TDI with a 4L65 automatic in a Jeep TJ

[mcneil]

The project:
A 2000 Jeep Wrangler with a TDI running a 4L65e using a stand-alone trans controller.

Much thanks to mtngk for all the engineering help and spare parts.

Here's the mechanicals, assembled.

The GM 4L60/65/70 is the ubiquitous 4spd OD trans used in every GM RWD application from 1997 on. S10s, Caprices, Astrovans, 1500 trucks, you name it. Sure, a jeep with an auto sounds a bit lame, but the 4x4 auto/manual discussion has been hacked out on other forums, and there's pros & cons for each.

The reason I used a 4L65 was:
1. Wanted an auto for torque multiplication in crawling, drivetrain shock absorbtion, and so my wife would drive it.
2. With the removable bellhousing, the adapted trans is shorter than any other stock jeep trans, and jeeps like short drivetrains, and only weighs ~20 lbs more.
3. Programmable stand alone controllers are readily available (and offer options like push-button manual shifting)
4. GM cleaned up all the warts in the 4L60 with the 4L65. There's no way even the most tuned TDI ever will kill this trans; the donor vehicle was a 300 hp 5.7L chevy truck.

So hidden inside the above picture is a custom torque converter, and a somewhat hacked flexplate with a starter gear welded to it. Starter gear is pulled off a VR6 flywheel. Here's a shot of the flexplate test fit onto the torque converter.

The gear was welded on with a rotary welding machine (same shop that built my custom torque converter). There's about .030" of a "pringle" effect as measured with the indicator setup below, but the concentricity was almost dead-on (<.005").

The plan for the project, based on reading a lot of the swaps here, is:
- graft the TDI cluster into the Jeep dash
- use an Optishift stand-alone trans computer to control the 4L65
- eventually, VNT17

More details in process, but this is what I have so far. As far as I know, this will be the world's first ALH/4L65 in a Jeep. Hey - if you can't be great, at least be different.

 

[jimbote]

looks like it will be great!!....I love the idea of an auto (non 01m) behind a TDI ....lots of 4runner autos are just begging for a TDI .... looks like you've sourced a forklift bell housing?....two questions...where? and how much?

 

[jimbote]

also what starter are you using?

 

[mcneil]

The bellhousing is machined from a cast industrial unit, and there's an adapter from the SAE 8 bellhousing to the 4L65. I didn't want to use the stock GM bellhousing since it was wider, longer, and would have hung below the oil pan.

The starter is from another VW application, but I don't know exactly which. Part number is 068 911 024F. Because of my somewhat simplistic flexplate/ring gear arrangement, I have to space the starter back by 10mm. Not a big issue, just need to make a simple lathe part, but I would like to redo the flexplate to use the OEM starter location (hence that one I'm buying from jimbote..).

The mechanical adapters cost me about $700 so far, but that's only because I have access to a full CNC shop at work. The machining of the cast bellhousing is pretty easy, but the SAE 8 to 4L65 adapter takes a good deal of CNC work.

 

[Reddok]

Nice work so far! I'd love to see someone actually pull off an auto in their swap and end up liking it.

I think with a VNT17, tune and injectors it will be an awesome trail rig. A cummins turbo diesel lift pump literally dropped in to my Liberty's tank. I wonder if the Wrangler would be the same?

What are you planning to do for a speedo? My Liberty had a VSS in the rear diff which necessitated leaving the stock ECU in place to run the dash (ECT, fuel, speedo, tach still a work in progress).

 

[mcneil]

Thanks Reddok - I read your Liberty swap thread top to bottom too.
The jeep was a 2000 2.5L 4-cyl with the AX-5 5spd - 120hp/140ft-lbs stock at sea level. Naturally aspirated motors loose about 1/3 their output for every 10k feet in altitude, and I mainly used my jeep to get to camping spots up high. So climbing around the Sierras that 2.5L is making about 80hp/93 ft-lbs. Even a stock TDI does better than that. And yes, the VNT17 is going to be sweet - more power and torque than a 4.0L and a few hundred pounds lighter.

My plan for the speedo was to adapt a VW VSS onto the jeep housing.

The part on the left is the jeep speedo gear housing, the part on the right is the actual sensor.

