TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

turbobrick240

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Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The "eco" tune refers to the lack of DPF on the vehicle, thus no need for a low ash oil. The UOA in that post is 90% highway miles. Car now runs quite a bit more city, but not stop and go traffic. If the the oil had sheared too much, would wear have gone up as well?

Based on your exceptionally low wear numbers, I'd just keep doing whatever you're doing. ;)
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
The "eco" tune refers to the lack of DPF on the vehicle, thus no need for a low ash oil. The UOA in that post is 90% highway miles. Car now runs quite a bit more city, but not stop and go traffic. If the the oil had sheared too much, would wear have gone up as well?
All I am saying are the tolerances in the bearings such that a 5w-40 is unnecessary and would a 5w-30 cj4 do just as well wear wise. The shearing of the oil seams to indicate the bearings are designed for a 30 weight oil and less shearing allows the 30 wt to run cooler and protect just as well.

With the Eco tune you have a great opportunity to take advantage of a 5w-30 CJ4 oil that likely will last 15000 miles plus, provide equal protection and return improved fuel mileage because you have a roller cam and really no need for a 40 wt.
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
All I am saying are the tolerances in the bearings such that a 5w-40 is unnecessary and would a 5w-30 cj4 do just as well wear wise. The shearing of the oil seams to indicate the bearings are designed for a 30 weight oil and less shearing allows the 30 wt to run cooler and protect just as well.

With the Eco tune you have a great opportunity to take advantage of a 5w-30 CJ4 oil that likely will last 15000 miles plus, provide equal protection and return improved fuel mileage because you have a roller cam and really no need for a 40 wt.
I see what you're saying, and if fuel economy could be improved with the same wear rates as TDT then I'm all for it. Reason I went with the TDT was it's price vs the low ash 5w-30s (507) oils, plus I use it in my '01. What 5w-30 oils are folks using that aren't of the more expensive 507 flavors?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
What 5w-30 oils are folks using that aren't of the more expensive 507 flavors?
Good question. I would look at all the latest CPK oils since they are CJ4 oils but for future energy efficient engines. here is an example of how this new classification has updated the viscosities available.

https://lubricants.petro-canada.com/en-CA/productoverview/brand/productline/DURON-UHP

You can see how Petro Canada has embraced the new CPK/CJ4 rating with lighter viscosity oils. Other companies are likely doing the same.

Edit: read the sales product line of DURON UHP 5W-30 claiming 2X protection and 4% increase in fuel economy. There must be a lot of boron in these oils to get the base rating they have.
 
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Blue_Hen_TDI

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Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
2015 GSW purchased new in May 2017. Dumped the factory fill (or whatever the dealer had replaced during EPA purgatory) at 1k miles for my own peace of mind and ran this Castrol Edge Professional LL03 5w30 VW 507.00 spec up to 10k mi.

 

PD Rig

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
2004, 2015 Golf TDI
2015 GSW purchased new in May 2017. Dumped the factory fill (or whatever the dealer had replaced during EPA purgatory) at 1k miles for my own peace of mind and ran this Castrol Edge Professional LL03 5w30 VW 507.00 spec up to 10k mi.
Those are good number in my non expert opinion. Especially for an engine that has jut started breaking in. Are you running bioblended fuel?
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
Are you running bioblended fuel?
No, just whatever comes out of the pumps here in Delaware. We have no bio mandate. I fill almost exclusively at Shell due to Fuel Rewards membership and add 8oz PowerService per fill up.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
James,

Amsoil now blends an SAE 5w-30, "CK-4/SN" rated, gas & HD diesel oil in their "Max Duty" product line. I just got in a four gallon case of the stuff to use in several vehicles, including my 2012, Audi S5 coupe w/ the 4.2L, DI V8. The stuff isn't cheap however....

I'm trying it in the Audi instead of one of their European Formulas because the ash level is fairly low (0.9%) and the TBN is high at 10.1. The price per quart is also less than their VW 504/507 stuff.

TS
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
James,

I figured the 5w-30 would be best for a VW/Audi gas engine and my Subaru Outback, but one of the 40wt versions would probably give you even less wear in a high mileage TDI diesel. I'm assuming they are all using the same basic additive chemistry and similar base oil blends....The 5w-30 has less ZDDP to meet the 800 ppm, Phosphorus limit for the API/SN, gas engine Spec. That's why the ash level is lower than for the other SAE grades.

TS


https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
That does look great! Some questions for you...

