. Heated tank for SVO/WVO, not B100. Non-heated tank for B100 or B20. Why bother heating B100? Runs fine at room temp, that's the point.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the intent of using biodiesel in a two-tank system, to use the biodiesel in the NON-heated tank in place of standard diesel fuel, and to use the vegetable oil (NOT the biodiesel) in the heated tank?
Ok Let me try to clarify my point as i think it was a little confusing to some. I live it vt. It is cold here..very cold.
My intent was to run b100 year round using a 2 tank system. to get around having to blend or use dinocrud
in the winter.I want to get out from under the thumb of big
oil. Looks like i might have to run stainless fuel lines to do so.If i run an svo setup it sounds like i may fry my ip.
if i run b100 looks like i may melt my fuel lines.

Perhaps there is a way to regulate the temp via thermostat.
To keep the biodiesel to say between 50F and 90f .

Hmmm..
Indeed. I think then, that instead of having two tanks, why not just put a vegtherm with a thermostat in before the fuel filter? Set it to power off at 100 degrees F, that should be plenty to get the fuel moving, that and a Block heater. I understand not wanting to dilute the B100 with petrocrap.

It is true that if you're doing all that work, why not put in WVO, but considering the origin of these conversations, I understand the hesitation. I say warm your BD with a vegtherm, you're in bidness. Oh yeah, maybe a small loop of coolant to the main tank, for when it's F@$CKing cold. Maybe make that switchable using the same type of switch people use to go from BD to SVO?

Here's the Idea.
Regular Day - Run as Usual
15 - 30 - Run Vegtherm, block heater before starting, heated fuel from return from injectors should heat up fuel sufficiently in tank to keep from gelling
Below 15 - Flip the coolant switch, or better yet an electric heating element in the tank, Vegtherm and Block heater 1 hour before you start in the morning. Should free up enough BD to get you running, and return from injectors should keep tank liquid after you get going.

Hmm. Starting to sound quite complicated.

When I worked at a movie theatre doing concessions as a teenager, I would take the buckets of palm oil from the store room, the oil was solid at room temp. The popcorn machine had a suction tube assembly, and right next to the pickup was a small electric element. I would turn on the element, melt it into the fat, and then after a few minutes, started the popper. The element was right next to the pickup, so it would liquefy the fat right adjacent to the pickup. Could we make something like that?
 

Audi5000td

Banned
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
TDI
2005 passat Wagon Northern Green
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

NCTDIguy...

I am curious.... what were you doing for quality control on your WVO to filter it of crud and to get water content/moisture or suspended H2O out of your fuel before putting it in your tank? What about storage of your WVO before you put in in the fuel tank of your car?

YOU have an obligation for all quality control of the WVO that you acquire BEFORE you start using it to power your TDI.
 

latitude500

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Austin Tx, USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I still haven’t read anything from NCTDIGuy that convinces me not to use veggie oil as a fuel. But I still want to purchase the kit so drop me an email.

I have a friend that would like to install it into his car.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

FYI, I was burning a "mix" of WVO in my Rabbits and Jettas in the early to mid-80s. No problems that I was aware of. I hope to do the same with my TDI as soon as I get my refinery up and running (in the old barn).

Also, very interesting, I own a 1983 VW Vanagon (gasser), last of the "Air-cooled" Vanagons. I have used about a 5% mix of WVO in it for years. It has the original injectors. I did change the electric fuel pump at about 160k miles only because I was about to make the 5th trip to Alaska (from Kentucky). The Van has over 215k miles on it...... runs fine and has made a total of 7 trips to Alaska and a few trips to Florida.
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Hey Andy, thanks for sharing your gasser w/ 5%WVO story. AFAIK, it's a first!
 

grobbeku

New member
Joined
Jun 28, 2003
Location
netherlands
TDI
Bora 2000 blue 19 TDI Automatic
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Is it possible to make a mixture of sunflower oil (25%) and diesel (75%)and use this mixture without damaging the engine
I have an VW Bora 19 TDI year 2000 132 HP , and I live in Holland
 

McBrew

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Location
Annapolis, MD
TDI
2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

conejo_a_cuatro, the reason a veg-therm won't solve the problem is that the fuel in the lines (all the way back to the fuel tank) is still very thick. You've sipped water through a drinking straw, right? How about a milkshake? Even if the milkshake was melting just as it passed your lips, it's still much more difficult to suck the thick part of it through the straw. Now, imagine that the straw is 15 feet long! THAT is what is causing problems with injection pumps. That's why ALL of the WVO must be heated, and even the fuel lines should be heated.

