TDI Wrangler, here it comes

polaryj

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Location
York, PA
TDI
2002 Golf
so its just come down the pike thats the new project. no parts yet, but here's the plan. any input, advice, or help with parts would be spectacular.

Jeep CJ
1.9L Turbo Diesel
L52

i'm lookin for a fully mechanical diesel, that won't stay stock for long. injectors and turnin up the fuel is really only the start. bigger turbo would most likley be in the works.

now i'm not a newb to diesels, but new to the VW platform. i've heard the non-turbo 1.9 came with a smaller fueling, but a higher compression ratio. anyone ever thrown a turbo and the larter fueling on that motor? they hold up?

anyone with yota's or some 4x4, what kinda milage do you pull if anywhere close to 3500lbs?

anyone out there got a motor they don't need?
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
polaryj said:
so its just come down the pike thats the new project. no parts yet, but here's the plan. any input, advice, or help with parts would be spectacular.

Jeep CJ
1.9L Turbo Diesel
L52

i'm lookin for a fully mechanical diesel, that won't stay stock for long. injectors and turnin up the fuel is really only the start. bigger turbo would most likley be in the works.

now i'm not a newb to diesels, but new to the VW platform. i've heard the non-turbo 1.9 came with a smaller fueling, but a higher compression ratio. anyone ever thrown a turbo and the larter fueling on that motor? they hold up?

anyone with yota's or some 4x4, what kinda milage do you pull if anywhere close to 3500lbs?

anyone out there got a motor they don't need?
If you are talking 1.9 N/A, then it is not a TDI. You are talking about the indirect injection (IDI) earlier engines. If you want to do lots of boost and fueling, you do not want ultra high compression either. I think the 1.9aaz (the turbo IDI) would be a dog in a jeep. Have you thought about using a TDI from MK3 or MK4 Jetta/golf (AHU or ALH). If you insist on mechanical, you can get a good reliable mechanical pump built for the TDI's, to your performance spec, and use turbo of your choice. Probably 30-35mpg.
 

Spulen81

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2004
Location
Warners, NY
I would do a W56 trans or an R if you want a little more strength. The Toyota t-case (passenger drop) will drop on the wrong side for a Jeep unless you are using a newer Taco trans/case. Something to think about.
I would stick with a TDI engine, you can convert it to mechanical still if you want.

I'm getting 31-32 mpg in my TDI 4runner (1st gen) with 32s.
 

Frankendiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Location
Cedar Rapids, IA
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
A coworker of mine did a Cummins 3.9L (marine) swap into his Wrangler. 30mpg and lotsa power baby. He has a website I could dig up if you are interested in that route. Probably a bit more simple since A.) it's been done before and B.) it's non-computer controlled.

Nonetheless, don't let me talk you out of it. :p Afterall, I'd be kinda hypocritical to say you shouldn't do a TDI swap....

Travis
 

polaryj

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Joined
May 21, 2008
Location
York, PA
TDI
2002 Golf
factory TDI motor it is

i was told the 1.9L came turbo in a fully mechanical form that was DI....in early cars didn't it?

fully mechanical for the win offroad, lots less to go wrong

i'm 99% sure i'd run an R151 off a turbo 22R motor, good strength and LOTS of t-case options

i would be VERY interested in that 3.9L build if you can find it. i've concidered the 4BT cummins but the over-all size and weight and the fact that its an overly mechanicly noisy motor steared me more towards the VW motor.
 
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kilo69

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Location
Halifax, NS, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon TDI, 98 Jetta TDI
I'll keep an eye on this... I'd like to make a TDI CJ-8 at some point.

Seeing how they came with an 82 HP I4 or 110 HP I6 factory a TDI with some mods would do much better!
 

polaryj

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Joined
May 21, 2008
Location
York, PA
TDI
2002 Golf
i just had a random thought....

buy a delivery truck with the 4bt and TH400 tranny, take anything i need from the truck, swap on a 4x4 th400 and use that.