VW VSS

Both the jeep VSS and the VW VSS use a square drive input. I figure, all I need to do is make up a little adapter to fit the VW VSS into the Jeep speedo gear housing.

I still haven't decided if I'm going to keep my NP231 or shell out the money for a NV241OR, with the 4:1 low range. Either way, the adapter should be a small plastic lathe part with a threaded boss, housing a square drive coupling.

 

[greengeeker]

Don't know if it helps but as you can see in the picture you posted the VW vss has a snap fit between the hex portion and the upper portion. This is where hex drive actually interfaces with the sensor. Maybe you can dissassemble the Jeep VSS and mimic the snap fit? Anyway, just throwing that out there.

 

[jimbote]

Don't know if it helps but as you can see in the picture you posted the VW vss has a snap fit between the hex portion and the upper portion. This is where hex drive actually interfaces with the sensor. Maybe you can dissassemble the Jeep VSS and mimic the snap fit? Anyway, just throwing that out there.

once you snap that apart you've exposed the little magnetic relucter wheel....still may be doable somehow but why not just use the jeep vss?....maybe it has the same pulses per revolution?

 

[piper106]

"The bellhousing is machined from a cast industrial unit..."
Any more details on what forktruck, gen set, marine drive, etc. that bell housing came from?? VW part or third party?? Or is it's identity super top secret, you know, if you tell us you have to kill us afterward?? I have a VW SAE bell in my garage and it doesn't look anything like that. The boss wants an auto trans on my project also, and I too like the idea of running a GM 4L60E trans.

Piper106

 

[N2TOH]

TDI into Jeep Swappers links

Rather then cross posting to death I started my own thread to help folks interested in swapping a TDI into Jeeps, the thing that might be of most interest is the CAN bus converter box for mule service to drive the factory gauge cluster!

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350699

 

[mcneil]

Marshall Industrial makes the bellhousing, so I had to order it from the UK. Great company, lots of good products.

http://www.mi-uk.com/products/accessories/flywheel-housing/

I'd like to see a picture of the VW SAE bellhousing piper106 found.

I've been talking with some shops about making the adapter parts. If anyone is seriously interested, PM me.

I haven't made much progress on this in the last month. I had been on paternity leave after the birth of our first, but have to go back to work now. Paternity leave was a great chance to get a little work done on the project, especially at 2am.

 

[mcneil]

Slight change of approach - I decided to go with the 4:1 241OR transfer case. Saturday I pick up one from a 2007 JK Wrangler.

Also, for anyone who ever had any questions about VSS/Speedo signals, I recommend reading this:
http://www.jagsthatrun.com/V8-chapters/V8-tpi-Speed-Sensors.pdf

The interesting thing about this JK 241OR case is that there is no VSS in it, anywhere. The JK VSS is mounted on the output shaft of the transmission. There's a 5-position gear selection switch on the t-case that tells the ECM what multiplier to apply to the VSS signal to get the vehicle speed (1:1 Hi-range, 4:1 Low-range).

In my case, the Novak adapter I have to use to mate the 4L65 to the 241OR has a GM VSS to give output speed information to the 4L65 TCM. This signal can be converted to the VW format using the Dakota Digtial SGI-5 (which at $85 is pretty sweet)

 

[onlyn8v]

Why not mount a toner ring to the rear driveshaft flange?

 

[mcneil]

The Novak kit includes a 40 pulse tone ring on the transmission output. This signal goes into the TCM.

I thought I'd have to use the Dakota Digital, but I found that both the Optishift and TCM-2000 controllers can output a square wave speedo signal of any format. Additionally, the TCM-2000 can add a multiplier, for when the t-case is in low range.

So basically.. just hook up the TCM, and tell it to give the VW ECU the right freq square wave.

 

[N2TOH]

The Novak kit includes a 40 pulse tone ring on the transmission output. This signal goes into the TCM.

I thought I'd have to use the Dakota Digital, but I found that both the Optishift and TCM-2000 controllers can output a square wave speedo signal of any format. Additionally, the TCM-2000 can add a multiplier, for when the t-case is in low range.

So basically.. just hook up the TCM, and tell it to give the VW ECU the right freq square wave.

Along that note who here is willing to share the info, in the form of waveform charts?
For the folks who need to do signal conditioning.