There's a thread over on one of the WVO forums stating that 170ºF soybean oil is about 12 times more viscous than diesel fuel. That adds up to about double the load on the lift pump.

Personally, I think WVO systems are better suited to older diesel engines. I am running about 33% WVO in the main tank on my 300D. If it burns up the pump, so be it. I have half a dozen injection pumps on a shelf in the garage. Not that I'm worried about it... they have very robust injection pumps. I wouldn't do that in my TDI.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

McBrew, I nominate this posting of yours the best of the year so far! That was an excellent and descriptive analogy.

:thumbs_up:



Just for kicks, compare to viscosity of WVO (nasty, lardy, buttery, Albertson's grocery sourced) bioD:

 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

"That's why ALL of the WVO must be heated, and even the fuel lines should be heated."

Most dual tank systems use this approach.
My single tank Elsbett does not heat the fuel lines, but does use a different technique to lower the friction and therefore load on the lift pump.

iirc, someone tested a TDI pump load when fueled with veg. oil. They used an alternator to sense the load. Though the hot vo was 6 times as viscous, the pump load only increased 50%.
 

conejo_a_cuatro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Location
Bryn Mawr, PA
TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

McBrew,

Yes, that's what I was saying, perhaps not very clearly. 1) I've given up on WVO on TDI's, this whole IP fiasco cost me a bundle, and several weeks without my TDI. I wasn't even running WVO, just B100. I intend to baby my new(ish) IP as best I can because there's no new vehicles in my future until I finish grad school...
2) I was thinking aloud about the first poster's problem, that is, B100 in cold climates, WVO issues notwithstanding. So the question is, how do we keep B100 flowing in winter? It seems that there are 2 choices: dilution with anti-gelling dino product, or warming the B100. The poster didn't want to use dino products, wanted to be pure B100 thru the winter.

OK, given the idea that we need to make B100 thin enough to use in close to- or sub- zero temps, we can agree that heating the BD is essential to keep the viscosity low. The Veg-therm before the fuel filter is to prevent clogging of the filter, IE excess strain on the IP. Apparently, if we're talking 25-30 deg's F, it don't take much heat to keep the filter flowing. I can speak from experience from last winter in Eugene, although I can't speak for if the reduced flow thru the filter helped create my IP woes. There are also heated fuel filters available, that should nip the filter clog prob in the bud.

Now let's think colder. Firstly, although I talked about a coolant loop originally, let's be honest. TDI's don't produce enough heat to keep the cabin warm, so the likely hood of sufficient heat to ungel the fuel line is pretty small, especially close to starting. Hence, my heated pickup idea. What to do about the fuel line? Not so sure on this one. I'm leaning towards electric heat for the whole system, the question is what kind of mods will the electrical system need to support all the heating. Bigger alternator? Second Battery? I don't know.

