TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
2010- If you captured oil while draining, there is a good chance you picked up concentrated break in debris from the bottom of the sump. Best way to sample is to draw with a tube in dipstick hole, and only draw from the upper part of sump level. If tube hits bottom of pan, sample will be contaminated. A sucker pump is available at auto parts stores.

There may be nothing wrong with the engine.
 

torqueit

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Location
Rochester, MI
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
Thanks for the replies. I did have some rough starts and experienced the intercooler icing issue. Was fixed prior to this winter but I have not noticed any issues with performance or fuel economy since.

In response to ski, I did take it out of the drain pan. Will resample as you've described and report back in a month or so (I won't have access to the car for the next 3 weeks).

I certainly hope it wasn't a damaged engine from a hydrolock situation. If it is, the oil analysis was worth its weight on gold because I never would've been alerted to this otherwise.
 

Canary5.0

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2012
Location
Missouri
TDI
2012 Golf DSG w/ Tech Pkg. Malone Stage II

Topside oil changes with samples taken prior to oil extraction.
Tell me what you think. The higher wear levels than the first sample and the fact that there were very small metal flakes on top of my fuel filter have made me just ecstatic. :(
 
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TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Canary,

Your factory fill analysis was completely normal, which indicates a mechanically sound engine. I suspect you somehow inadvertently contaminated this second sample. Do yourself a favor and invest in a Fumoto drain valve. This will ease oil changes and allow you to improve the consistency of your sampling technique. You could also get a oil sample pump for about $25.00 that allows you to draw out a sample through the dipstick tube.

If you're using a topsider, but allowing the oil to cool down first, there's a good chance that residual wear metals are settling to the bottom of the oil pan. Draw a sample from this region and you can get data like you see here. Since you're only taking a few ounces of oil it's important to have everything evenly mixed up in the sump.

Sampling through the dipstick tube, the tubing should extend to the bottom of the dipstick. Measure this length and mark the tubing with a bit of tape or a Sharpie. (Pour out the first sample you take, it's got crud from the dipstick tube in it.) If you draw a sample thru a Fumoto valve, allow approx a quart of oil to drain first, then position the sample bottle & take the sample. The key is to be consistent!

TS
 
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Canary5.0

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2012
Location
Missouri
TDI
2012 Golf DSG w/ Tech Pkg. Malone Stage II
Do yourself a favor and invest in a Fumoto drain valve.
I purchased a Pela 6000 before my first oil change.
You could also get a oil sample pump for about $25.00 that allows you to draw out a sample through the dipstick tube.
Also purchased before first oil change. lol
I also took the sample no more than 5-10 minutes after a full warm up and cut the tube in the exact way you describe both times.
:confused:
The only thing that makes sense to me is that I have driven it harder this past 10k miles (not beating on it just full throttle on on ramps and such and only when warmed up fully as indicated by a Bullydog Watchdog.)

Thanks for the advice!
 
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detroitmike

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Location
Take a guess.
TDI
2013 Passat DSG
Thanks for the replies. I did have some rough starts and experienced the intercooler icing issue. Was fixed prior to this winter but I have not noticed any issues with performance or fuel economy since.

In response to ski, I did take it out of the drain pan. Will resample as you've described and report back in a month or so (I won't have access to the car for the next 3 weeks).

I certainly hope it wasn't a damaged engine from a hydrolock situation. If it is, the oil analysis was worth its weight on gold because I never would've been alerted to this otherwise.
I would probably do like mobhitmn suggests but I would not rely on the dealer. Especially if you get your service done at Fox VW. I had to fight with them to get my IC replacement on my 2012 jetta (sold, thank god). They were oblivious to the issue and basically thought I was crazy until 4 more cars came in the same week due to the right type of weather for IC icing to occur. Check out Munk's Motors in Waterford. I've never been there but from what I gather on this site they will pander to people with OCD about thier cars. Hopefully you don't have a hydrolock situation but better to get it confirmed before you run out of warranty at 60k. Good Luck.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Canary,

The most recent sample shows a lower flash point and higher fuel dilution. Fuel wash down the cylinders will cause directionally higher piston and cylinder wear. This extra fuel is probably due to short trip driving and/or cold temperatures. It looks like you're only putting about 12k a year on this vehicle? So you're never going to see the same results as somebody who drives 100 miles per day at highway speeds.

It seems to take at least 50,000 miles for the wear pattern on these 2.0L engines to stabilize. So I generally don't get too concerned with these low mileage engines showing fairly high wear metal concentrations.

TS
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
There's no rule saying you can't have both.

I went ahead and got both. Some of my oil changes are done top side, some are done from the bottom.

My Fumoto alway drips and is difficult to reach with a skid plate on. I'm thinking about going back to a regular drain plug. Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to stop the Fumoto from dripping and have a trick so the release lever of the valve ends up on the bottom instead of close to the top position?

Thanks
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Sootman,

You can double up on the gasket or use a thicker one to try and get the valve where you want it when tightened.

Are you saying the ball valve leaks? I've used these for years and never had one leak. The ball or nylon bushing must have gotten scored...

TS
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Sootman,

You can double up on the gasket or use a thicker one to try and get the valve where you want it when tightened.

Are you saying the ball valve leaks? I've used these for years and never had one leak. The ball or nylon bushing must have gotten scored...

TS
TS, thanks for the tip. Actually it's difficult to say whether or not the valve itself is leaking or is it coming out where the valve screws into the oil pan. It doesn't leak at all with a standard plug. But it could the gasket. I'll grab a couple of gaskets tomorrow, at least I'll be able to re-position the valve on install. I'll be changing the oil over the next few days, but would like to hear your suggestions.
 
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TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
All my other Fumoto valves are installed on steel oil pans. I blame the crappy Al threads on the VW/Audi pan. I noticed when I used to remove the plug I'd always have some slivers of metal come off as well. Did you use a torque wrench when you installed the valve?

The plugs are not expensive (a few bucks), so you could always go back to that.

TS
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
The spike in aluminum is bothersome on my latest UOA (2012 Passat). Any suggestions? The engine has seen Castrol LL03 since new.

 
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Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
Blue hen,

How are you taking samples?

Thanks,

TS
Consistent bottom side collection. This is not a collection issue.

I know that the EGR in the CR TDIs has been known to let some aluminum and potassium, but I wasn't expecting aluminum to go up three-fold.
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
All my other Fumoto valves are installed on steel oil pans. I blame the crappy Al threads on the VW/Audi pan. I noticed when I used to remove the plug I'd always have some slivers of metal come off as well. Did you use a torque wrench when you installed the valve?

The plugs are not expensive (a few bucks), so you could always go back to that.

TS
Sorry thought I'd answered this but must have deleted my attempted post. Anyway I tried using the copper washer as you suggested and now have the valve in a great position. I did not use a torque wrench as I don't have a 1/4" one. Although I haven't climbed under the car I'm not seeing any drips on the floor. So I'd say things have improved.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Blue Hen,

Unless you had some mechanical work done, there's no obvious reason for the spike in wear metals. If the engines running fine I wouldn't worry about it. You're still under warranty....

TS
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
Blue Hen,

Unless you had some mechanical work done, there's no obvious reason for the spike in wear metals. If the engines running fine I wouldn't worry about it. You're still under warranty....

TS
True that. Thanks. No mechanical work was done.

Hey, this is a shot in the dark. I know that aluminum and potassium have been attributed to EGR. Does the AdBlue/DPF system interact with the EGR cycle at all? I am admittedly very dumb on how that whole process works. The reason I ask is because I am doing a distance experiment on AdBlue. Instead of changing it every 10K mi, I am waiting to see how long I can go before I get a system warning. So far, I've gone 21K miles on my last brim fill of AdBlue. That made me wonder. If I've read other threads correctly, the car will simply refuse to start before it will run without AdBlue, correct? I am relying on the sensor to tell me when AdBlue is low, but I know sensors can malfunction or break. Just a though I had. Wasn't sure if there was any chance at all that depleted AdBlue could somehow correlate to increased aluminum from the EGR. If this makes no sense whatsoever, then that's good, as I can eliminate it as a reason for high aluminum.
 
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WardB

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Location
Utah
TDI
2000 NB
This is the first UOA on my newest TDI.All looks good except for the rise in viscosity. AFAIK, that's a result of soot in the oil. Vehicle is '00 NB with 95k miles.

I need a tune with either a dynamic EGR or EGR delete (ala Malone). Also need entire suspension refresh. Can't do both right now.

Any ideas about the increase in viscosity appreciated.

WardB

Ok, I give up trying to post the Blackstone pdf file. Bottom line is Rotella T6 at 7200 miles. Everything looks very good except the viscosity is slightly high. I can see and feel the difference between the TDI and my other CRD. I know there is better oil out there. There is also a Malone EGR delete.

If you can make any sense of this a reply would be greatly appreciated.

WardB
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
This is the first UOA on my newest TDI.All looks good except for the rise in viscosity. AFAIK, that's a result of soot in the oil. Vehicle is '00 NB with 95k miles.

I need a tune with either a dynamic EGR or EGR delete (ala Malone). Also need entire suspension refresh. Can't do both right now.

Any ideas about the increase in viscosity appreciated.

WardB

Ok, I give up trying to post the Blackstone pdf file. Bottom line is Rotella T6 at 7200 miles. Everything looks very good except the viscosity is slightly high. I can see and feel the difference between the TDI and my other CRD. I know there is better oil out there. There is also a Malone EGR delete.

If you can make any sense of this a reply would be greatly appreciated.

WardB
We need the soot and viscosity numbers :)

EDIT: Not sure you'll find a better oil than a CJ-4 5w40 for that old tractor diesel engine in your 2000. Can't compare it to a CRD.
 
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bobt2382

Veteran Member - TDIClub Contributor
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 CW GOLF 4DR 6MT TDI
WardB

Ok, I give up trying to post the Blackstone pdf file.
WardB
Ward,

I had to convert my PDF to JPEG file and then was able to post the JPEG to file server on TDI club.

If you want, PM me the PDF and I'll convert to you and email the JPEG file back to you.

Bob
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
Ward,

I had to convert my PDF to JPEG file and then was able to post the JPEG to file server on TDI club.

If you want, PM me the PDF and I'll convert to you and email the JPEG file back to you.

Bob
Just do a screen shot. If you have a PC that's Alt-Print Screen, paste it into Paint, crop as necessary and save as a JPEG. If you have a Mac, it's Shift-Command-4 and Mac OS let's you crop on the fly and automatically saves as a jpg. Then upload to the free file share website of your choice. Photobucket works great for me.

It's all too easy.
 

bobt2382

Veteran Member - TDIClub Contributor
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 CW GOLF 4DR 6MT TDI
Just do a screen shot. If you have a PC that's Alt-Print Screen, paste it into Paint, crop as necessary and save as a JPEG. If you have a Mac, it's Shift-Command-4 and Mac OS let's you crop on the fly and automatically saves as a jpg. Then upload to the free file share website of your choice. Photobucket works great for me.

It's all too easy.
Thanks!!
 

bobt2382

Veteran Member - TDIClub Contributor
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 CW GOLF 4DR 6MT TDI
29 Palms, eh? I did more CAX's there than I care to remember when I was active duty USMC, 1994-2000. :D

Lovely place, lol! I was stationed there 4 times and disliked every tour. I'm actually right up the road from you, in NJ, for a few more weeks visiting the family.

Bob
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Bobt,

I don't think your past analyses show any particular problem. You're operating in a dusty environment, so this has a tendency to increase the levels of upper engine metals (Cr/Fe/Ni/Al). I'd be diligent about air filter maintenance and maybe change those a bit more frequently than required (say every 30k vs 40k). I don't know if going to a slightly shorter oil/filter change interval of 7k-8k would help at all? But you could play around with that sort of thing too. Finally, you could try a 5w-40, low ash oil and see if that has any effect on wear rates.

TS
 

Airstream

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2000 Jetta; 2010 JSW
Here is my latest oil analysis. Honestly I put in more oil than I intended at around 9k miles so I just ran the oil until it went back to needing refilled. Probably a bad practice in hindsight just in order to save a little oil. There seems to be some areas of concern and since I just got this I just wanted to throw it up to get some other opinions. Viscosity is up and some of the key wear metals are too high for comfort. Oddly enough lead is down and that was my trouble area. Glad to see TBN is good. How good is that though? I am not familiar with the test.

I should mention that I got some new nozzles on this oil and so the engine has been working harder with the new found power. (DLC 1019's)

Any and all comments are welcome. I am a little worried.

Oh yeah: 2000 Jetta, Rotella T6 5w-40, 12,200 miles on oil. I test from the bottom when I drain, I try my best to get the middle of the drain.

 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Airstream,

What sort of supplemental oil additive was dumped into the crankcase? Results don't look too bad for an engine with 320+K miles. Some of the increased wear could be due to fuel wash down the cylinders, with the new larger nozzles. In other words you're over fueling a bit. The increase in Al and Si could also point to some dirt ingestion. I'd check the vacuum hoses and crankcase ventilation system for loose connections or leaks.

Also, what oil were you previously using?

Thanks,

Tk
 
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Airstream

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2000 Jetta; 2010 JSW
TooSlick,

No additives I swear! I will turn down my fueling a little bit. I really only see any smoke at WOT, and even then its a strong haze if anything. This is my second oil change on Rotella T6. The first oil analysis was Pentech Synthetic 5w-40. The engine has roughly 100k miles less than the car on it, due to a engine replacement in the early 2000's.

I will check the crankcase system, and probably replace the air filter. Anything else to think of? I suppose the higher viscosity is what you are meaning about the additives? Is that just from soot? Iron seems the highest, but they didn't seem concerned about it. I suppose the real story is the quadrupling of the aluminum....

Thanks Too Slick, any other words to calm my concerns are appreciated!! :)
 
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