TDI with a 4L65 automatic in a Jeep TJ

[mcneil]

Hi mcneil, awesome thread. I read it a couple weeks ago front to back.
Im in the middle of a convertion myself (TDI in a Sonoma). I'll also use the 4L60E.
My question is: I saw in the very first post you said you had a torque converter built for yours. What stall speed did you go with?
I have my TC at the shop right now, but we are unsure what to tune it to for stall speed. If I were to guess I'd set it at 1800-1900 RPM, what say you?

Sorry, it was long break with the new job and some house project.
Re: stall speed - I think it will be a guess. It's affected by motor torque curve and vehicle weight, and in our swaps there aren't any similar setups to compare against.

I wouldn't worry about trying for a super low stall on this. With the TC lockup, it won't affect highway mileage.

 

[mcneil]

If I am not mistaken your model year Wrangler uses a CCD bus? I think in 2003 they cheanged to the PCI bus and the gauge cluster was updated with all LED's and some extra lights like "Front Lock" and "Rear Lock" for the Rubicon models. What commands are you sending the Melexis 10407 gauge driver over the serial line? Are they AT commands like the ELM327? Can I see your arduino code? I want to do something similar with my 85 cherokee diesel that I am swapping a 2001 dashboard into.

I tried to read the CCD bus with a Kvaser but I think there's something weird with the high/low levels. CCD high/low voltage isn't the same as SAE CAN.
But you're right, all the TJs went CAN in 2003.

The Melexis chip uses a SPI bus protocol, it takes two byte words that command a particular gauge to move to a particular point. The max refresh rate is well above the max speed the dials can move, I think I was running it at 500kHz, so that's going to be refreshing 5 gauges about 6 times per second. PM me your email and I'll send you the arduino file.

 

[mcneil]

It's been almost a year since I posted any progress on this, but progress has happened, specifically:
1. The MegaShift board is complete and working.

Bench testing revealed some differences between the MS build guide and this application. Namely,
- brake sense is reversed from how I'd have done it, it's built as a 12v sense circuit and it would integrate easier if it were a ground sense. But no problem a pull-up resistor wasn't able to solve.
- TPS is expected over CAN in the build guide, I think MS assumed you're going to be using the Megashift with a Megasquirt ECM. No problem, there's a input channel for a TPS sensor, just remember to add the wire to the connector. The Megashift uses the TPS as a variable in the shift table, like the kickdown linkage on old automatics. It's looking for a 0-5V signal, and the VW has that at T121/69 or pin 4 of the pedal connector.
- The Megashift case uses all self-tapping screws. That sucks, so I drilled and tapped them for M3.


2. The engine harnesses are working. I had to splice these together from 3 different ones. I had a late ALH harness and 2/3s of an early euro ALH harness. It took me a while to figure out what went where, and vdubspeed's thread here was a huge help.


3. The Jeep power distribution center now acts like the VW relay panel. TJs have something similar to J317 (aka Relay 109) that lets the ECU switch on all fuel/engine systems. I was able to clip out all the Jeep ECU related wiring and make something that was functionally equivalent to J317. The catch is that the relays in the TJ draw 200mA to close, where relay 109 is only 100mA. So I'm going to put a 75 ohm resistor in between T121/18 and the relay. The Jeep relay seems to actuate with as little as 40mA, so 100mA should be fine. The ECU may be fine without the resitor, but I don't want to run any risk of frying something with twice the current it was designed for.

So this was today, the checkout of all the harnesses. I was able to connect the VCDS over the OBDII port while sitting in the driver's seat, it cranks, no codes except what should be there (ie, immo).

Next up is an immobilizer delete and finish taping up the harnesses.

 

[mcneil]

First diesel fuel has been added. Whoever made the regulations on these new "spill proof" 5-gal cans needs to be slapped.

For a refresher, the fuel system consists of:

In-tank Jeep fuel pump -> Holley non-bypass regulator -> ALH filter -> Injection pump

Return is through the filter, and back to the tank like the OEM VW setup.