As far as the WVO debate, I would love nothing better than to put some filtered, warmed liquid waste from fryolators in my car, and happily drive around town without a care in the world, laughing at the suckers at the Gas Pump. Unfortunately, my faith in WVO has been shaken. If I can finally have the time, expertise, and cash all available at the same time (not likely for an unfunded PhD student) then I would gladly make a frankendiesel toyota conversion with an IDI engine, then slop in a bunch of WVO. I've even heard people talk about the possibility of putting an old MB 5 Cylinder IDI engine in a toyota truck, because of the famed endurance of the 300D's, using all kinds of junk in place of No.2 diesel. But for a TDI, I think not. Maybe after you pioneers get a couple-hundred thousand miles each without replacing the IP, I will reconsider. My old pump came out completely thrashed, the car wouldn't even start, and the air bubble in the fuel line wouldn't move when I cranked the engine on an 85 degree day in the sun! I saw the pix from the Bosch white paper about what happens to IP's when they use ULSD, my pump doesn't have "a little play", I can turn the pump by hand almost 90 degrees! At this point, I'm inclined to believe the Diesel tech who inspected the new pump before I put it in, in that Bosch used bad materials for the innards of the IP, and that once ULSD comes to the states, we'll see VE TDI's dropping like flies. I'm actually inclined at this point to believe that PD TDI's are a better choice for B100. So even if we're talking only a 50% increase in viscosity, I think that spells real trouble for our IP's, since they tank even with B100, whose viscosity should closely resemble dino.

As of now, I feel like I'm pushing my luck with B100, but if I can't run B100, then consider my newly-repaired golf up for sale immediately.
 

conejo_a_cuatro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Location
Bryn Mawr, PA
TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Hey now, I have another idea. T valve right before the IP, one connector goes to the stock fuel system, the other is a quick-release connector. To the latter, we can connect a small tank of fuel, say 1 gallon. This 1 gallon tank is connected to a fuel filter assembly, and the assembly stays inside the house (somewhere hidden to promote domestic tranquility). Keep the tank close to a heat vent, and full of B100. Go out into the blasting bitter cold, hook up the 1 gallon tank, then start up the beast. Result? 1 gallon is plenty to get to work, school, for most, let's say 40 miles. If your morning commute is longer, 20-30 miles will warm up the engine to operating temperature. Then flip the first switch, coolant starts heating up the stock fuel system. After a few minutes, flip another, car starts running on stock fuel system. Granted it's complicated, but the problem itself is rather complicated, using B100 undiluted in cold weather.
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

conejo,

Problem #1 Gelling

There are SVO users in Denamrk who run 100% SVO all year round. They use an "Ebersbacher" coolant heater to keep the fuel liquid. Here's a link:

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6380

Others have used domestic marine heaters . On a budget, maybe you could locate a used one.


Problem #2 Viscosity.

Biodiesel has an expontial visc. vs. temp. curve like VO.
heated to 150*F, B100 is equal to diesel at ambient temps.
So install simple coolant based fuel heater. Neoteric has one for $60, or find a fuel heat exchanger used from an Audi A8.
 

landshark

Active member
Joined
Sep 8, 2004
Location
Moorpark, Ca
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

The Grease car system is heated all the way, including the fuel hoses. I dont switch over until my temp gauge reads 190. I just took my car from LA to Reno by the 395, which is through mountain passes up to 8700 feet. No problems. I now have over 6k miles on the WVO with no problems. Heat is definatly needed, I know that from the filtering process. If you switch over too early to grease, you will definately have problems, that is why I wait! By the way, I was going up those grades at 80 mph with 4 people and lot of gear on the top of my car. I can't tell the difference between the WVO and diesel when I am driving. Heat is WVO's friend.
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
I have a friend that is using BD mixes in his 99.5 Jetta TDI 5 spd & his 00 Golf auto TDI for over a year . He has had no trouble in the Jetta but the Golf has been as coperative .

The Golf has failed 3 times now in the cold with low % of BD . We are guessing that the failures have something to do with the bigger injection pump in the automaic .

I've also been using BD in my TDI Passats & IDI Jettas for about 4 years .
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
McBrew said:
There's a thread over on one of the WVO forums stating that 170ºF soybean oil is about 12 times more viscous than diesel fuel. That adds up to about double the load on the lift pump.
Actually one guy tested SVO's load on a fip by driving it with an electric motor and recording the current used. He found that despite being 10X more viscous, the load only iincreased by 40%.

I just cold started my TDI testerday. on 90% WVO, 10% kerosene at about 50*F. My pump survived. :) Even though the viscosity was easily 20 or 30X diesel at 0*F.
 

