The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI's

NCTDIGuy

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2001 VW Golf Blue
The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I would like to know what TDI Mechanics and Enthusiasts think about running waste vegetable oil through TDI engines. I would like to know if anyone has experienced trouble or has information related to damages waste vegetable oil may cause to TDI's. I think there needs to be some clear research done before more people damage their vehicles trying to install these do it yourself kits.
 

cage

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Mar 25, 1999
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lakewood, ohio
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

There are many cases of fuel pumps failing. Veggie oil while thicker than diesel doesn't seem to have the ability to lube and cool the pump like diesel.
 

Vegi_VW

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I'm not aware of a TDI injection pump failure that has been definitively linked to running clean, dry vegetable oil. I have a personal interest in hearing about any IP failure due to VO -- my 2001 Jetta with a single-tank Elsbett conversion runs almost exclusively on used soybean oil, about 10K mi so far without any significant issues. (I can get away with a single-tank conversion since I live in northern California.) Can you point me to an IP failure that has been shown to be the direct result of running properly filtered and dewatered vegoil in a TDI with heated fuel?

I do agree that more datapoints are needed before we can conclude with scientific certainty that VO doesn't reduce engine/IP life. I don't think we've moved beyond the experimental stage on this, and eventually I'd like to know for sure that running vegoil isn't going to cause problems over the long term. Unfortunately, it's hard to prove or disprove vegetable oil as a direct cause of IP failure, since few TDIs have been run on VO for their entire lifetimes, and it's not like failure of pumps running exclusively on diesel is unheard of.
But life is uncertain, and we each make our own decisions based on the information we have and our priorities. So far my decision has been to go veggie, and I haven't regretted it yet (knock on wood). I'll let you know if I do.
 

BioDiesel

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The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Before NC were you from Missouri?

20,000 Germans not enough datapoints? -> www.fmso.de
95% success in the UK not good enough? ->http://www.vegburner.co.uk/database.html

'96 Passat TDI w/ Elsbett SVO conversion and 200,000 miles not far enough?

Even if a WVO study was commisioned tommorow, in the two years it took to reach a conclusion, the avg WVO driver would have saved $2500! The conclusion, no matter how dire, would be moot.
 

BioDiesel

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

"(I can get away with a single-tank conversion since I live in northern California.) "

Hey! Another "ein-tank" Elsbett!!! Great!
But ein-tanks are the rage in Northern Europe despite
-10*C cold starts on pure SVO. I'm a chicken, I dilute my WVO with kerosene in the winter.
 

McBrew

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2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I'm not brave enough to try a WVO conversion with my TDI yet. Also, I need the "trunk" space (Golf). I'm currently working on a WVO conversion (two tank) on a 1985 300D. I was just working on the 300D, as a matter of fact. doing some welding and fiberglass work on the floor. I hope to have the interior/seats back in it soon... then I can get more work done on the WVO conversion. It's running B100 for now.. so that's a start, eh?

NCTDIGuy, good luck with your conversion if you go that route. The 300D gives me a lot more room to work... especially for the 24 gallon WVO tank in the trunk!
 

Got diesel

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The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

nctdiguy,do you still need help with your car.I sent you an E-mail ..Emmanuel
 

Drivbiwire

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I'm not aware of a TDI injection pump failure that has been definitively linked to running clean, dry vegetable oil. I have a personal interest in hearing about any IP failure due to VO -- my 2001 Jetta with a single-tank Elsbett conversion runs almost exclusively on used soybean oil, about 10K mi so far without any significant issues. (I can get away with a single-tank conversion since I live in northern California.) Can you point me to an IP failure that has been shown to be the direct result of running properly filtered and dewatered vegoil in a TDI with heated fuel?

