TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

[Lightflyer1]

Man did you buy the wrong car for that kind of driving. You get almost none of the benefits of owning a diesel much less from a tune. You won't see less wear from changing the oil earlier. You have to find out why the extra metal is being produced. You are using a proper oil so that isn't the issue. It is made for 10k changes+. I would venture to say it is your short trips that may be causing the excess wear metals. That is really hard on any engine. Being under 100k isn't it either. When it was new that may have been a factor for the first change or two, but not now.

 

[Figit090]

Man did you buy the wrong car for that kind of driving. You get almost none of the benefits of owning a diesel much less from a tune. You won't see less wear from changing the oil earlier. You have to find out why the extra metal is being produced. You are using a proper oil so that isn't the issue. It is made for 10k changes+. I would venture to say it is your short trips that may be causing the excess wear metals. That is really hard on any engine. Being under 100k isn't it either. When it was new that may have been a factor for the first change or two, but not now.

Oh I'm pretty aware it's not what the car good for, thanks. Job change necessitated it after I bought the car, so it just kinda happened, nothing reasonable I can do about it....unless I do a frost heater. I still enjoy the car and it gets almost 40mpg, so it's still beneficial. Long trips happen too, so it's not without benefits.

Would that frost heater help me much in 40 degree weather?


p.s. I didn't tune the car, PO did. Thank you for your help!

 

[turbobrick240]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Take another sample in 30-40k and see what it looks like.

 

[JELLOWSUBMARINE]

Im kind of in the same boat (and same area/central valley). My previous TDI (non DPF B5.5) was used twice a week for 50 mile runs, 225k and still ran like new. Never had a DPF before. I love the car and since VW was one of the only wagons left and was a great deal...

I bought the TDI over the gas mainly for mileage and that VW gassers required premium until 2016. The JSW TDI is a second vehicle to keep the miles down to 10k on another long term vehicle. Problem is I don't make the 2xs 50mile trip weekly any more.

I to am concerned about warm up. I want to block the radiator, I think it would be greatly beneficial even at 40*-50*. A block heater would also be nice.

Ill be sending in an oil sample in 5k also.

 

[Lightflyer1]

There was another thread on this about warm up. It was posted and goes along with my findings that the newer cars will warm up in about 10 to 15 minutes of driving. I doubt blocking the radiator will help and maybe not even the Frost heater. Constant short trips and restarts and stops are just hard on the engine and other parts (battery, starter, dpf, emissions). A preoiler would more than likely be a good thing for someone doing this kind of driving. But I haven't seen any of these advertised for quite some time. This device would pump the oil up before starting so it had oil pressure prior to starting the engine. Of course we have much better oils now than the 30 or so years ago I last saw these.

 

[James & Son]

I think a Frost heater will help if you leave for work the same time each day. It warms the head and and oil cooler/heater, thus providing instant start and better immediate oil circulation. This will reduce fuel in the oil and on the cylinder walls improving your iron and bearing wear. Your warm up time should decrease especially if you still have a functional egr.

The brand "Frost heater" needs a timer since the internal thermostat is set to 160 or 170 F and it will run continuous at 32 F and below outside temp. Above 32 it will cycle but a timer is more than worthwhile.

wjdell, tested a pan heater in Florida and he proved it reduces iron wear on a PD( 2006 BRM).

 

[Lightflyer1]

That would be good for the first run of the morning only. If you are stopping after that and the engine cools off, no benefit after that first one. If you are only doing two trips a day you get the benefit 50% of the time. If you are doing multiple short trips a day and letting it cool each time then it may not provide much benefit.

 

[CleverUserName]

ooo boy ok. Thank you! Please note that I do lots of short 5 mile cold runs, to and from work, 5 days a week. during months I don't travel much 90% of my running is done under temp... I just thought about that.

I have been using Pentosin HP-2 since I bought the car, perhaps I can go down to 7k change intervals rather than 10k? I bought 3 containers of the stuff because it was on sale

I read it's difficult to say what's causing iron wear? I'm hoping the extra iron is because my engine is still under 100k miles but I don't know enough.

I will do what I can to see if I can get better MPG, my tune is known for being bad on fuel, my timing is too advanced (fixing soon) and I never got the car aligned so it could be those three things I hope..
If Blackstone doesn't give the data points I should have, what would you recommend for a lab?

Maybe a frost heater would help reduce wear? outside temps are 35-45 degrees F most colder days.