(My not so secret wish is for a TDI swap that looks so refined it will fool a Jeep service tech.)

 

[mcneil]

Along that note who here is willing to share the info, in the form of waveform charts?
For the folks who need to do signal conditioning.

(My not so secret wish is for a TDI swap that looks so refined it will fool a Jeep service tech.)

If anyone has a spare VW speed sensor, I'll put it on the oscilloscope at work and post the results.

I have one VW VSS, but I kind of need it to get to work
.

 

[algirdas]

Emailed u with spares pic, to mechromancer

My brother has a 97TJ. We're planning a TDI swap.
Would like to use a BHW and are keeping the 5spd but
want to do a really clean OEM+ install.

 

[Rockwell]

Im interested to see how the auto turns out, I tried an auto in the toyota pickup I put a 1.6TD into but wasnt satisfied with it. This is a whole different animal though, hoping it works well.

I like the factory look too, never understood the use of colored vacuum lines and brightly painted engine parts.

 

[mcneil]

First cut at measuring algirdas's sensors - inconclusive. At 262 rpm, the Mk4 VSS was generating 6mV pulses at 70Hz, or 16 times per rev. 6mV seems way too low. I'm going to try again with a different scope setup and see if I can figure it out.

 

[mcneil]

The big step, pulling the engine out of the Jeep.
Engine pulling over the winter shutdown at work:
Pros - plenty of time, no interruptions other than breaks to play with the baby
Cons - all your friends are out of town. Must pull engine solo

But with enough chain, straps, and a come-along, I got it out without breaking anything on either the jeep or myself.

Couple shots of the engine bay for reference:

Top

Tunnel

Bellhousing mocked up in relative position. It's not going to be tucked up against the body that tightly, but all of the engine will be above the frame rails. I'm aiming for a smooth of a underbelly as I can.


Also got the 4L65 mated up to the NP241OR. FYI: that is one large t-case. Body clearance is going to be tight.

Here it is hanging on the scale for weigh-in.

The nice thing about the NP241OR, besides the 4:1 low range, is that it has conventional output yokes, so no slip yoke eliminator needed. I actually picked this thing up off craigslist for about the cost of a SYE kit.

Compare to the stock drivetrain


Here's the planned location. The faceted part in the CAD model is a crude 3D scan I did using Autodesk's 123DCatch program. It uses feature recognition of photographs to generate a surface model from a series of pictures. The main downside is that it surface mesh it generates doesn't play nice with Solidworks, so you have to reduce the quality to make it happy. However, it is good enough to show me where I might have clearance issues. Mainly I was concerned about the wastegate acutator against the frame, and the AC compressor smacking the front axle on full compression. But it looks ok.

It looked reasonable, so I ordered some bushings I can make into a focused CG mounting system, and moved onto the wiring.

At one point, I had a brilliant idea that I might be able to take data from the TDI system and convert it to the Chrysler message format that the Jeep instrument cluster reads. I found a set of schematics from someone who had done something similar (http://www.kolumbus.fi/juha.niinikoski/CCD_bus/ccd_display.htm), but it was beyond my abilities.

Back to my original plan to graft the cluster into the Jeep dash, like some have done successfully on Vanagon swaps.

My garage is full of the assorted harnesses that I've collected. I've got:
1. MY2001 ALH harness, with plugs to plenum chamber connectors cut
2. MY2001 ALH battery power distribution, all intact.
3. MY2000 (Feb-1999 production) body harness from a european AHF, with relay panel, plenum chamber connectors (T10,etc), and instrument cluster connectors.

I'm working off spreadsheets, and going to wiring everything as if it were a 2001 Jetta (since that's the convenient example sitting in my driveway as my daily driver). Here's the main challenge - fixing the cut connectors off the 2001 harness that went to the body harness:

I have the two connectors off the ECM checked out, but still a lot of work to do.

The question of the moment is what to do for the radiator fan(s). My options here are:
1. Adapt the VW fans to fit the jeep radiator, and drive from fan control module. Add a switch to the temp sensor power line so I can shut the fans off for water crossings.
2. Use any one of the other fans that fit a jeep radiator, add a thermostat, relay, and switch, just as if I was retrofitting the 2.5L with electric fans.