I do agree that more datapoints are needed before we can conclude with scientific certainty that VO doesn't reduce engine/IP life. I don't think we've moved beyond the experimental stage on this, and eventually I'd like to know for sure that running vegoil isn't going to cause problems over the long term. Unfortunately, it's hard to prove or disprove vegetable oil as a direct cause of IP failure, since few TDIs have been run on VO for their entire lifetimes, and it's not like failure of pumps running exclusively on diesel is unheard of.
But life is uncertain, and we each make our own decisions based on the information we have and our priorities. So far my decision has been to go veggie, and I haven't regretted it yet (knock on wood). I'll let you know if I do.
I can't count the number of injection pumps replaced due to WVO/SVO use. Injection pumps that I have seen failed due to excessive wear on the pump cam plate rollers, glycerine build on the electronic sensors (Fuel temp sensors), clogged timing advance selenoid preventing timing control, Damaged injectors (Internal and nozzle hole wear), failed low stage pump (Vane pump) just to name a few.

Engineering studies have been done that show that without removal of the glycerine in the oil you will damage the fuel systems. The TDI specifically burns the fuel at much hotter temperatures than the older IDI diesels. The TDI operates at 10x's the fuel pressure or in the case of the PD engine 15x's the fuel pressure. This increase in fuel pressure places great demand on proper fuel viscosity. Imagine substituting grease for 5w40 synthetic oil in your car...how long will your turbo run on grease?

Sure you can heat the oil to reduce its viscosity but you still have the primary issue of glycerine content GLYCERINE DOES NOT BURN! Glycerine leaves nozzle deposits when it breaks down under pressure and heat. The older IDI diesels got away with using it because they used a single hole PINTLE design injector and low pressure injection pumps. The TDI uses a high pressure pump derived from the older IDI diesel further placing much greater demands on its ability to pump at great pressure thicker fluids. Factor in the TDI uses a 5 hole nozzle (non-pintle) injector tip where the total size of the holes are 1/10th the size of the older IDI diesels.

Then you get into internal issues such as the pressure wave speed through the fluids and higher fuel temps for engine control where the engine is not programmed for this.

If you really want to be nice to Mother Earth AND YOUR POCKET BOOK use Biodiesel, TDI's are designed to run on Biodiesel that meets the proper specifications!!! NO GLYCERINE, NO METHANOL, NO ETHANOL, FILTERED TO 2 MICRONS, LOW WATER CONTENT etc etc etc.

On average most WVO/SVO owners that I replace pumps for make it about 1 year or so before destroying the injection pump. The best part it after they replace the injection pump they then have issues with the injectors causing a COMPLETE replacement of those. They are never money ahead and ALWAYS lose any gains simply due to component damage and replacement.

SVO/WVO DON'T DO IT!!! if you want to keep your TDI running properly without damage!

DB
 

BKmetz

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The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I'm moving this thread to the biodiesel section.
 

Brian's96TDIPASSAT

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The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Hehe, I've heard of one case on the news here in Connecticut of a bear that took a liking to the smell of some gentlemens fry daddy munching tdi so much that he allegidly tore half the car up in search of it, so yes, I see how it can cause damage, especially if Yogi is in town........
 

latitude500

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Jetta 1998 Green
The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I converted my 98 jetta back in march of this year. I haven't had any problems with teh set up. I did find out that I'm switching to grease to soon, I guess I'm going to need to wait just a little longer before I move over.
 

nicklockard

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The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Yogi wouldn't do that; he's "smahter than the av-er-age-a be-ya!"
 

Vegi_VW

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Drivbiwire: First off, thanks for contributing for this thread. You've got a lot of experience dealing with these engines, far more than I do, and I respect your opinion.

However, what better place to be disagreeable than the internet?
I'd like to refer you back to the second paragraph of my original post:

Unfortunately, it's hard to prove or disprove vegetable oil as a direct cause of IP failure, since few TDIs have been run on VO for their entire lifetimes, and it's not like failure of pumps running exclusively on diesel is unheard of.
You said:

I can't count the number of injection pumps replaced due to WVO/SVO use. Injection pumps that I have seen failed due to excessive wear on the pump cam plate rollers, glycerine build on the electronic sensors (Fuel temp sensors), clogged timing advance selenoid preventing timing control, Damaged injectors (Internal and nozzle hole wear), failed low stage pump (Vane pump) just to name a few.
I'm sure you've seen these problems in cars converted for SVO. Now, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but are you saying you've never seen any of these problems on pumps running only D2? The usual candidate for a SVO/WVO conversion is a car that is beyond warranty coverage, typically 100K+ miles -- people are reluctant to mess with it before then. Who knows what fuel those pumps have seen and what conditions they've been operating under before they see a drop of VO. Can you say definitively that the failure of those pumps were due to the use of properly heated, clean, dry vegoil? Did you tear them down and document the wear prior to conversion (in retrospect, I wish I had done so), then monitor or ensure fuel quality after conversion? If you did, I'd love to see the results. If not, all you've got is the same thing people with engines running successfully on VO have: anecdotes.

I'm sure it's possible to have a pump/injectors fail on VO. It's also possible to have them fail on diesel. Anecdotes are great, but we need one of two things to determine something with certainty: data that demonstrates causation, or data that show relative probabilities. Otherwise your data is uncontrolled (and yes, I'm a scientist.)

The point of my original post is that so far I haven't seen either form of data yet. I'm not arguing that SVO/WVO is perfectly safe, like some VO users/advocates; as far as I'm concerned, the question is still open.

On average most WVO/SVO owners that I replace pumps for make it about 1 year or so before destroying the injection pump.
It's been 11 months. Like I said, if that happens I'll let you know.
 

DSLDAV

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May 17, 2005
TDI
1997 Passat
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Hello, I converted to WVO back last August and have over 36K miles on it with no trouble. The car (Passat TDI) has overall 211K miles. I filter down to 10 micron before I use it and add Diessel Clean additive.

dsldav
 

mattsVTtdi

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jetta, 1999(A4-ALH), white
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Glycerin is the by-product of the chemical reaction that makes biodiesel - it doesn't exist in SVO. Any chance all those IP failures where caused by using bad biodiesel during start-up and short drives on a 2-tank WVO conversion set-up? Seems entirely possible ... ASTM Biodiesel is certainly not widely available - at least not in Vermont - and if glycerin is the suspect.... Also, what would water or fried chicken chunkies in unfiltered or poor qulaity SVO do to an IP? That could be it too.

Drivbiwire - you seem to have quite some experience with these failures (I hope you don't feel attacked by posted comments)... I'd be interested to know the ratio of IP failures in WVO converted TDI's compared to the unconverted (2:1 ... 10:1 ... 100:1)and how many of those were using homemade biodiesel as well. Not that you keep records - but maybe have you a sense.

This is a great discussion - Ultimately I would like to see VW or somebody develop a car - off the lot - that burns on SVO. I would like to think an engineered system could avoid many possible failures.

More testimonials will help learn the truth - I have a conversion kit in my kitchen waiting for me to have the time (this weekend?) to put in in my '99 Jetta. The engine is new to the car (and I have the old IP just in case a worst case scenario comes up) so hopefully that will enable me to blame everything fuel related on SVO.

A call to users - please please use good quality de-watered, filtered VO so we have less failures and the a stronger hand to prove its worth in these cars.
 

Hayseed

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2005 Jetta Wagon GLS TDI, Reflex Silver, black leather interior
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

I don't know about the effects of WVO but, I had by 2005 Jetta in for the 5000 mile oil change today and asked about it. The pretty tech service girl showed my a VW bulletin that said no more than 5 % Veg oil in the mix, I think its called B-5. Too bad, I have lots of WVO available and it runs fine in both my Dodge and tractors.

On a side note, I wondered why my car used over half a litre of oil since I got it. They kept my car to fix the leaking oil problem. I never saw the leaked oil because it was all being caught by that pan under the engine. I think its the valve cover gasket. All that shielding does have disadvantages.

I have a gas powered Jetta loaner, basically the same(even leather seats) except that weird engine design with the really volatile and dangerous fuel. I miss my TDI a lot. It just didn't feel or sound at all right.

Don
 

McBrew

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

B5 is 5% biodiesel, not 5% vegetable oil. Biodiesel is vegetable oil that has been through a conversion process (transesterification) to remove the triglicerides and make it thinner (so that it flows and injects more like diesel fuel).
 

BioDiesel

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'98 Jetta
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

"This increase in fuel pressure places great demand on proper fuel viscosity. Imagine substituting grease for 5w40 synthetic oil in your car...how long will your turbo run on grease?"

WVO is not grease. It's actually equal to SAE 10W.
One Range Rover owner is actually using it as CRANKCASE oil.
Been running about a year. So I doubt cam wear was accelerated by it's use if it can withstand crankshaft pressures.
I doubt the pressure was increased either. The injectors act as a pressure relief valve. Once pressure builds to the injector pop-off point, it drops. The increased viscosity does add to the vane pump load. 40% by one measurement.

Temperatures. One Florida user measured 120*F with 90*F ambient from the IP temp sensor in a _stock_ TDI.
Conversion temps are higher , 150 - 160*F range. So higher, but unfortunately we don't know the upper range limit.

But one thing DBW confirms is that WVO conversion failures are largely undocumented.

I did read recently where some restauarantuers were cleaning their fryer oil with pumice. That could be bad news for an unsuspecting wvo'er. Make sure your wvo isn't 'mis-treated'
Cold filter to 1 micron, de-water and check the acidity is nuetral.
 

AutoDiesel

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

But one thing DBW confirms is that WVO conversion failures are largely undocumented.
There are plenty of reports of problems with WVO.
You just aren't looking in the right places.

Controversy about SVO/WVO is nothing new.
I used to dabble with it back in the 80's
with the Mercedes I had then.

The biggest reason I won't use SVO/WVO is this though....

DfT Biofuel Evaluation - Final Report of Test
VVO100 showed increases in HC emissions of 250% and CO emissions of 420% in the VW Passat and increases in HC and CO of 170% and 60% respectively in the Peugeot 106, compared to baseline ULSD.
VVO100 also gave increases in PM of 100% in the VW Passat and 8% reduction in NOx compared to baseline ULSD. These effects were not seen in the Peugeot 106 vehicle.
The rise in HC emissions on VVO100 in the VW Passat was mirrored by a rise in small combustion products, such as methane and ethane, and partial oxidation products, such as formaldehyde. The reduction in NOx was shown to be primarily due to a reduction in NO.
The effects of RME5 on unregulated pollutants were unclear, for example no discernible effects on aldehyde emisssions were seen.
VVO100 gave clear increases in PAH emissions compared to baseline ULSD in the VW Passat; for example, benzo(a)pyrene increased by nearly 20 times. Such effects on PAH emssions were not identifiable on the Peugeot 106.
It is likely, from emissions evidence and published studies, that many of the emissions effects seen on VVO100 fuel were associated primarily with poor atomisation due to the high viscosity/molecular weight of the fuel. However, the magnitude of these effects was engine-specific."



Emissions go way up with SVO/WVO.
 

BioDiesel

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

" ... compared to baseline ULSD. "

You missed this bit. I read this study too. If you compare the emissionas and average it out, WVO100 in the two cars comes out between HSD and ULSD.

You must be using ULSD.

You probably also missed Niels Anso's critique of the their testing methodology. To paraphrase, 'it's what's to be expected when SVO tests are done by those completely new to SVO usage.' Briefly, he criticized their use of high phosphorous content SVO. SVO made to Weihenstephan standards is low in phosphourus. High phosphourus content is similar to high sulpher content in petro diesel. It leads to high levels of soot formation.
 

BioDiesel

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

"There are plenty of reports of problems with WVO.
You just aren't looking in the right places."

I doubt it. I regularly post here and at infopop and biodieselnow. Also vegoil-diesel on Yahoo. Not to mention th e German SVO sites. And vegburner in the UK.

Problems have occured. But I haven't seen any that weren't either:
a) really old engines
b) mis application or obsolete methods
c) failures in the conversion process ( mis-wired , etc )
d) poor wvo processing
e) poor luck ( the guy who had a tankfull of wax )
 

BioDiesel

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Drivbiwire

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

You know what the folks say everytime they call me with a failed injection pump? "I'd post it but the WVO/SVO fanatics will flame me" Sad part is they are right.