THEN... take the cab off the truck, chop the frame some, lower the rear about 10" and make a box trailer. now thats sounding fruitfull.
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
polaryj said:
i just had a random thought....

buy a delivery truck with the 4bt and TH400 tranny, take anything i need from the truck, swap on a 4x4 th400 and use that.

THEN... take the cab off the truck, chop the frame some, lower the rear about 10" and make a box trailer. now thats sounding fruitfull.
The Cummins 4BT is definatley an industructable engine with tons of torque. I had looked at using one of those when I did my F150 conversion. Ended up using a 6BT, mainly for availabilty reasons. The down soide on the 4BT is the vibration level and weight, but you can not compare the torque between that engine and a VW. 400ft-lbs would be an easy number. The VW 1.9TDI would be at least 3-400lbs lighter, and vibration free in comparison.
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
polaryj said:
factory TDI motor it is

i was told the 1.9L came turbo in a fully mechanical form that was DI....in early cars didn't it?

the VW motor.
No, it went 1.6NA, 1.6TD, then 1.9NA & 1.9TD (both indirect injection), then AHU and 1Z TDI, which was 1.9 direct injection, Bosch VE rotary style pumps, but elctronically controlled.
 

Dougalicious

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Location
Florida
TDI
None :(
Frankendiesel said:
A coworker of mine did a Cummins 3.9L (marine) swap into his Wrangler. 30mpg and lotsa power baby. He has a website I could dig up if you are interested in that route. Probably a bit more simple since A.) it's been done before and B.) it's non-computer controlled.

Nonetheless, don't let me talk you out of it. :p Afterall, I'd be kinda hypocritical to say you shouldn't do a TDI swap....

Travis
That's exactly what I came in here to mention. For less money, and probably much less headache, being that it's a mechanical engine, you'll get more power and comparable mileage.

Unless you're thinking TDI just for the "do something different" route, in which case go for it.
 

lews930

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Location
tampa,florida
TDI
96 passat
If you are considering the 4bt engine go to this site. 4btswaps.com
lots of swaps and lots of different engines
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
There is a 4BT local to me in a bread truck for sale, but I have never seen one swapped into a jeep before. I have seen a Samurai with a VW1.6T in it, went great, but they're 1,400 lbs lighter than a jeep.

The gas Jeep I-4 you mentioned was either the Iron Duke GM151 or the Jeep I-4 150, both which produced just slightly less hp and about 125 to 130 ft-lbs torque. I doubt you would see anything but a mileage improvement by putting a TDI into a CJ, especially the CJ-8, which is heavier. The jeeps with the I-4 in them compensated their lack of power with lower axle gearing, 3.73 with the GM151 and 3.54 with the AMC150, the I-6 had 2.73's stock in the early 80's.

I have an '81 CJ-8 (Scrambler) and a Samurai, and I wouldn't think of putting a TDI in the CJ, but it'd be a ton of fun in the Zuk. Just my $.02.

Since you asked about parts, my Scrambler has a GM305, SM465, NP205, and Scout D44's with 4.10's and lockers, and I toyed around with getting rid of it. Too bad you live so far away, but the 1/4" thick floorboards would be too heavy for even a built TDI anyway.
 
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polaryj

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Joined
May 21, 2008
Location
York, PA
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2002 Golf
Abacus said:
There is a 4BT local to me in a bread truck for sale, but I have never seen one swapped into a jeep before. I have seen a Samurai with a VW1.6T in it, went great, but they're 1,400 lbs lighter than a jeep.

The gas Jeep I-4 you mentioned was either the Iron Duke GM151 or the Jeep I-4 150, both which produced just slightly less hp and about 125 to 130 ft-lbs torque. I doubt you would see anything but a mileage improvement by putting a TDI into a CJ, especially the CJ-8, which is heavier. The jeeps with the I-4 in them compensated their lack of power with lower axle gearing, 3.73 with the GM151 and 3.54 with the AMC150, the I-6 had 2.73's stock in the early 80's.

I have an '81 CJ-8 (Scrambler) and a Samurai, and I wouldn't think of putting a TDI in the CJ, but it'd be a ton of fun in the Zuk. Just my $.02.