The first thing I found after I powered up the Jeep fuel pump was that the Holley regulator doesn't play nice with the Jeep pump. You could hear some kind of nasty pressure oscillation that was making the hoses shake. The Holley was factory set to 4 psi, and the jeep pump makes something like 60 psi and draws 130 watts.

I added a 4.7 ohm power resistor on the fuel pump line. Open circuit resistance of the fuel pump is 1.6 ohms, so this cuts the pump power to 30 watts. No noises or vibrating hoses with the resistor in place. The jeep pump only needs to lift and prime the ALH to the filter, so this should work.

 

[mcneil]

Combustion has happened! Internal combustion, even!

I bled out the lines and it fired up for the 1 second before the immo cut it off. Bleeding the air with the immo is a pain, it only fuels for a second before it cuts. So you have to keep turning key off then crank.

But it runs.. so I'm pretty happy.

Now to tune out that immobilizer.

 

[normalicy]

I've been watching this post for a long time. Really interested to see if this engine has what it takes to drag the Jeep around. Also interested because I have a TDI Beetle.

 

[jimbote]

I've been watching this post for a long time. Really interested to see if this engine has what it takes to drag the Jeep around. Also interested because I have a TDI Beetle.

have you read any of the other conversion threads on completed swaps?... of course the tdi has enough power to "drag" the jeep around, and toyotas and porcine syncro westies and a myriad of of other successful swaps ... it's a great engine that puts usable torque right where you can use it, so while it might not be "faster" than the gas engine it replaces it sure is more fun to drive and the power/torque curve is much broader and way more usable

 

[mcneil]

have you read any of the other conversion threads on completed swaps?... of course the tdi has enough power to "drag" the jeep around, and toyotas and porcine syncro westies and a myriad of of other successful swaps ... it's a great engine that puts usable torque right where you can use it, so while it might not be "faster" than the gas engine it replaces it sure is more fun to drive and the power/torque curve is much broader and way more usable

Agreed. Other projects have shown that this motor works in a jeep. I think I'm the first to use an automatic, but this trans has OD and lockup, so it shouldn't make much difference.

The only thing to watch in this thread is whether I can drag my butt back into the garage often enough to get it on the road before another year goes by.

 

[normalicy]

Huh, I guess this is the first time I've seen mention of it. Oddly not on a Jeep forum.

 

[jetmoto3]

I've been watching this post for a long time. Really interested to see if this engine has what it takes to drag the Jeep around. Also interested because I have a TDI Beetle.

Ill just add also i just put one in a quad dakota a 4600lbs truck and the stock tdi pulls it around just fine.

 

[onlyn8v]

Agreed. Other projects have shown that this motor works in a jeep. I think I'm the first to use an automatic, but this trans has OD and lockup, so it shouldn't make much difference.

smokeywagn used a AW4 in his Grand cherokee swap but it took so much power to turn the auto that he went to using the AX15.

AW4: 2.804 1.531 1.00 .753 vs.

AX-15: 3.83, 2.33, 1.44, 1.00, 0.79

 

[Reddok]

I have over 100,000km on my swap now - lots of towing. I've pulled a trailer that weighed 4000lbs with the 4000lb Jeep at 120km/h with no issues. I've been watching this thread for a long time to see if mcneil can pull off the conversion with an auto that is "acceptable". Having full control over the shift points should do the trick I think. Can't wait until it finally hits the road.

 

[normalicy]

Thanks guys for the reassurance. I'm contemplating mating it with a manual, so I guess I may doing OK. Now my next question (if the OP doesn't mind my questions on his post), how's the fuel mileage? I've heard that about 25 is the best to expect.

 

[jimbote]

Thanks guys for the reassurance. I'm contemplating mating it with a manual, so I guess I may doing OK. Now my next question (if the OP doesn't mind my questions on his post), how's the fuel mileage? I've heard that about 25 is the best to expect.

not a jeep but my tacoma x cab 4x4 nets low thirties almost every tank

 

[Reddok]

I average 28mpg with a lifted 4x4 Liberty with off-road tires. Best tank was 31MPG. Worst is 25MPG towing a 3000lb trailer with 4 people and gear.

