TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

[nyrussell]

Thanks, will look to a guru for this

Russell,

I'd check the air filter and make sure there are no loose connections in the intake plumbing. I'd also inspect the crankcase ventilation system hoses. Your last test shows a significant increase in silicon, along with corresponding increases in Fe, Cr and Ni. This normally indicates abrasive wear of the intake and/or exhaust valves, which are made of stainless steel (iron, alloyed with chromium + nickel).

From 30k to 50k miles all your wear metals should be trending down...

TS

 

[Henrick]

Sootman, looks like your previous samples had low levels of Iron. Why did you replace the cam then? I wouldn't say it was wearing out judging by the previous UOAs...

 

[Sootman]

Sootman, looks like your previous samples had low levels of Iron. Why did you replace the cam then? I wouldn't say it was wearing out judging by the previous UOAs...

Unfortunately that shows how much UAO evidence doesn't guarantee a positive outcome. Cam was clearly worn and followers cracked. I had to replace everything. It'll be interesting to see if the iron drops after I drive another 20K miles.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Unfortunately that shows how much UAO evidence doesn't guarantee a positive outcome. Cam was clearly worn and followers cracked. I had to replace everything. It'll be interesting to see if the iron drops after I drive another 20K miles.

What?! UOAs don't tell you whole story about wear?! You mean UOAs are about oil condition and not engine condtion?!

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

(said with a bit of sarcasm and truth)

 

[Sootman]

What?! UOAs don't tell you whole story about wear?! You mean UOAs are about oil condition and not engine condtion?!
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/
(said with a bit of sarcasm and truth)

Bob,
Henrick had referred to UOA's as a way to judge wear (or as I understood his post). At least in my case there was no obvious wear patterns as shown in the previous oil samples. I know some have reported increased metal(s) in their oil prior to the cam crapping out.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Bob,
Henrick had referred to UOA's as a way to judge wear (or as I understood his post). At least in my case there was no obvious wear patterns as shown in the previous oil samples. I know some have reported increased metal(s) in their oil prior to the cam crapping out.

Yes, we're on the same page. That was my point.

 

[Mopar-VW-Dieselman]

Oil test results - Input requested

Hello all...
I had my oil tested. Results aren't great, but they could be worse. I'm the second owner. The car had 82,xxx when I bought it. It had 152,507 when I changed the oil and had it tested. All oil changes while I have owned the car have been done at about 9K to 10K except the last one was about 11K. Please look at the results and give me your opinion. ...Also, I was thinking of doing a compression test. Do you think it will help or be a waste of time?

 

[TornadoRed]

Hello all...
I had my oil tested. Results aren't great, but they could be worse. I'm the second owner. The car had 82,xxx when I bought it. It had 152,507 when I changed the oil and had it tested.

Viscosity is 18.11 centiStokes? That's not a 40-weight oil, that's a 60-weight or 70-weight!

I wonder if that test result is the correct one for the sample you sent in.

 

[TooSlick]

Mopar,

I think you're seeing the effects of excessive dirt ingestion and/or elevated soot levels. I'd check the intake track and air filter, along with the CCV hoses. I'd also inspect the EGR valve and see if it's gunked up. This can cause high levels of soot and abnormal nitration, which can thicken the oil.

A viscosity of ~ 18 Cst is a mid range, SAE 50wt oil. It's VERY rare for the Mobil 1/TDT or Delvac ESP to thicken up a grade. So there has to be an underlying engine issue here....

TS

 

[TooSlick]

I should add to my comments above...

This is the right additive signature for the Mobil 1, 5w-40. So I don't think the samples got mixed up...

TS

 

[Mopar-VW-Dieselman]

Thanks for the input. I'll check the EGR. I always change the air filter, oil filter and cabin filters when I change the oil. About 3K before I changed the oil, the (vacuum) actuator for the turbo went bad and was replaced. I only drove about 50 miles home after I lost turbo boost as I was on my way home. I don't think 50 miles would have caused the issue. Just before that my son replaced all of the vacuum hoses as well. I'll check EGR tomorrow and post back as soon as I can.

 

[TooSlick]

Mopar,

These are high wear rates for the Mobil 1, 5w-40 in an older TDI engine. It's more typical to see Fe in the 25-40 ppm range after 10,000 miles on the same oil. It's possible your turbo failure skewed the results of this one test. It's really hard to tell that much from a single data point....

You might want to do a shorter (7.5k), service interval this time around and change the oil & filter when you hit 160,000 miles - then go back to the 10k interval and maybe test again at 170k miles. I also think running a strong dose of diesel fuel additive with a full tank of fuel might help by cleaning the injectors. The diesel fuel additive that Redline Oil makes is excellent and you can get it at Autozone or Advance Auto.

TS

 

[shuswap]

Mopar,

snipped....I also think running a strong dose of diesel fuel additive with a full tank of fuel might help by cleaning the injectors. The diesel fuel additive that Redline Oil makes is excellent and you can get it at Autozone or Advance Auto.

TS

Hey TooSlick, may I ask which of these products you are referring to?
Thanks!
http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=11

 

[TooSlick]

Shuswap,

The one I've seen locally is the diesel fuel catalyst in the small (12 oz?) bottle. Good stuff...

TS

 

[shuswap]

Shuswap,

The one I've seen locally is the diesel fuel catalyst in the small (12 oz?) bottle. Good stuff...

TS

Thanks, I'll pick some up.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Yup, both the Diesel Fuel Catalyst and 85+ (same stuff in different bottles) are good Redline diesel additives.

 

[Samcar222]

Guys, firstly I apologize for momentarily hijacking this thread, but I have a silly question...
My JSW is coming on its 40k service (done at a European indy shop that we know well) and currently has 39,300 miles, and its motor oil change was due at 38,800... By the time it gets to the shop this coming monday (earliest appointment, obviously) it will be about 900 miles over the oil interval (39,700)... I know it's fine and it won't hurt the engine, blah bla bla, I'm just OCD and paranoid about my cars ..... to all the oil gurus here.. tell me my car is ok.. And the car is meticulously maintained, with proper Castrol SLX 507.00 as by the book at 10k intervals, correct amount, etc. Of the 700 miles over, most likely 400 or 500 of them were on the highway, which is apparently easier on oil than stop/go (probably 2/3 of the 40k miles on the car were highway driven, to be precise).
Thanks and sorry again for the hijack.
Cheers

 

[TooSlick]

Samcar,

Most of the VW 507.00 oils are showing some margin of safety after 10,000 miles, based on the analyses I've reviewed. You could go 20%-25% over this under most types of driving conditions before the oil would be severely depleted.

TS

 

[jmarshall]

Here is my most recent UOA. Cause for concern? Should I change at 3-5K as suggested? Go to 10K and see what it looks like?

 

[bannister]

^^I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the oil and/or how much the wear results are a characteristic of the engine itself?

 

[TornadoRed]

Here is my most recent UOA. Cause for concern? Should I change at 3-5K as suggested? Go to 10K and see what it looks like?

Your results look fairly normal for a newish TDI engine with about 20k miles on it. It looks like the additive package was not depleted, and the viscosity was okay, so the oil was probably still performing as it was supposed to.

I recommend continuing with a 10k-mile oil change interval and maybe testing again after 40k or 50k miles.

 

[TooSlick]

Jmarshall,

These viscosities are very low - are you running biodiesel???

TS

 

[jmarshall]

Your results look fairly normal for a newish TDI engine with about 20k miles on it. It looks like the additive package was not depleted, and the viscosity was okay, so the oil was probably still performing as it was supposed to.
I recommend continuing with a 10k-mile oil change interval and maybe testing again after 40k or 50k miles.

Regardless, I think I'll test again at odo reading 30k.

Jmarshall,

These viscosities are very low - are you running biodiesel???

TS

B5 by PA mandate.

 

[Mopar-VW-Dieselman]

Mopar,

These are high wear rates for the Mobil 1, 5w-40 in an older TDI engine. It's more typical to see Fe in the 25-40 ppm range after 10,000 miles on the same oil. It's possible your turbo failure skewed the results of this one test. It's really hard to tell that much from a single data point....

You might want to do a shorter (7.5k), service interval this time around and change the oil & filter when you hit 160,000 miles - then go back to the 10k interval and maybe test again at 170k miles. I also think running a strong dose of diesel fuel additive with a full tank of fuel might help by cleaning the injectors. The diesel fuel additive that Redline Oil makes is excellent and you can get it at Autozone or Advance Auto.

TS

I checked the EGR last week and all looks rather clean. No build up to speak of. I do have DIESEL KLEEN, Cetane Boost. I'll add some in the morning when I fill up. I'll pick up some Diesel additive from Redline Oil and try that if you think it's better than Diesel Kleen. I used DIESEL PURGE about 20K before last oil change. I think I'll try about 7K or 7.5K and do another change and oil analysis. I guess best thing to do now is another analysis with less mileage. I will run about 1 1/2 tanks of B99 starting in a few weeks. With the SMOG test every 2 years, that helps with the "snap throttle" test (no smoke).

 

[TooSlick]

Mopar,

Sounds like you're doing all the right things.

TS

 

[jon_slider]

2.5 AEL TDi in Vanagon Syncro

I recently sent in my first Motor Oil sample to Blackstone Labs. I am very impressed with their service.

My Oil sample report came back with info showing my silicone and Iron levels are high, but my additive package was not depleted, which suggests the 5000 mile interval is shorter than necessary.

You will also note high Molybdenum in my sample, it is because I used a motor oil called LubroMolly prior to this Castrol NewSyntec, now called Castrol Edge with SPT 5w40 which is 501.01 rated.

The collumn on the far right is average sample data from US model 2.5 TDi motors in the Sprinter, since my AEL TDi is not a US motor.

My syncro drives offroad in very high dust environment. Blackstone correctly suggested the possibility of dust getting past my air filter.

in another forum comments were made that the CF rating is not as good as a CJ-4 and Im planning to try Rotella T6 next.

any other insights on interpreting this sample data are welcome

 

[TooSlick]

Jon,

The oil is holding up fine and you could certainly increase the service interval by 50% - I don't see a pressing need to change oils at this point (I'd say the Moly is from both brands of oil; it tends to stay in the system). I'd concentrate on filtration, both air and oil. Make sure there are no leaks in the intake system and that the filter is properly seated in the housing. If you're going to keep this vehicle forever, consider the use of a one micron, Amsoil bypass filter or something similar. This will help keep the silicone down and allow you to run much longer service intervals.

I'm not familiar with the normal wear signature of this particular engine, but it looks similar to other TDI's. What is the dump capacity of this model and does it use a canister type oil filter?

BTW, with only 32,000 miles there's a strong possibility the wear rates haven't stabilized yet, ie the engine is still breaking in.

If you have questions, please let me know.

TS

 

[jon_slider]

Thanks for the very helpful feedback.

I fill with 6 quarts of oil and the filter is a large cannister Mann.

My main concern is whether the Castrol Edge SPT is a poor choice since it is designated CF and not CJ-4. And whether it would be better to use Rotella.

I asked Blackstone for some feedback on Delvac vs Rotella, and they said they see more Aluminum in the Delvac, hence my lean towards Rotela. The comparison data on my sample is 5cyl Sprinter TDis, and that was the source motor of the Aluminum comment. They only had about four Sprinters worth of data.. very limited.

I had one TDi guru tell me that Castrol Edge 5w40 is not diesel rated, which seems innacurate. And my TBN above 8 sure seems to me to be suitable.. Thanks for confirming my hunch could prolong the oil change interval.

will look into the bypass filter option
thanks again

 

[TooSlick]

Jon,

The API, CJ-4/SM rated, HD diesel oils do work very well in these motors. They also tend to be formulated about 10% thicker than a VW Spec (505.00/505.01/507.00) oil.. Both the Mobil 1/5w-40 and the Rotella T6 synthetic will be fine in this application. I'd go with whichever is more cost effective.

I should add that with only 32,000 miles on this motor, some of the Si in the analysis is silicon(e), which is harmless chemical leaching from new seals & gaskets. Spectrographic oil analysis cannot discriminate between this and silicon (silica), which is a normal component of common dust. If you were sucking in lots of unfiltered air, you'd see elevated chrome and nickel from the stainless steel alloy used for the intake and/or exhaust valves.

TS

 

[jon_slider]

> If you were sucking in lots of unfiltered air, you'd see elevated chrome and nickel from the stainless steel alloy used for the intake and/or exhaust valves.

thanks for the extremely helpful and reassuring interpretation

After the current Castrol Edge SPT 5w40 oil cycle I will switch to Rotella T6.

I was paying about $36 a gallon for the Castrol, Found Rotella T6 5w40 at Wallyworld for $21