TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

[TooSlick]

It's normal for oil to thicker from evaporation of some of the lighter (lower molecular weight), components, and from the processes of oxidation & nitration. These effects are normally offset to some degree by shearing & fuel dilution.

Delvac is pretty shear stable and fuel dilution is low in this case, hence the oil thickened a little. Viscosity increases are only a concern if they're accompanied by high soot levels, which affect abrasive wear and can lead to filter plugging.

TS

 

[armyschus]

The oil analysis results below are the first for my wife's 2006 TDI. Have used Motul Specific since the first oil change at 5,000 miles. Both on my TDIs are howing high iron with 10,000 mile intervals. I have always used the VW approved oil and both of my cars have indications of cam replacement in the future. I have installed a Dieselgeek bypass filter on my 2005 TDI and will pull a 5,000 mile sample at the end of this week. I am strongly considering switching to either Delvac 1 ESP or Mobil 1 TDT.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Not sure any oil will save your cam...

 

[TooSlick]

Rich,

since this engine is still covered by the Powertrain Warranty, I'd take it to the dealer, along with a copy of this report and document a visual inspection of the valvetrain. What you're seeing here is a cascading failure of first the cam lobes & lifters, followed directly by the cam bearings. The Pb/Ni/Cu levels are a clear indication of the latter.

If the '05 is out of warranty, I would try a thicker, CH-4+ or CJ-4, API spec diesel oil. You MAY be able to extend the life of the original parts if you go this route, depending on how far the situation has progressed.

How many cold starts a day & what's the average trip length?

TS

 

[TornadoRed]

The oil analysis results below are the first for my wife's 2006 TDI. Have used Motul Specific since the first oil change at 5,000 miles. Both on my TDIs are howing high iron with 10,000 mile intervals. I have always used the VW approved oil and both of my cars have indications of cam replacement in the future. I have installed a Dieselgeek bypass filter on my 2005 TDI and will pull a 5,000 mile sample at the end of this week. I am strongly considering switching to either Delvac 1 ESP or Mobil 1 TDT.

TooSlick raises a good point -- this engine is still under warranty. Not sure about your other one, but it might still fall under the 4 year/60k mile powertrain warranty.

Clearly the Motul is not doing a good job. Maybe Delvac 1, maybe TDT... here's a thought, what about adding some ZDDP? Your engine(s) may be a perfect candidate for ZDDP.

 

[TooSlick]

The thing is, the 5w-40, Motul VW 505.01 oil is working just fine for thousands of other PD owners world wide - including many TDI Forum listers. So what's the "X" factor here? Is it severity of service, soot/silicon levels, fuel quality, individual driving habits???? :-(

Trying to make sense of the PD failure mode data is maddening....

TS

 

[kcfoxie]

no one really knows the common denominator.

i show wear signs on a chipped, b100 using, motul and now m1 tdt using tdi @90k.

other cars failed well before this with 50501 and no b100 and no tune.

luck of the draw, i say.

 

[Ski in NC]

Luck of the draw, indeed. Many failed pd cams have one or two bad lobes, with the rest being perfect. Obviously all eight lobes are running in the same oil, so if it was simply due to the "wrong" oil they would show a similar wear pattern.

 

[armyschus]

The 06 is my wife's car. has 2 or more cold starts per day. She drives around the local area during the week, avg trip length is 5 miles. We drive her car on the weekends and the avg trip length is 18 miles. The car is still under warrenty, not sure the local dealer even understands the issues with the PD motors. Will engage them to look at hers and mine. Pulled a 5K oil sample from mine tonight and will send to Blackstone labs tomorrow for the analysis.

 

[TooSlick]

I think one issue is that ZDDP (the primary anti-wear additive), does not become fully effective until the oil temps reach ~75C (167F). So PD's that see short trip service - even in warm climates - are more prone to abnormal wear. It seems like overkill, but something as simple as a block heater could perhaps mitigate this issue.
I'd be willing to bet that once the oil reaches an equilibrium temp, there is very little cam/lifter wear going on in the PD motors, unless you're running abnormally high soot levels.
TS

 

[Bob_Fout]

I think one issue is that ZDDP (the primary anti-wear additive), does not become fully effective until the oil temps reach ~75C (167F). So PD's that see short trip service - even in warm climates - are more prone to abnormal wear. It seems like overkill, but something as simple as a block heater could perhaps mitigate this issue.
I'd be willing to bet that once the oil reaches an equilibrium temp, there is very little cam/lifter wear going on in the PD motors, unless you're running abnormally high soot levels.
TS

Wjdell's impromptu experiment with an oil pan heater *did* show lower wear.

TS what about AW additives other than ZDDP in today's newer oils?

 

[TooSlick]

Bob,
There are ashless AW additives like boron & various types of esters that may be more effective than simply ZDDP. You'll note that several of the VW 505.01 oils contain these sorts of compounds. But I haven't seen anything in the oil analysis data from the PD engines to suggest there's any sort of panecea to prevent abnormal wear.
For the PD motors, I'd look for:

1) A HT/HS viscosity in the 3.7-4.3 Cp range @150C (the higher end of that viscosity range seems to reduce Fe levels)

2) A moderately high level of ZDDP - at least 800 ppm of P and 1000 ppm of Zinc. (Note the CJ-4 oils have less ZDDP than CI-4+, but seem to work equally well)

3) Excellent shear stability (I'd avoid 0w-40 grades)

4) A TBN of at least 8.0 (I like to see some reserve after 10k miles)


TS

 

[wjdell]

ditto - ZDDP is not neccessary - will shorten emissions device life - CJ4 oils are working well - UOA database updated

 

[armyschus]

I contacted my local dealer and was told they would not inspect the camshaft unless I was having drivability problems. Recommended that I call VW Customer Care. As expected, VW Customer Care does not employ technically qualified telephone personnel. The gentleman I talked to made a record of my concern and stated that I could pay out of pocket for the inspection at the local dealer's hourly rates. If a problem was identified, all would be covered. I can pull the valve cover and do the inspection myself. Other that obvious signs of abnormal wear on the cam lobes and lifers, what should the cam lobes measure with a micrometer?

I purchased two gallons of Delvac 1 ESP for my 2005 TDI today at the Petro Service Station in Elkton, MD for $35.99 each. Will change the oil this weekend. The Blackstone Lab report below is for my 2005 TDI after 5K miles since the last oils change. Added a Diesel Geek bypass kit and an ECS magnetic drain plug at the 50K service. I may have pulled to much oil for the 50K sample from the bottom of the oil pan. I used a vampire pump to pull the 55K sample from the dip stick tube. Wear metals are reduced but I am still going to switch to the Delvac 1 ESP. need to find a replacement EaBP90 filter from a local Amsoil Dealer. Anyone know of an Amsoil dealer in or near Harford County, MD?


http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=57633&cat=500&ppuser=34688

 

[Macaco]

Oil Analysis Input

I just got my 1st Analysis & would like some input
FYI, I run B20

THANKS

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/uploads/71190/Report.JPG

 

[armyschus]

Macaco

Could not pull up you lab results with the link you posted. What year is your TDI and what were the iron, silicon, bearing metals, soot, and fuel values.

 

[Macaco]

Try it now & see if it works PLEASE

 

[TornadoRed]

Macaco: the numbers all look normal. What is the oil history for this engine? Has it always been run with Syntec?

 

[Macaco]

Macaco: the numbers all look normal. What is the oil history for this engine? Has it always been run with Syntec?

I bought the car when it had 66K, so no idea what was before but on my time YES always the SYNTEC.

 

[TooSlick]

Macaco,

Since this isn't a PD engine, I think you could lower these wear rates by perhaps 1/3 by using a slightly heavier, API/CJ-4 spec diesel oil (Delvac 1/TDT, Amsoil/DEO, Rotella T synthetic, etc)

TS

 

[TornadoRed]

TS: Castrol Syntec 5w40 has a viscosity of 14.0 centistokes at 100°C.

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w40 has a viscosity of 13.35 cSt, for Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 it is 14.9 cSt.

So ESP Formula M is in the lower part of the 40-weight range, TDT in the upper part, and Castrol Syntec in between.

I agree with you that there are better oils than Castrol Syntec. But will it make any difference in Macaco's engine? Probably not. His engine is doing okay with Syntec, and switching will probably not prolong its life. I doubt that he will look back, after his TDI rolls past the 700k-mile market on the odometer, and say to himself, "Gee I wish I'd switched to a different oil way back when."

Syntec is not the best oil for TDIs, but it is not killing TDIs either.

 

[Macaco]

THANKS for all the replies so far.

So then which Oil would be the best?
We are not talking about a lot of money here & every little bit helps.

After seeing the analysis, does it means that I can extend the oil change interval (Miles)? If Yes, what should I go to?

Again THANKS for the replies.

 

[TornadoRed]

THANKS for all the replies so far.

So then which Oil would be the best?
We are not talking about a lot of money here & every little bit helps.

After seeing the analysis, does it means that I can extend the oil change interval (Miles)? If Yes, what should I go to?

I think 10k miles is a good oil change interval (OCI) for nearly all synthetic oils in the TDI engine. Some members have installed secondary bypass filters and are able to go much longer between oil changes, and you might want to research that if you're interested.

As for what is better... lots of us have opinions. Browse through this forum, then make up your own mind. Just remember that your engine does not require an oil meeting a VW specification -- API-rated oils meeting CI-4 or CJ-4 will do just fine, so long as they are synthetic 5w40 oils.

 

[GoldJag]

09 Jetta TDI. 9,420 miles on factory fill

Let me tell you about my 1st time

Aluminum 25
Chromium 3
Iron 78
Copper 40
Lead 3
Tin 2
Molybdenum 4
Nickel 1
Manganase 6
Silver 0
Titanium 1
Potassium 53
Boron 2
Silicon 23
Sodium 6
Calcium 1746
Magnesium 10
Phosphorus 652
Zinc 926
Barium 0
SUS 66.8
cST 12.11
Flashpoint 420 F
Fuel % <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 0.3
TBN 2.3

Comments: The high wear metals and silicon are not unusual finds in the oil from your new TDI. This is due to break-in of new parts, while silicon is from sealers and sand-casted parts. Universal averages show typical wear metals for oil from this engine after 8,100 miles use. We expect your engine will look that good or better in two or three more oil changes. The 2.3 TBN shows some additive left (1.0 is the low cutoff). The mildly thin viscosity wasn't from fuel and shouldn't be an issue. A shorter oil run will make wear-in faster, but try 11k miles next fill if you like. Check back.




This is from a 09 CBEA at 9,420 miles. What do you think

 

[Pelican18TQA4]

Looks to be on par with the other CBEAs that have sampled/changed at a similar interval.

 

[TornadoRed]

This is from a 09 CBEA at 9,420 miles. What do you think

It's very typical for a new TDI after ~10k miles. About the only thing of value in this report is that there was no fuel or coolant contamination -- but I think you can discern this yourself by sight and smell.

I suggest not testing again until 30k miles, then using that UOA as a baseline for additional testing maybe every 30k miles after that. Or if you change to a different oil manufacturer, or if you're experiencing a problem and you think a UOA might prove or disprove a theory.

 

[TooSlick]

It looks like the low TBN, VW 507.00 spec oils will barely last for 10k service intervals in the TDI. I certainly wouldn't want to push this oil much more with a TBN of 2.3. You could probably go another 2000 miles before the detergent additives are totally depleted.

It's possible now that the engine is broken in you'll get less blow by and the oil will degrade more slowly. However these early tests don't seem to indicate these very low "SAPS" lubes are extended drain products.

TS

 

[TornadoRed]

It looks like the low TBN, VW 507.00 spec oils will barely last for 10k service intervals in the TDI. I certainly wouldn't want to push this oil much more with a TBN of 2.3. You could probably go another 2000 miles before the detergent additives are totally depleted.

TS, we've been spoiled by oils with a high initial TBN, so high that it's still 6.0 or 7.0 when we drain it after 10k miles. But the lab techs and at least a few sources I've read continue to say that the anti-acid fighting capabilities of the oil are not depleted until TBN reaches 1.0. (and that makes sense even though I never took high school chemistry)

If oil cost as much here as in Europe, then we would have more incentive to extend the OCI out to 15k or 20k miles or even further. But that first oil change for a new TDI engine, at 10k miles, is probably about right.

 

[TooSlick]

The problem is if you continually allow the TBN to get too low, you start to generate oil deposits that are very difficult to remove. This happens even with the best synthetic oils. A typical condemnation limit for TBN is 2.0, using the ASTM D-4739 test method that most labs employ. I prefer a more conservative lower TBN limit of 3-4, based on experience.

I'd certainly agree that changing out oil with a TBN of 6-8 is overkill....

TS

 

[Ski in NC]

TS- Does the low sulfur fuel allow a lower tbn at both the start of oci and also at the end of the oci? It seems that with lower rate of acid formation the tbn need not be that high.

I'm asking from a position of semi-ignorance...