 

[jimbote]

I average 28mpg with a lifted 4x4 Liberty with off-road tires. Best tank was 31MPG. Worst is 25MPG towing a 3000lb trailer with 4 people and gear.

off road tires can hurt FE quite a bit ...i'm about to go to an all season tire thats one aspect ratio smaller than my current 265 70 17 yokohama all terrains ... the new dunlops are lighter with less aggressive tread and should net even better fuel economy

 

[Reddok]

I did the PP764's and the larger tires at the same time. Lost 3mpg, but gained a ton of power and better looks! Just have to choose the trade offs you are comfortable with. I still can't find a 4x4 SUV in 2015 that gets 28mpg combined so I'm happy with my setup.

 

[jimbote]

I did the PP764's and the larger tires at the same time. Lost 3mpg, but gained a ton of power and better looks! Just have to choose the trade offs you are comfortable with. I still can't find a 4x4 SUV in 2015 that gets 28mpg combined so I'm happy with my setup.

no kidding !.... it'll be awhile before any north american suv/truck catches up to the true real world FE of our swaps

 

[mcneil]

So the ECM is off to Malone for tunes, which means I might be able to get a test-drive done in the next month. I won't have MPG numbers for a while, until I can get some valid tags for it. There's a straight stretch of road behind my house which is enough to get some 0-60 times without a problem.

If anyone wants to try and guess the 0-60 time, the axle gears are 4.11, tires are 245/75R16 Goodyear MTRs, and the ECM will have Malone's stage I tune.

 

[mcneil]

The good news: It runs, like a dream. The Malone tune works great, and I've cleaned up a lot of the wiring.
I bolted down the driver's seat and ran through the revs to feel how well my vibration mount system works. Performance is good, but I think I missed the first natural freq by about 1 Hz. There's some shakes at idle, but they go away by 900 rpm. After that it's as smooth as the jeep motor ever was.
Just zipties for now, but the ECM will mount where the old Jeep computer used to sit.

I also had to pull apart the transmission shift linkage. The end of the arm struck the shift position switch on the t-case, and no amount of rearrangement was getting it to clear. The Novak shift cable kit is still a pretty good fit, the problem here is that I tucked the driveline up so close to the body. I had done a simple 30 deg bend to clear, but it screwed up the shift geometry. So I got it red hot and pulled an S-bend in it, works great now.

Now the only reason I'm not driving it is the transmission. Right now, I have less than 10 psi line pressure and the pressure control switch isn't responding. I dropped the pan and found the pressure control manifold wasn't working. Also, I had put a new filter in it when I put all this together years ago, but I used an Autozone filter. While researching the issue, I found a bunch of threads about bad filters choking off the pump. I pulled out the filter and it looks like the media was getting sucked into inlet. Time to get some genuine GM parts for this.

 

[mcneil]

First drive:

Replacing the pressure control switch and filter fixed the transmission issues. The VSS sensor is still not working, so I'm limited to 1st gear on the trans. But I ran it around the neighborhood and it feels great.
I reused a lot of VW components making the electrical system. The battery box fusebox came in handy on the driver's side to distribute power for the electric fan, glowplugs, ARB air compressor, and anything else I want to add.

Shown here with just fan and glowplugs. By the way, I didn't actually fuse the alternator at 40amps, I just needed to stack those strip fuses until I could order a couple more of the big 110 amp fuses.
Question: Does anyone know if VW made a 7-pin relay base for the glow plug relay that snaps into the square socket like the other two? Because that would be super clean if I could make that work.

 

[TDIsyncro]

Congrats on getting your project going. Massive project encompassing frame and suspension build, cutting edge CAD modeling, engine transplant, transmission adaption, shift controller build, phew...impressive stuff.

Lots of things I like in your build. I think the most recent I noticed was the battery box fuse box. Great idea for power distribution.
How do you like it with the 4L65e? Is it a good match? What do you think about your torque converter selection? If I recall you used a 1950 stall?