Driving 5 miles twice a day is bad for any car, especially a Turbo diesel.

You should buy an old beater like a $2500 Nissan sentra or other reliable POS to drive to work in.

Iron wear comes from the cylinder walls and valvetrain and it tracks with mileage unless your short tripping the car which is considered severe service and/or abuse.

Excessive iron can also be caused by high soot, soot is abrasive and gets more so as it concentrates in the oil. That is why soot is a good data point as it shows how efficient the combustion process is in your engine. High soot can point to other issues like plugged injectors or intake manifold or even poor quality fuel. My old Jetta had higher soot because the previous owner used B20 blends and the fuel did not burn as clean as CARB Diesel #2. That car had 60+ ppm iron at only 6k miles because of the extra soot.

I use Oil Analyzers for testing. Amsoil sells them. You can buy their UPS prepaid kits for $25 if you know a dealer or have a PC membership. It includes Soot %, TBN, and Fuel %. Buy 4 kits and get free shipping.

Changing the oil early wont change anything if you are going to continue using the car for short trips. I'd probably use a 10w30 in your situation because it's thinner at 40F and will warm up faster than a 5w40.

Because of the missing data points we have to assume that the extra iron wear is from the short tripping and not because of another factor like soot.

A frostheater is not the solution. Get a beater to drive to work in and save the Wagon for weekends. Or get a bike.

 

[James & Son]

Everyone has made good points. If the short trip fuel dilution is likely the problem, then what is a good practical solution along with an electric bicycle.

Since oil dulution causes increased TBN loss, I suggest Mobile Turbo diesel Oil and change once a year if you can get a 2 hour run in every couple months for example or something equal( couple one hour), that will help get it to the 1 year interval.

Go with Oil Analysers as CleverUserName suggests.

 

[Figit090]

Driving 5 miles twice a day is bad for any car, especially a Turbo diesel.
You should buy an old beater like a $2500 Nissan sentra or other reliable POS to drive to work in.
Iron wear comes from the cylinder walls and valvetrain and it tracks with mileage unless your short tripping the car which is considered severe service and/or abuse.
Excessive iron can also be caused by high soot, soot is abrasive and gets more so as it concentrates in the oil. That is why soot is a good data point as it shows how efficient the combustion process is in your engine. High soot can point to other issues like plugged injectors or intake manifold or even poor quality fuel. My old Jetta had higher soot because the previous owner used B20 blends and the fuel did not burn as clean as CARB Diesel #2. That car had 60+ ppm iron at only 6k miles because of the extra soot.
I use Oil Analyzers for testing. Amsoil sells them. You can buy their UPS prepaid kits for $25 if you know a dealer or have a PC membership. It includes Soot %, TBN, and Fuel %. Buy 4 kits and get free shipping.
Changing the oil early wont change anything if you are going to continue using the car for short trips. I'd probably use a 10w30 in your situation because it's thinner at 40F and will warm up faster than a 5w40.
Because of the missing data points we have to assume that the extra iron wear is from the short tripping and not because of another factor like soot.
A frostheater is not the solution. Get a beater to drive to work in and save the Wagon for weekends. Or get a bike.

I misspoke on the "frost heater," I don't want the coolant warmer, I meant the oil pan heating pads. That would be some help, right? Maybe the oil would be thinner to help with startup... let me know what you think.


Woah $2500 plus extra insurance and maintenance costs doesn't seem to equate well against possible mechanical issues caused by short trips. I'd rather put that towards the TDI and just treat it better.
In either case, it's a short term thing now, and I'll consider the bike next summer. I won't be changing/buying any cars.

Thanks for your input on causes and testing, I'll look at the Oil Analyzers tests and also see if I can get anything besides b20 where I live. Doubtful, but I can look.

Everyone has made good points. If the short trip fuel dilution is likely the problem, then what is a good practical solution along with an electric bicycle.

Since oil dulution causes increased TBN loss, I suggest Mobile Turbo diesel Oil and change once a year if you can get a 2 hour run in every couple months for example or something equal( couple one hour), that will help get it to the 1 year interval.

Go with Oil Analysers as CleverUserName suggests.

Sounds good, I do run the car on longer journeys whenever I can, generally 30-50 minutes is the longer journey unless it's vacation time. Thanks for your input. I don't mind shorter changes though.

 

[CleverUserName]

I misspoke on the "frost heater," I don't want the coolant warmer, I meant the oil pan heating pads. That would be some help, right? Maybe the oil would be thinner to help with startup... let me know what you think.


Woah $2500 plus extra insurance and maintenance costs doesn't seem to equate well against possible mechanical issues caused by short trips. I'd rather put that towards the TDI and just treat it better.
In either case, it's a short term thing now, and I'll consider the bike next summer. I won't be changing/buying any cars.

Thanks for your input on causes and testing, I'll look at the Oil Analyzers tests and also see if I can get anything besides b20 where I live. Doubtful, but I can look.




Sounds good, I do run the car on longer journeys whenever I can, generally 30-50 minutes is the longer journey unless it's vacation time. Thanks for your input. I don't mind shorter changes though.

If B20 is all that you can find in your neck of the woods, then a fuel additive can be used to increase combustion efficiency and reduce soot. We’ve spoken in PM about fuel additives before, you have that as reference. You can also try the synthetic Diesel engine oils which handle soot better.

I’m sure the oil pan warmer will help. You can try it, but I suggest you get a programmable timer does it comes on a couple hours before you start up the car. Running that heater 24/7 will cost more in electricity per month than insurance on a 2nd vehicle.

 

[Figit090]

There was another thread on this about warm up. It was posted and goes along with my findings that the newer cars will warm up in about 10 to 15 minutes of driving. I doubt blocking the radiator will help and maybe not even the Frost heater. Constant short trips and restarts and stops are just hard on the engine and other parts (battery, starter, dpf, emissions). A preoiler would more than likely be a good thing for someone doing this kind of driving. But I haven't seen any of these advertised for quite some time. This device would pump the oil up before starting so it had oil pressure prior to starting the engine. Of course we have much better oils now than the 30 or so years ago I last saw these.

Preoiler was something I thought about back when I first bought the car and considered a pan heater, but someone said even the pan heater was overkill. They probably didn't realize how often and short my trips were.

I think a Frost heater will help if you leave for work the same time each day. It warms the head and and oil cooler/heater, thus providing instant start and better immediate oil circulation. This will reduce fuel in the oil and on the cylinder walls improving your iron and bearing wear. Your warm up time should decrease especially if you still have a functional egr.

The brand "Frost heater" needs a timer since the internal thermostat is set to 160 or 170 F and it will run continuous at 32 F and below outside temp. Above 32 it will cycle but a timer is more than worthwhile.

wjdell, tested a pan heater in Florida and he proved it reduces iron wear on a PD( 2006 BRM).

Forgot to thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate it.

If B20 is all that you can find in your neck of the woods, then a fuel additive can be used to increase combustion efficiency and reduce soot. We’ve spoken in PM about fuel additives before, you have that as reference. You can also try the synthetic Diesel engine oils which handle soot better.
I’m sure the oil pan warmer will help. You can try it, but I suggest you get a programmable timer does it comes on a couple hours before you start up the car. Running that heater 24/7 will cost more in electricity per month than insurance on a 2nd vehicle.

Ah yes I remember that discussion about your tests, thank you! I'm finishing up a bottle of additive (opti-lube summer, hopefully that's ok to keep using when it's winter) and I was going to look for something else and reference your suggestions. I'll take a look at any tests I can find to see if I can do better than Pentosin HPII and get an analysis with soot and fuel measurements..

I will definitely think about the pan warmer, I have an aluminum skidplate to install so both can go in at the same time, and I'll be sure to get a timer and make sure the circuit is grounded and using AFCI.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Lightflyer1]

Are your short trips just to and from work or multiple short trips in one day with a cool off period in between each one? Give a better description of the driving patterns you do.

 

[Figit090]

Are your short trips just to and from work or multiple short trips in one day with a cool off period in between each one? Give a better description of the driving patterns you do.

Work is just one drive to work at 6:30 am and another to my home at 3:30 pm. Nothing between.

Weekends get errand trips, 25min into town and 25min back with shopping stops.




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[Vpstang]

I got my oil report back. Pretty good for 9500miles.


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[tikal]

Vpstang, thanks for sharing your UOA. For a TDI that has almost 135K miles the iron rate seems somewhat high at 5 ppm/1000 miles. I wonder why. It should be more around 2 ppm/1000 miles.

 

[Vpstang]

Im not sure. That oil interval saw some hi temperatures, some decent lunch time idle and a couple weekend trios home (2500mile trips)
The drives home were usually +10-15mph over at 16hrs at a time could contribute to it.
Ill have to keep an eye on that, thanks for the heads up


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[turbobrick240]

Looks like a fairly typical commonrail tdi UOA to me. The commonrails tend to shed a touch more wear metals than previous tdi's. Nothing to worry about, imo. I did notice the oil viscosity looked a bit thinner than I prefer. You might want to try switching up oil brands and see what happens. Mobil makes a pretty solid 507 formulation.

 

[tikal]

Reference of wear metals for a PD engine

I am aware that PD engines are 'hard on the oil' and high iron ppm rates are not unusual but not CR engines.

For what is worth here is a table I put together with the results of my own UOA for the 2004 Passat (PD engine) which has one of the more aggressive cams among the PD types (BHW engine):

2004_Passat_TDI_UOA

 

[JELLOWSUBMARINE]

I am aware that PD engines are 'hard on the oil' and high iron ppm rates are not unusual but not CR engines.
For what is worth here is a table I put together with the results of my own UOA for the 2004 Passat (PD engine) which has one of the more aggressive cams among the PD types (BHW engine):
2004_Passat_TDI_UOA

It appears the liquimoly additive has least metals. What are your thoughts on it? I will soon do my 1st test on a 20k mile Subaru running 0w 20 (factory weight syn.). I plan to run liqimoly next, even if I run 5w 30.

 

[Fasteddie10]

What oil was used?

I got my oil report back. Pretty good for 9500miles.


What oil was used in this UOA?

 

[turbobrick240]

The oil from the first sample looks to have a more advanced additive package. Based mostly on the boron content.

 

[Vpstang]

I am aware that PD engines are 'hard on the oil' and high iron ppm rates are not unusual but not CR engines.

For what is worth here is a table I put together with the results of my own UOA for the 2004 Passat (PD engine) which has one of the more aggressive cams among the PD types (BHW engine):

2004_Passat_TDI_UOA

Thank you for the data. Since I just changed my oil, think Ill buy some archoik 9100 and add, see how that will change my next UOA. At the moment im about 20k a year, so wont really know till summer time for my next change


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[Vpstang]

I got my oil report back. Pretty good for 9500miles.





What oil was used in this UOA?

Both UOA results were Motul 8100+ excess 5w30 oil


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[CleverUserName]

Thank you for the data. Since I just changed my oil, think Ill buy some archoik 9100 and add, see how that will change my next UOA. At the moment im about 20k a year, so wont really know till summer time for my next change


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The low wear was likely from the oil. Biosyn is a unique product that has special properties. It has given me the lowest iron wear in a couple of vehicles.

Save your money on the additive and get some Biosyn Xtra SHP for your next oil change. I buy it from Zoro.

 

[tikal]

VW 507 specs are very stringent

Just want to clarify that the reason I posted my summary of UOA on post # 3594 is more intended to show what I would consider typical average iron wear metals in a Pumpe-Düse (PD) engine of 2.67 ppm/1000 miles (from four UOAs). In this light if we agree that the CR is, on the average, more benign on the oil, then surely with the stout VW 507 specs (Motul 507 has an HTHS viscosity at 150°C of 3.6 link) the iron wear numbers (and other metals) have to be (on the average) in the range of 2 to 3 ppm/1000 miles. Having said that there might be details of Vpstang vehicle and driving conditions that I am not aware that might impact the UOA results above.

Conclusion (my opinion of course): VW 507 specs are very stringent in my research (reference Lubrizol Relative Performance Tool and other sites) and any kind of oil additive should be considered optional, specially in a common rail engine. I suggest looking up more CR UOAs and come up with your own average iron wear rates (and for other metals) and go from there (plus do more UOAs of course).

 

[turbobrick240]

Vpstang's wear numbers are right in line with Blackstones universal averages obtained from a large database of commonrail tdi's. The average mileage on samples in that database is roughly 8500 miles, iirc. Nothing particularly noteworthy that I see other than the oil shearing slightly out of the viscosity spec.

 

[tikal]

Get the right oil (VW 507 spec)!

Both UOA results were Motul 8100+ excess 5w30 oil


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Oops, I just noticed that Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-30 does not have VW 507 certification/approval . See reference here. Next oil change opportunity, Vpstang, please use a VW 507 spec and then do an UOA at around 10K miles. Check TDIClub sponsors such as IDParts. They got the right stuff for your CR TDI!

 

[turbobrick240]

He may have meant the Motul 8100 5w30 X-Clean+, which is 507 rated.

 

[Vpstang]

Yes, im sorry I used a VW5.07 oil

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