Sam5

Active member
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Location
Iowa City, IA.
TDI
Jetta TDI, 2000, White
To be on the safe side, I think I'll use the fuel that has alot more decades of research and tried and true cause and effect cases to justify its use...the one and only dino.:D
 

fastvicar

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2003
Location
Lancaster, PA, USA
TDI
1996 Passat, Indian Red
Those of you with TDIs with two-tank (heated) kits:

How long are you waiting before you switch over? At what oil temp? I have the Greasecar computerized kit, so I have a pretty good idea what my WVO temp is before I switch over.
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
rotarykid said:
I have a friend that is using BD mixes in his 99.5 Jetta TDI 5 spd & his 00 Golf auto TDI for over a year . He has had no trouble in the Jetta but the Golf has been as coperative .

The Golf has failed 3 times now in the cold with low % of BD . We are guessing that the failures have something to do with the bigger injection pump in the automaic .

I've also been using BD in my TDI Passats & IDI Jettas for about 4 years .
I would suggest drilling out the ball valve in the feed line of the tank sender. I can run washed homemade B50 without any problem to at least-12C. There are several how to threads on this subject.
I doubt the 11mm pump has any better vacuum than the 10mm. Best of luck.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
BTW, just for kicks... this isn't a TDI, or anything direct injected, but...

1985 Jetta Manual said:
Only if neither No. 1 Diesel Fuel nor winterized Diesel Fuel No. 2, nor Kerosene are available, use up to 30 % leaded or unleaded gasoline.
Thought you people who were amazed by gasoline in WVO would be even more amazed by that one.
 

Seth Myers

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Gas in WVO - Diesel Secret experience? (in a tdi)

bhtooefr said:
BTW, just for kicks... this isn't a TDI, or anything direct injected, but...



Thought you people who were amazed by gasoline in WVO would be even more amazed by that one.
I am considering a DieselSecret (www.dieselsecret.com) wvo system in my 99 tdi beetle. It simply uses additives to processed wvo for direct use in the existing tank, no heaters, etc. It uses 10% kerosene (or 20% diesel) for thinning, + 5% regular gas, plus a few oz. of their solution, + DieselKleen-Cetane Boost.
I am a complete novice to wvo, biodiesel, or even diesel.
Anyone with any experience or advice with this system?
Esp. the "using gas in a diesel engine" part?

(I actually hope to not have to use the veggie oil system much, as I intend to put an electric drive in the rear, for an all electric mode, someday -
sorry to do that to an already nice high mpg diesel / alternative fuel vehicle).

Thanks for any advice or stories
 

N2TOH

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2003
Location
Chester County, PA
TDI
none currently
conejo_a_cuatro said:
Hey now, I have another idea. T valve right before the IP, one connector goes to the stock fuel system, the other is a quick-release connector. To the latter, we can connect a small tank of fuel, say 1 gallon. This 1 gallon tank is connected to a fuel filter assembly, and the assembly stays inside the house (somewhere hidden to promote domestic tranquility). Keep the tank close to a heat vent, and full of B100. Go out into the blasting bitter cold, hook up the 1 gallon tank, then start up the beast. Result? 1 gallon is plenty to get to work, school, for most, let's say 40 miles. If your morning commute is longer, 20-30 miles will warm up the engine to operating temperature. Then flip the first switch, coolant starts heating up the stock fuel system. After a few minutes, flip another, car starts running on stock fuel system. Granted it's complicated, but the problem itself is rather complicated, using B100 undiluted in cold weather.
I have been doing the same thing with a 5 gal tank filled with WVO in my 1Z TDI, as well as a friend who has a 6 cylinder Mercedes. We both have no problem with this setup. Granted we are using 3/8" fuel lines.
 

sassyrel

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Location
aplington,iowa
TDI
passat,96,black-metalic
dieselvet--you are exceedingly correct--after 35,000 miles of 66% wvo--that ball valve was nearly stuck--and raised he%& with the transfer part of the injection pump--i took it out--the pump quieted down--but now im going to put an in tank pump in--and see if it acts ok--now you have to crank like crazy to get it to start---hoping the 6 psi pump will make it pop right off--after starts--still a bit sluggish--but before wouldnt hardly go--
 
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