Since you asked about parts, my Scrambler has a GM305, SM465, NP205, and Scout D44's with 4.10's and lockers, and I toyed around with getting rid of it. Too bad you live so far away, but the 1/4" thick floorboards would be too heavy for even a built TDI anyway.
1/4" thick floorboards???? why? ...fiberglass?

gota love the sm465, i have a GM350/SM465/NP205 in a 1979 suburban running 38.5x11 Boggers

also have a YJ, 4.6L I6 stroker/ax-15/Dana300 running D44/GM12 bolt, 4.56, fully locked, cage, and 36x13.5 IROKs

this diesel jeep is a build for my dad.


 

polaryj

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Joined
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Location
York, PA
TDI
2002 Golf
so not one person has thought the VW diesel in a jeep would be a good idea... every one of you guys said it would work, but you would all do the 4bt first....
 

Spulen81

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Joined
Mar 30, 2004
Location
Warners, NY
Not me. I like the 4BT alot but I think its too big and heavy for a Wrangler personally. I would love one in a Suburban though! I think a larger heavier vehicle will soak up the vibration better.
A TDI will make 200 ft/lbs with just a nozzle upgrade, plus its ~350 lbs. lighter on the nose. Its shorter also so your weight balance will be farther back. You can push them to 300 ft/lbs+ if you want to.
 

kilo69

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Location
Halifax, NS, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon TDI, 98 Jetta TDI
I'm definately thinking VW TDI would work...

I'm not looking for a big hp/tq jump... Something between the range of the 2.5L and 4.0L Jeep puts in the YJ/TJ but gets twice the mileage ;)

Geared properly I feel the TDI would do well on the road as well as off-road.

You'd likely need a 4:1 T-case as you'd need to run some high gearing to keep the TDI in the powerband.
 

mr.mindless

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Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
I'm still seriously thinking of a TDI in a YJ frame and tub I have. I've got a trans and tcase from an '85 Yota (and the axles too but they are 5" narrower than stock YJ) that with a call to Acme and sourcing a TDI would make a real nice swap.
I'd really rather do it in a Sammi or Tracker and keep it to run myself rather than having a Jeep that I probably won't be 100% happy with.
This is what I wheel now. '98 Dakota with a 318/44RE/231HD and a locked high pinion 60 and welded Sterling 10.25" with 5.38s on 40" MT/Rs. Sorry, best pic I have handy.


 

polaryj

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Location
York, PA
TDI
2002 Golf
Spulen81 said:
Not me. I like the 4BT alot but I think its too big and heavy for a Wrangler personally. I would love one in a Suburban though! I think a larger heavier vehicle will soak up the vibration better.
A TDI will make 200 ft/lbs with just a nozzle upgrade, plus its ~350 lbs. lighter on the nose. Its shorter also so your weight balance will be farther back. You can push them to 300 ft/lbs+ if you want to.
what would i expect to pay for a good TDI, then how much to mod it. what would it take to get as much reliable HP out of a TDI as i can?

how hard is a ready to run TDI to find?

i'm guessing computer, injectors, turbo upgrade or mod, what works??
 

mr.mindless

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Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
time to pull up a chair and do some (a lot?) of reading in the other forums here. this has all been covered a number of times. start with the FAQs on power, read some threads in 'performance' and find some motors on Ebay and the classifieds here....
 

mr.mindless

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Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
I think 200HP on a pre-TDI VW 1.9 is optimistic. perhaps possible but not easy. on a TDI with a mechanical pump it has been done.
 

Spulen81

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Joined
Mar 30, 2004
Location
Warners, NY
Its the torque that counts, 200HP is really hard to get to. 200 lb/ft. of torque is really easy. $300 nozzels and you are there. Thats all I have in mine, I drive it 65 to 70 miles everyday at highway speeds. I don't think its really stressed much at all.
Expect to pay $1000 to $2500 for a decent swap. There are deals out there if your really look hard. I've bought one needing work for $500 and another for almost 2 grand in really good working order. I also drove to Canada to pick them up. I've seen entire parts cars go for $2500 to $3000, these can work out really well because you part everything you don't need to recoupe so money.
The good part is that you can always get your money back out of the engine if you decide to sell it off.
 

jimfoo

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Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Location
Evergreen, CO
TDI
1966 Land Rover IDI being converted to TDI
I have a mech TDI in my Land Rover. I was almost able to keep up with a Wrangler with a modded 4.0 HO, but my clutch was slipping. On a recent trip to Moab, I got 30.8 mpg, 32 mpg highway figures, and 21.8 mpg doing 150 miles all off road and 60 back to Moab on the highway. My truck weighs about 3500 lbs. My engine isn't modded much, .205 nozzles, VNT running 15 lbs boost, 10mm head and fuel not turned up too much. I say go for the TDI. I did have loads of overheating problems with the AAZ(1.9 IDI). The TDI runs way cooler although I also have an added on oil cooler and ceramic coated the pistons.
 

Pat Dolan

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Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
No doubt about it, a TDI can make middle of the road numbers fairly easily, but the IDI engines can come close for even less money. You already HAVE a purely mechanical pump, and the engines are a dime a dozen. Once you start looking for 200+ HP, it really doesn't matter if you are talking TDI or IDI, you are going to spend a lot of cash.

Check out the hotbed of IDI places: http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=7325be1bf2895d8e7957a1ceeaf1eaa3

Now, let me throw a few curve balls at you: The IDI was available in 1.5, 1.6 and 1.9, but it also had a 5 cyl counterpart that was 2.0 and 2.4. The 2.0 came in '80 - '85 Audi 5000 diesels (NA and TD) both sides of the border and the 2.4 engine was available in Canada only in NA Eurovans in the mid '90s, and is just the 1.9 with an extra cylinder. The junk yards in the rust belt of Ontario & Quebec have a lot of them from commercial service van market. All of the bits and pieces for the 4 banger are applicable in the 5. There was also a 2.4 6 cyl version availale in Volvos of the '80s, also not very common, but available, but it really just adds a more weight for the extra cylinder, some head sealing issues, but no more displacement than the later 2.4 I-5.

The TDI is also available in a 2.5 I-5, but never sold here so you have to bring it in from Europe. We are putting one into my bud's Vanagon Syncro Westfalia right now, converted to M-TDI (mechanical pump done by Giles Gallie @ Performance Diesel Injection in Toronto ON) to make the neatest off-road camper possible. Problem with this one is cost.

If you really want to keep the driveline in one piece, go for the extra cylinder. While overall torque is proportionally higher, the overlap of power pulses makes the loading on the driveline much lower (no torque reversals). You are going to need a custom adapter (Audi bolt pattern instead of VW) to do that. I think there is a VW bolt pattern to Toyota adapter commercially available for the 4 bangers though.
 

quietmission

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Location
Boston, MA
TDI
2000 Golf TDI , 04 S500, 95 GTI TDI (Past)
I think that the jeep would work with a TDI. Check out this thread for an extra cab Toyota 4x4 with a 1.9TD IDI engine. The owner said that he has decent power with the AAZ Td engine with little to no mods. I am planning to do a similar toyota swap and my engine is from a 97 TDI getting done at MrChill right now.
http://www.yotatech.com/f162/vw-diesel-build-up-135203/index9.html

Also Spulen here has done a Toyota swap with great success with the TDI. I believe that the wrangler is probably around the same size as the toyota.
 

mr.mindless

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Jan 23, 2006
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Rochester, NY
TDI
2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
remember the stock 2.5 4 bangers in the YJs were making about the same power as a stock TDI. a hopped up TDI comes close to the output of the 4L. I have a stupid 4L taking up space that I want gone, so getting one in my YJ is unlikely....
 

jimfoo

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Location
Evergreen, CO
TDI
1966 Land Rover IDI being converted to TDI
Pulling a trailer with scrap metal, total combined weight of 5380 lbs, I out accelerated a car on the 2 lane onramp to the freeway. Even if the TD(I) has the same power as what you are taking out, the torque curve will be better and so will the mileage.
 
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