 

[mcneil]

Original plan was to space the starter out to adjust for my slightly odd ring gear location. Decided to space the whole flexplate out from the crank instead.

The spacer needed to be .460" thick, and I needed to keep the flexplate concentric to the crank. Spacer is in blue in the CAD layout.

Over a couple evenings this week, I got onto one of the lathes at work. It was the crummy one but all the fits still came out great. The spacer is steel, not aluminum, too.

With the ring gear/flexplate:

 

[jimbote]

that looks very nice ....I'm amazed at how versed some of you guys are with the cad programs...I'm old school tape measure and cut

 

[mcneil]

How's the saying go now? "Measure twice, spend hours modeling all the parts, cut once"

 

[Jet 02]

Spacer

Thanks for the photo of your flex plate spacer.
I get to build one also as the nose on the ZF4hp22eh torque converter will not fit into the VW crank. The flex plate you made almost looks like a 1.8t flex plate.
I am concerned about the "pringle" effect, you mention, when I have the center of the VW flex plate welded into the ZF flex plate.
I have two different flex plates one is 2mm thick and the 1.8t is 2.5mm thick. I will probably use the thicker one.
Regards
Tom

 

[mcneil]

Thanks for the photo of your flex plate spacer.
I get to build one also as the nose on the ZF4hp22eh torque converter will not fit into the VW crank. The flex plate you made almost looks like a 1.8t flex plate.
I am concerned about the "pringle" effect, you mention, when I have the center of the VW flex plate welded into the ZF flex plate.
I have two different flex plates one is 2mm thick and the 1.8t is 2.5mm thick. I will probably use the thicker one.
Regards
Tom

Don't thank me yet, it may not fit. The bolt heads are a tight clearance to the TC, I'm going to replace mine with panheads.

 

[mcneil]

The flexplate spacer fit up well, at least on the diameters. I think there's too little clearance around the heads, so I'm getting some different fasteners. But overall, I was pleased to see everything fit together snugly with a good pilot.

And for the first time ever, I present to you a AHF/4L65/NP241OR drivetrain.

Too shiny. Need to get it dirty.

Plenty of clearance around the back of the head, though I may rearrange the heater outlet once I see how much space the jeep firewall offers.

Ran into a problem with the starter fit with the oil drain - it doesn't. The starter will clear the turbo support bracket, but the braid of the drain line gets pushed right onto the positive terminal.

Thinking about getting the oil drain line with the flared fitting instead of the banjo. Does anyone know if this will work on this AHF motor?:
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=779&osCsid=7s33h02t45vo4a92a0eeqhg121

 

[Jet 02]

Flex plate bolts

I do not think grade 8.8 bolts would hold up on flex plate to crank application.
VW-Audi make many “factory” flywheel/flex plate bolts. These are grade 12.9 bolts
M10 X 1.0 X— 10mm dia, 1.0mm pitch. Various lengths and types of heads
N904 656 01 17mm long hex head
N905 389 01 19mm long cheese head
N906 650 01 22.5mm long poly socket head
N906 652 01 23.5mm long socket head
N906 651 01 29mm long socket head
N909 756 01 32mm long poly socket head
N907 356 01 43mm long socket head

I belive these are good part numbers, check first.
Regards
Jet 02

 

[Jet 02]

Flex plate bolt

N909 294 01 is 27 mm long and might just work best. Make sure it does not go past the 17mm depth of the crank.
They cost arround $3.50 each.

 

[mcneil]

Thanks for the part numbers!
I had struck out on McMaster & Fastenall for the right bolt. At 20 mm, those 8.8s are too short (but what I had around).

It's 13.4mm from the flexplate face to the face of the crank. I'll start with those 27mm bolts and see how the head clears.

 

[greengeeker]

Ran into a problem with the starter fit with the oil drain - it doesn't. The starter will clear the turbo support bracket, but the braid of the drain line gets pushed right onto the positive terminal.

Thinking about getting the oil drain line with the flared fitting instead of the banjo. Does anyone know if this will work on this AHF motor?:
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=779&osCsid=7s33h02t45vo4a92a0eeqhg121

Looks like it should work just fine. You will also have to buy the other fitting that goes into the block: http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1046

If you are worried about the water neck you can always throw an automatic coolant flange: http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1127

Here is how it looks on an ALH: