TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

hutchman

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Ouch! Latest BRM UOA

Our BRM Jetta recently turned 100K miles. Latest UOA is here http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2720423&postcount=132

Iron went crazy for a 10K OCI. Last OCI was Elf and Total is supposed to be the same but the numbers from the UOA don't reflect as good of numbers as the Elf fill.

It has Mobile 1 TDT in it now (should have switched over long time ago)!

During the oil change I did a quick inspection of the cam and didn't see anything too scary. Will monitor closer and make another closer inspection of the cam when I get more time.
 

TooSlick

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Hutchman,

Considering the bypass filter and the resultant 5.5-6.0 total sump capacity, those are very high iron levels. It will be interesting to see if you can arrest/reverse this trend by going to the thicker, API/CJ-4 spec oil.

To put things in perspective, if you dissolved a small paperclip in five quarts of oil, your iron level would be ~ 100 ppm, or one part in 10,000. So while this analysis looks ugly, it's not necessarily catastrophic. On a related topic, it is considered normal to have some wear particles > 5 microns. Oil analysis results are representative of the wear rate, but do not show the absolute # of wear going on. To get that you'd need to recover the particulates from the filter and do a particle count and/or direct ferrography from the sump. The latter technique would quantify the size distribution and the primary wear mechanism (abrasive, cohesive, chemical).

TS
 

spiceredwagon

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TS
spectrographic analysis only measures dissolved metallic ions and solid particles < 5 microns. So in that respect it can be misleading....
Thanks for that info, now I understand why the uoa does not change radically but the magnet does. So a top side oil change is going to hide a lot of evidence.

I paid for a TBN on the Total oil but the results came without it. When I called they said they would do it. I cant believe they still had the sample a week later. Well a week later another sheet showed up with a TBN #, trouble is I misplaced that. I think it was around 8.
 
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hutchman

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TooSlick said:
Hutchman,

Considering the bypass filter and the resultant 5.5-6.0 total sump capacity, those are very high iron levels. It will be interesting to see if you can arrest/reverse this trend by going to the thicker, API/CJ-4 spec oil.

To put things in perspective, if you dissolved a small paperclip in five quarts of oil, your iron level would be ~ 100 ppm, or one part in 10,000. So while this analysis looks ugly, it's not necessarily catastrophic. On a related topic, it is considered normal to have some wear particles > 5 microns. Oil analysis results are representative of the wear rate, but do not show the absolute # of wear going on. To get that you'd need to recover the particulates from the filter and do a particle count and/or direct ferrography from the sump. The latter technique would quantify the size distribution and the primary wear mechanism (abrasive, cohesive, chemical).

TS
I was pretty freaked out by the results considering what Iron was last interval. I called the lab and they did mention a type of ferrography test that they have available that will show all the particle sizes (I think the guy said normal UOA only looks at stuff 8 microns and below???). They still have my sample and haven't dumped it yet.

I'll be calling customer service again today to see what the price is (I think it was pretty expensive but the guy I talked to said he can't give out pricing).

The more I think about it ... while doing the ferrography test would be interesting, I may just do a closer inspection of the cam again (not in the dark and in a hurry like I was last time) when I have time.

I think I'll also do a 5K mile sample to see how the TDT 5W40 is trending.
 
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TornadoRed

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hutchman said:
I think I'll also do a 5K mile sample to see how the TDT 5W40 is trending.
I agree with TS that you should not over-react -- 100 ppm sounds horrible, as we have become accustomed to seeing under 40 ppm per 10k miles. But I had a similar test result with the Elf 0w30 CRV a few years ago, the one and only time I tried something else besides Mobil 5w40. It took a couple oil change cycles to get the Fe level back under 40 ppm. No permanent harm done.
 

Kriesel

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TornadoRed said:
I agree with TS that you should not over-react -- 100 ppm sounds horrible, as we have become accustomed to seeing under 40 ppm per 10k miles. But I had a similar test result with the Elf 0w30 CRV a few years ago, the one and only time I tried something else besides Mobil 5w40. It took a couple oil change cycles to get the Fe level back under 40 ppm. No permanent harm done.
I agree as well, look at this page of bobistheoilguy.com:

What is Oil Analysis?

On this page, toward the bottom, there is a list of acceptable values... On it, the Iron has an acceptable value between 100-200 ppm. Good reference site for what to consider as scary numbers.
 

Kriesel

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First Oil Analysis on this car, seems a bit high on Aluminum? Vehicle purchased about 10k miles ago, no previous history. This UOA was using Valvoline SYN Power Full Synthetic 5W-40 (505.01). Mileage of the car is on the report.

 
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Bob_Fout

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Kriesel said:
I agree as well, look at this page of bobistheoilguy.com:

What is Oil Analysis?

On this page, toward the bottom, there is a list of acceptable values... On it, the Iron has an acceptable value between 100-200 ppm. Good reference site for what to consider as scary numbers.
BITOG said:
"These are average numbers used but depending on your type of equipment may be higher or lower. Most reports have charts listed on the back to explain the severity of that component in ppm."
Those are generic values (and might be pretty old), and upon looking them over, some that show as acceptable are really not in our application. Si of 10 to 30 ppm? Crazy issues if you saw that in a VW, probably running with a leaky air filter. Over 100 ppm Fe/10K miles with a non-new engine? It's got issues. Same with every other wear metal they list.
 

hutchman

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On the quick inspection I did ... I did see one lifter (the right most one) that caught my eye. It looked like it had scratches or cuts radiating out from the center toward the edges. I found something I could get in there and rub on the top as kind of a feeler gauge but it felt smooth.

Like I said before ... it was at night in the dark and I was rushed for time. Weather/time permitting ... I'll look at it again in better light when I have more time and will post results.
 

TornadoRed

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Brock_from_WI said:
I just got my test back with a "critical" marked, it showed the Molybdenum at 53, in the previous three sample there was none present. Here is the full test results. Any thoughts on what cause this?
Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 does not contain any moly, to the best of my knowledge. So, how did it get in there?

Have you always used Mobil 5w40, Delvac or TDT?

I would be more concerned about the lead level, at 21 ppm, and the iron at 76. These are not normal for a 10k-mile OCI with Mobil 5w40.

And the viscosity! 9.94 centistokes? This is not a Mobil 1 5w40 or Delvac 1 5w40 sample. In fact your last three tests all show very low viscosity -- what oil have you been using?

I don't know what is wrong -- either something wrong with the oil or something seriously wrong with the engine. This does not look like Delvac 1 after 8k or 10k miles in an ALH engine.
 

Brock_from_WI

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The oil tested in this sample was Mobil 1 Truck & SUV which I thought was the same as Delvac? I did top off the last 1/3 quart with the last of the ELF CRV, probably not a good idea. The two changes before that were ELF CRV but then someone suggested I go back to Mobil because the number were a lot better before I started using ELF CRV.

Test number 4 (the bottom one) was when I was still running Mobil 1 Truck & SUV.

Two other things that have changed on this oil change. We moved about 2 miles from my work so there are a lot more really short trips (mostly winter when I couldn't bike) and this is the longest I let an oil change go, it has been in there a year, usually the 10k miles were about 8 months.
 

TooSlick

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Brock,

The 5w-30 oil you used is a version of Mobil 1 for gas engines. It does not carry the VW 505.00 rating, much less API/CJ-4. This oil is much too thin for a TDI and you are seeing increased ring/cylinder (Fe,Cr) and bearing (Pb,Ni) wear as a result. There's probably more cam/lifter wear, but it's hard to tell.

What you want is the 5w-40 version, called "Turbo Diesel Truck", or Delvac 1/ESP. Mobils' labelling system is confusing, but the key is the SAE grade. If you can't find the 5w-40, the 10w-40, High Mileage (ACEA B4), or the 0w-40 (VW 505.00) would be adequate.

TS
 

TooSlick

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Kriesel,

Results look normal for cam lobe & lifter wear, but the trace of potassium is interesting. Do they use lots of road salt in your local area?

TS
 

Brock_from_WI

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I believe you but I swore Truck & Suv had the CJ-4 rating? Did it at one time and they changed it to the Turbo Diesel Truck? In any case I will pick up the TDT and change the oil.

Yes they use LOTS of road salt, both our vehicles look white from the powder / dust layered on the cars in winter. (oops I see the salt question wasn't for me).

Well I changed out the oil, it had 300 miles on it so maybe it clean it out a bit as well, it has TDT in it now.

Thanks again!
 
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TornadoRed

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Brock_from_WI said:
The oil tested in this sample was Mobil 1 Truck & SUV which I thought was the same as Delvac?
There is your problem. Circa 2004, Mobil 1 Truck & SUV was a 5w40 viscosity with an API CI-4 spec. But about a year later it was withdrawn, and when T&SUV was reintroduced it was a gas-engine-only 5w30. Later on Mobil came out with Turbo Diesel Truck in the 5w40 viscosity.

In the future, read the label. Pay special attention to the "For Gas Engines Only" text in big letters.

Or, just remember that all 5w40 oils are synthetics (or pseudo-synthetics) and all are appropriate for 2003-and-earlier TDI engines. Not all are equal, some are more equal than others, but they will all work.
 

Brock_from_WI

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You are correct. I had been using Delvac 1 until I tried ELF CRV for two changes and I had been running Truck & SUV in our van and just assuming it was still the same dumped it in. My bad. So is this a huge mistake or is there anything I could / should do (besides read the labels on the bottles).

At least the oil testing caught it and you guys explained that I need to look before I pour caught it before I ran another couple changes through it.
 

Kriesel

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TooSlick said:
Kriesel,

Results look normal for cam lobe & lifter wear, but the trace of potassium is interesting. Do they use lots of road salt in your local area?

TS
Yeah I'm in Minnesota, so in the winter the roads are smothered in salt... haha

The car is bone stock as well.
 

TornadoRed

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Brock_from_WI said:
So is this a huge mistake or is there anything I could / should do (besides read the labels on the bottles).

At least the oil testing caught it and you guys explained that I need to look before I pour caught it before I ran another couple changes through it.
It will be fine. If I were you, I would change the oil after 10k miles but not bother to test again until 20k miles. At that point all the numbers should be pretty normal. The test results did not show any coolant or fuel contamination, so even with lots of short trips your TDI's number should be okay.
 

hid3

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Anyone have any NEW UOA's with Mobil 1 ESP in a PD (BEW/BRM) ran for more than 10k miles?

Is it a good idea to switch to 507.00 5w30 on a PD?
 

TooSlick

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Results with the VW 507.00 oils in the PD's have been inconsistent. If you're sticking with a VW Spec oil, I think a 5w-40, VW 505.01 product is still the safest bet.

For the PD's, thicker is better in terms of lube choice, simply due to the very high pressures in the valvetrain.

TS
 

hid3

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TooSlick, thank you for info. Could you please advise me a good/reliable VW505.01 5w40 oil? I'm using Motul Specific 505.01 5w40 but last days I've read lot about it in the forums. What I found made me worry since people who tried it and had UOA done said it is 'nothing special' and most of them switched to other oils shortly. Should I also switch or is it OK to continue using it?
 

TooSlick

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I haven't seen a VW 505.01 product that really stands out, although Mobil generally makes some good stuff. I'd probably try one of their VW 505.01 offerings like their Special Synt. 5w-40.

TS
 

TornadoRed

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jerry_m said:
TooSlick, thank you for info. Could you please advise me a good/reliable VW505.01 5w40 oil? I'm using Motul Specific 505.01 5w40 but last days I've read lot about it in the forums. What I found made me worry since people who tried it and had UOA done said it is 'nothing special' and most of them switched to other oils shortly. Should I also switch or is it OK to continue using it?
You folks in the UK have many different choices than what we are offered in the US and Canada.

The product descriptions of at least some 5w30 oils meeting VW 507.00 show that they are relatively "thick" 30-weight oils, not quite as viscous as 40-weights but nearly so. So... I think I would choose a 507.00 product, instead of a slightly-more-viscous 505.01, based on a better additive package.
 

TomB

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TooSlick said:
Results with the VW 507.00 oils in the PD's have been inconsistent. If you're sticking with a VW Spec oil, I think a 5w-40, VW 505.01 product is still the safest bet.

For the PD's, thicker is better in terms of lube choice, simply due to the very high pressures in the valvetrain.

TS
I have used the Motul 505.01 Specific, the Elf CRV Revolution 0w30, the Elf Solaris LSX 5w30 and now the Pentosin High Performance II 5w40 and must say the engine sounds completely different now for the better.

It seems like the BS noise has decreased.

Stick with the 5w40 grade, it really seems to make a difference.

I will be sampling my new oil numbers early to see if the high lead, copper and iron numbers change with the new oil.

Would be interesting to see what oil those who have had the BS failure and cam/lifter failures were using.
 

raybo

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All 507 Oils Are Not The Same Viscosity

The Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 (now available at Pep Boys) is a bit thicker than the Total 5w30 - thick enough to just make the MB 229.51 and BMW LL specs. I just switched the Golf to the Mobil and I'll be doing the same for the Jetta soon.

Ray
 

TomB

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raybo said:
The Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 (now available at Pep Boys) is a bit thicker than the Total 5w30 - thick enough to just make the MB 229.51 and BMW LL specs. I just switched the Golf to the Mobil and I'll be doing the same for the Jetta soon.

Ray
Currently using up my Solaris LSX 5w30 in the Jeep since it is MB229.51 spec. I might check out the Mobil 1 ESP since the MB V6 takes 10 Liters of oil every change.
 

dhdenney

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jerry_m said:
Anyone have any NEW UOA's with Mobil 1 ESP in a PD (BEW/BRM) ran for more than 10k miles?

Is it a good idea to switch to 507.00 5w30 on a PD?
I abandoned it after just 3,500 miles. And I had bought a whole case!
 

aja8888

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!9k on my new Balance Shaft oil analysis

After 19k and two oil changes using M1 TDT (CJ-4) and a dab of ZDDP, I have the following report: Note that aluminum is still high! Any thoughts?

Thanks,

 

TornadoRed

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This UOA should only be compared to other 2.0-liter Passat engines. The aluminum numbers are improving, which is the important thing IMO.

Viscosity is better, soot is low, no contamination. It looks good to me.
 
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