TDI vs stock VR6

[TDIwestfalia]

Would it be possible for a MKIII jetta TDI that is heavily modded to keep up with or beat a stock MKIII jetta VR6? A friend and I are having a little debate and I'm curious. Thanks

 

[AThreeTdi]

My last trip to the 1/4 mile track I ran 16.3 and next spring hopefully it will make it into the high 15's.. My answer would be yes you could definetly make a stock MkIII VR6 driver scatch his head and wonder what happened...

 

[cowboyjack]

Sure, why not?

What are the stock hp and torque numbers on a VR6?

A number of folks on this board have MKIII AHUs with torque numbers above 250 ft/lbs. A VR6 might have more hp than a TDI, but torque?

Seems to me a good driver with 250 plus ft/lbs of torque should be able to beat any comparable car with lesser numbers?

 

[TDIwestfalia]

172hp/175ft-lbs are the VR6 numbers. Thanks for the responses.

 

[TDIwestfalia]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1afyXHL-Va0

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

The VR6 driver in that video sandbagged after the first 500 feet. He may have caught up had he not wussed out. The 172hp and 173 lb/ft are crank numbers. I've seen stock 12V dynos reflect around 140 whp and 145 lb/ft. My A3 TDI dyno'd at 136 whp and 263 lb/ft. The hp numbers are close; and I have a weight advantage.

A magazine test shows the 1995 Volkswagen Jetta GLX does the 0-60 in 7.7 secs and the quarter-mile in 16.1 secs at 88 mph. My last quarter mile was 16.3 secs at 83 mph. That was when I was at 122 whp. I MAY have a 15.9 and perhaps 84-85 mph in the car now.

In the end, the VR6 will get to 100 mph first. But my TDI has more snap on the road and WAY better handling and economy.

Scott

 

[mopower]

Usually you can mod any car to be pretty quick, comparing that to a stock car isn't really fair.

It can be done and it has been done.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Would it be possible for a MKIII jetta TDI that is heavily modded to keep up with or beat a stock MKIII jetta VR6? A friend and I are having a little debate and I'm curious. Thanks

Would a Clydesdale be able to keep up with an Arabian? Can a Husky keep up with a Greyhound?
Torque is fine, until it runs out. Simply overlay the two engine's HP and torque curves and you'll see that even a huge number at some narrow rpm range is not a match for a lower number over a much wider range.
It's the area under the curve that will indicate the better at this specific challenge. I'd always bet on the stock VR6 over the TDI (well, maybe not the V10).

 

[oilhammer]

Mine did. Not by much, but it did. I had a '98 Jetta TDI, and my sister's '96 Jetta GLX. Biggest problem the TDI has is its timid squishy suspension that cannot handle the magnificent torque of the modded AHU.

It takes some skilled driving, and second gear starts in the TDI (first gear is useless when you have over 200 tq under your right foot).

We used a G-analyst, which is a small device that rides along in the car. You input the weight of the car, etc. The VR6 A3 is a little bit heavier than the TDI, but not much. And considering is has bigger brakes, ABS, bigger wheels, heavier springs, sway bars, etc. the engines must not weight THAT much different. I think it had about a 230 lb. weight penalty on the TDI. It also had traction control which inhibits some full-out standing start launches, but the big 50 series tires help to get a grip.

Up to 80 the TDI stayed ahead of the VR6, then it kinda balanced out, and I suspect at about 120 the VR6 would start to pull ahead but it is speed limited at 130 so who cares? Most of the TDI's strength was in the 0 to 60, then from 70 to 100 they are about dead equal.

I may be able to dig up the graphs we made of the runs. We also ran a modded ALH Golf, and a 2004 R32...which gladly handed everyone else the heave-ho. But its weight is a staggering penalty, being AWD. However its 0 to 60 times are awesome because there is virtually no wheelspin.

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

Torque is fine, until it runs out. Simply overlay the two engine's HP and torque curves and you'll see that even a huge number at some narrow rpm range is not a match for a lower number over a much wider range. It's the area under the curve that will indicate the better at this specific challenge. I'd always bet on the stock VR6 over the TDI (well, maybe not the V10).

Here's mine compared to an old stock 12V dyno I found on VWVortex years ago:

The VR6 definitely wins in this scenario! The VR6 is coming to life right as my TDI is running out of breath. I can take a VR6 in a quick sprint. But the party's over after more than a quick sprint.

Scott

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, and that is where knowing how to drive helps out. That's why my A3 TDI easily jumped two carlengths ahead of the VR6 in the first 150 feet. A gap that could barely be maintained for a little bit. I'll admit that because I have seen far too many VR6s with rod-thrown holes in the block I was never willing to take my sister's car beyond redline, but it does pull very hard and very cleanly after 4000 RPM right up to 6300. Territory the AHU just cannot reach. Shifting the TDI at 3800 RPMs seemed to make the best use of the engine's output, but meant more shifting to get to 100, even with 2nd gear starts. The VR6 can do triple digits in 3rd gear thanks to the lofty [for a 6 cyl Volkswagen] 6300 RPM redline.

You want a real treat? Try racing a VR6 up a mountain pass! TDI wins hands down every time! Even with a trailer in tow, the mighty TDI's torque and turbo-supplied atmosphere give it an extreme advantage and downshifting is not necessary.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Even with a trailer in tow, the mighty TDI's torque and turbo-supplied atmosphere give it an extreme advantage and downshifting is not necessary.

So that's why the Budweiser wagon isn't pulled by Arabians...
And the VR6 could be left in second so no downshifting is necessary there either.
Cripes! It's starting to sound like I actually like those lumps!

 

[oilhammer]

So that's why the Budweiser wagon isn't pulled by Arabians...
And the VR6 could be left in second so no downshifting is necessary there either.
Cripes! It's starting to sound like I actually like those lumps!

I think if you drove a VR6 in second gear up a mountain pass you would either need a new engine by the other side or you'd have simply run out of gas!

 

[Lug_Nut]

And hearing aids....

 

[Bob_Fout]

What Did You Say? I Can't Hear From The 6000 Rpm 2.8l Vr6 In Front Of Me.

/EDIT: That bites I had it in all caps....

 

[TDIwestfalia]

Thanks for all of the great responses.