I should have the second 4L65e match up on street in two weeks. I was thinking of a 1600 stall for my torque converter..right when boost hits hard but now I am second guessing and wondering about something a but higher. My highway cruise RPM could be around 2000 in the future, so not sure I want to get too close to that.

 

[mcneil]

Congrats on getting your project going. Massive project encompassing frame and suspension build, cutting edge CAD modeling, engine transplant, transmission adaption, shift controller build, phew...impressive stuff.
Lots of things I like in your build. I think the most recent I noticed was the battery box fuse box. Great idea for power distribution.
How do you like it with the 4L65e? Is it a good match? What do you think about your torque converter selection? If I recall you used a 1950 stall?
I should have the second 4L65e match up on street in two weeks. I was thinking of a 1600 stall for my torque converter..right when boost hits hard but now I am second guessing and wondering about something a but higher. My highway cruise RPM could be around 2000 in the future, so not sure I want to get too close to that.

Thanks! I can't really comment on how good of a match it is for drive-ability until I can get the VSS working and make it shift on its own.

For stall, it's a lockup TC, so you can run a higher stall without efficiency problems. The Megashift has programmable lockup points, so I plan to experiment with that.

There's some other neat tricks you can do with a programmable transmission controller. Eventually I want to add a hill descent mode, which locks the torque converter clutch and holds 1st gear. I think the stall is actually going to be higher than advertised, but I won't know until I get the tach wired up.

Getting a 1600 rpm stall might be tough - I'm using the smaller diameter TC for the 4L65e. When I got it out of a Silverado or whatever GM truck, it had the big TC on it (something like 13" diameter). I think the big TC is for a lower stall. I used the custom bellhousing because of the big size mismatch between a GM LS pattern and an ALH. The ALH starter gear is about 10" diameter, the GM is 14.5".

 

[jimbote]

Thanks! I can't really comment on how good of a match it is for drive-ability until I can get the VSS working and make it shift on its own.
For stall, it's a lockup TC, so you can run a higher stall without efficiency problems. The Megashift has programmable lockup points, so I plan to experiment with that.
There's some other neat tricks you can do with a programmable transmission controller. Eventually I want to add a hill descent mode, which locks the torque converter clutch and holds 1st gear. I think the stall is actually going to be higher than advertised, but I won't know until I get the tach wired up.
Getting a 1600 rpm stall might be tough - I'm using the smaller diameter TC for the 4L65e. When I got it out of a Silverado or whatever GM truck, it had the big TC on it (something like 13" diameter). I think the big TC is for a lower stall. I used the custom bellhousing because of the big size mismatch between a GM LS pattern and an ALH. The ALH starter gear is about 10" diameter, the GM is 14.5".

you may be able to have the smaller converter modified for a lower stall... pretty cool idea on the descent mode

 

[TDIsyncro]

Thanks! I can't really comment on how good of a match it is for drive-ability until I can get the VSS working and make it shift on its own.
For stall, it's a lockup TC, so you can run a higher stall without efficiency problems. The Megashift has programmable lockup points, so I plan to experiment with that.
There's some other neat tricks you can do with a programmable transmission controller. Eventually I want to add a hill descent mode, which locks the torque converter clutch and holds 1st gear. I think the stall is actually going to be higher than advertised, but I won't know until I get the tach wired up.
Getting a 1600 rpm stall might be tough - I'm using the smaller diameter TC for the 4L65e. When I got it out of a Silverado or whatever GM truck, it had the big TC on it (something like 13" diameter). I think the big TC is for a lower stall. I used the custom bellhousing because of the big size mismatch between a GM LS pattern and an ALH. The ALH starter gear is about 10" diameter, the GM is 14.5".

I did not realize the megashift had that many options. I was looking at USS a bit more last night and it does have lock-up adjustable in any gear and speed as well.
no worries on the torque converter, I took a gamble and ordered an 1800 units a few days ago.
I also like your idea of lock-up for decent.