Fact: TDI's ARE NOT designed to run the much thicker oils

Fact: Diesel fuel is SO much thinner than SVO that its like comparing 10W40 oil to WD40. I laugh when I read about people who say the heck with heating it and run it straight because they live in Florida (I assume a temp of 40C in those areas). The tdi injection pump requires a very thin fuel. It's insane how much thicker the SVO/WVO is compared to #2 diesel or Biodiesel!

Biodiesel @40C - 1.9-6.5 cSt

Diesel #2 @40C - 1.7-4.1 cSt

Soybean oil @40C - 28.86 cSt!!!

Sunflower oil @40C - 39.95 cSt


In comparison Mobil 1 Truck and SUV at normal operating temperature (100C) is 14.8 cSt or 1/2 the viscosity of SVO/WVO! I am comparing the two to make the point that your injection pump is trying to push a VERY thick fluid through .16 micron holes at 16,000psi-30,000psi and achieve atomization bottom line is that IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!

Don't make light of the fact you guys are recomending that a TDI injection pump is to push a fluid that is 13-15 times thicker than what it was designed to do and it's expected to survive! IT WON'T!!!

Funniest part is this comes from somebody who is a proponent of thicker oils...


If you want to be good to the planet run ASTM Biodiesel in your TDI, filter it and feel good about it.

Bottom line: SVO/WVO DON'T DO IT in a TDI!!!

DB
 

VWannabe

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Lawrenceville, GA USA
Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Biodiesel @40C - 1.9-6.5 cSt

Diesel #2 @40C - 1.7-4.1 cSt

Soybean oil @40C - 28.86 cSt!!!

Sunflower oil @40C - 39.95 cSt
If someone is running SVO/WVO at ambient temperatures, there will be problems. If you read Elsbett's findings (probably the oldest SVO outfitter and the one with the most knowledge), the temperatures recommended are much higher than this, more like 80C or 170F.

In comparison Mobil 1 Truck and SUV at normal operating temperature (100C) is 14.8 cSt or 1/2 the viscosity of SVO/WVO! I am comparing the two to make the point that your injection pump is trying to push a VERY thick fluid through .16 micron holes at 16,000psi-30,000psi and achieve atomization bottom line is that IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!
Now you are comparing a motor oil at 100C to SVO/WVO at 40C. All aftermarket kit suppliers for SVO highly recommend not running SVO without heating. Running SVO/WVO without additional heat is not good for the engine, which is why the kits supply heating for the SVO.
 

BioDiesel

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

"I laugh when I read about people who say the heck with heating it and run it straight because they live in Florida (I assume a temp of 40C in those areas). "

Even in Florida and similar climes wvo users blend in 5 - 10 % unleaded gas. This has reduces the viscosity a great deal. At least by half. And they do it in IDI engines in old M-B's and F-250's.
 

mattsVTtdi

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Vermont
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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Anyone know the viscosity of 170F soy oil?
I was under the impression it gets real close to #2 Diesel.

Bottom line, I think, is that it's real easy to mess up a conversion, not operate it properly or use poor oil that will ruin your IP in a TDI ... but if done right it can work, and work well - but it's a risk - and a risk I'm willing to take ... for the first IP anyway.


People are mixing gasoline with their SVO
 

kwong7

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

Here's a quick question: Does anyone know the temperature tolerance of the injection pump? Would 160*F not be a good thing? I've heard that the fuel is suppose to function as coolant for the pump, is that true? If so, would fuel (vegetable oil) at 180*F still serve as a coolant (considering the pressure the fuel goes through...it might)?

I'm planning on using B20, until I install my Vormax and Veg Term. Once I have those in place, I'll start using an 80% B20, mixed with 20% WVO. This should give me a composed blend of:
16 parts Biodiesel (B100)
64 parts Petrodiesel (D2)
20 parts WVO

I feel that this blend would be a good balance for my economy, worries, and ecology.
 

BioDiesel

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Re: The affects of Waste Vegetable oil on TDI\'s

"would fuel (vegetable oil) at 180*F still serve as a coolant?"
Only if you and your TDI were about to plunge into the sun.
 
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