 

[mcneil]

The tach works, with a minor scaling problem at 2300 rpm. Need to check my math.

It's a bit complicated so I made a diagram:

All of the EDC15 ECMs talk to the cluster over CAN. CAN ID 640 is where all the action is happening. The protocol appears to be compatible with CAN2.0B, which is what the transceiver in my CAN shield is using.
Once you connect to that bus, you now have access to a ton of data coming off the ECU at 500kbps. So far I've found the throttle position signal, tach, water temp, and what looks like the injection quantity.
In the video, I have the speedometer doing a sweep so I know the code hasn't locked up.

 

[TDIsyncro]

The tach works, with a minor scaling problem at 2300 rpm. Need to check my math.

It's a bit complicated so I made a diagram:

All of the EDC15 ECMs talk to the cluster over CAN. CAN ID 640 is where all the action is happening. The protocol appears to be compatible with CAN2.0B, which is what the transceiver in my CAN shield is using.
Once you connect to that bus, you now have access to a ton of data coming off the ECU at 500kbps. So far I've found the throttle position signal, tach, water temp, and what looks like the injection quantity.
In the video, I have the speedometer doing a sweep so I know the code hasn't locked up.

I am super impressed. I think I will try to copy you!

 

[Wally]

"It's a bit complicated" Fricken Enginerds!

Nice work, dude! I'm surprised a VSS is giving you trouble after all this work!
Sorry for not responding sooner, btw.
So, am I the only one who can't make the videos play?
And...
That battery-top power distribution is genius. Elegant simplicity.
I'll also jump the down-hill lock up like bandwagon. Of course, my friend, Manual, has never let me down

Again, great progress. Congrats!

 

[mcneil]

Thanks Wally! Still haven't made it out to AZ, but sometime. Freaking google, you'd think owning youtube they'd be able to make a video work from picasa and not make me have to go setup another stupid account.

VSS - got it figured out. The 5/8-18 variable reluctance sensor wasn't screwed in far enough. A little tweaking and I got it. Now that I know VSS and RPM, the first "aha!" is that the trans is slipping. Most likely a line pressure cal issue, will sort it out later.

I need to get this VSS signal into the ECM, because the intent is to be able to pass smog with this eventually. To pass smog, the ECM has to publish vehicle speed over OBDII. I'm not going to try sending anything OBDII directly, because if I were a smog inspector I'd just think that fishy as hell and reject anything to do with it. So I need to let the EDC15 do it, which means I have to figure out the VW VSS.

I spun a VSS in a my drill while hooked up to a spare cluster and measured frequency; 96Hz = 63 mph. The VSS signal goes into the cluster, displays on the speedo, then goes out again to the ECM. Like this:

So I took another Arduino and programmed it to flip a digital pin 96 times a second. The cluster took it, and moved the needle to 63 mph. Then I made it sweep the signal, to give me something that was continuously changing. Again, the cluster displayed comfortably. But when I hooked up the Arduino signal generator to the ECM at T121/20, I got noise and fault codes.

18062 - Please check DTC Memory of Instrument Cluster
. P1654 - 35-00 -
17948 - Vehicle Speed Signal
. P1540 - 35-10 - Signal too High - Intermittent

My takeaway is that the cluster performs some conditioning and signal conversion. The cluster sends the ECU a different frequency signal than it recieves. When I connected the cluster output to T121/20, it all works fine. VCDS shows the road speed increasing, which means speed is going out over CAN... somewhere.

Go back to my CAN arduino.. I log all the data while the other arduino sweeps the speedo. 5 minutes of filtering, and I see that CAN ID 904 is responding with a sweep.

Byte 0 and Byte 2 are slightly different. I wonder if one is "calibrated" and the other raw. Either way, now I can get VSS off CAN.

Here's the other bit - the MegaShift GPIO has an option for a PWM signal proportional to speed. I need to build that circuit into the MegaShift, but should be possible. In the end, it will look like this:

 

[mcneil]

Also, I made a thread for the CAN bus work here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=449442