1) What is the unitID? Inquiring minds what to know. :D
2) Assumption is that this was Castrol LL03 VW oil?
3) Assumption is that you have stop-sale car, so do you know if the dealer changed, before you bought, the factory fill oil or not? (I confirmed mine was changed before taking delivery)

I'm due for my first and only dealer oil change (free is free and I actually like the dealership and service group) next week and then my plan is to send a sample at 10k as my baseline (it should be which should be totally free of "break-in" metals) and switch to Schaeffers 8008 and see how the next 10k analysis looks.

In my MK5 CRD the VW 507 oil was usually trashed after, right after, the 10k run so I've never really been a fan. My DPF had failed so I was lucky enough to get to switch over to the great Mobil Delvac ESP 1 oil (ran it on my MK5 PD for years) in my car for the last 70k mile of my ownership until it went back to VW and I got my stop-sale GSW. When I chatted with a pioneer on the VW valve train design and oiling system, and he recommends Schaeffers over Delvac, I had to give it a shot. I grabbed me a case and will proceed to pile on as many miles as fast as I can to get the next 10k done. Lol What can I say, I like to drive and I can't wait to get my Fumoto valve installed, Schaeffers oil in and a UOA done. :D:D
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
MrRogers,

If you have a functional DPF, understand that the metallic ash levels of the latest HD diesel oils (CK-4 or CJ-4), is STILL relatively high @1.0%. That's 66% higher than most VW 507.00 formulations, which typically come in ~ @0.6%. The bottom line is that all things being equal, you ARE going to load your DPF up much faster using a HD diesel oil in a DPF equipped, passenger car diesel. Your car & your choice of course. The only mitigating factor is that oil consumption may be somewhat lower with the thicker 5w-40, than with a 0w-30/5w-30, VW 507.00 oil.

Clogging of the DPF is a function of the metallic ash level of the oil AND total oil consumption over the life of the engine. This is something anybody can easily test on their own by switching back and forth between a VW 507.00 oil and a XW-40/CK-4, HD diesel oil, and carefully measuring oil consumption over the course of the 10,000 mile oil change. interval.

TS
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
MrRogers,

If you have a functional DPF, understand that the metallic ash levels of the latest HD diesel oils (CK-4 or CJ-4), is STILL relatively high @1.0%. That's 66% higher than most VW 507.00 formulations, which typically come in ~ @0.6%. The bottom line is that all things being equal, you ARE going to load your DPF up much faster using a HD diesel oil in a DPF equipped, passenger car diesel. Your car & your choice of course. The only mitigating factor is that oil consumption may be somewhat lower with the thicker 5w-40, than with a 0w-30/5w-30, VW 507.00 oil.

Clogging of the DPF is a function of the metallic ash level of the oil AND total oil consumption over the life of the engine. This is something anybody can easily test on their own by switching back and forth between a VW 507.00 oil and a XW-40/CK-4, HD diesel oil, and carefully measuring oil consumption over the course of the 10,000 mile oil change. interval.

TS
I may be wrong or I wasn't clear in my intentions but I don't think the Schaeffer 8008 is a HD oil like the Delvac, I'd never run Delvac in a DPF car. I've learn much from you and the oil Guru's over these years. :D
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
From their Spec sheet, the Schaeffers "8008" is described as a "Mid-SAPS" formulation, which they list as suitable for both VW 502/505.00 AND VW 504/507. Ash content is given as 0.8%. I've never seen an explicit ash limit for the 504/507 oils, except that they meet the generic "ACEA C3" specification, which caps the metallic ash limit @0.8%. Of course there are also performance requirements associated with VW 504/507 that have to do with limits on wear protection, sludge/varnish/carbon deposits, fuel efficiency, oil consumption, etc...

That's a long winded way of saying you're in good shape using the "8008" stuff in a DPF equipped VW/Audi engine....?

TS
 

mountain lion

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
04 Jetta TDI
Any thoughts on this report? The high silicon is concerning in the last two tests. A little over 22k miles ago a new VNT-17 was installed, new Franko6 stage 2 cam shaft kit (new INA lifters, cam bearings, etc) and the injectors had new PP1043 nozzles installed. The only new seals added were on the injectors and the main camshaft seal at the tandem pump. Valve cover was not replaced.

I replaced the air filter shortly after the 2/8/17 report (about 1000 miles into the latest report). I just pulled the entire intake piping to the turbo and verified no leaks/cracks etc. There are no boost leaks on the charge side, but I do have the darkside side mount kit which uses several silicone connectors through out the assembly.

Hoping this is just break in wear.



 
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TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Mr Lion,

Spectrographic oil analysis can't discern whether it's abrasive silicon, or polymeric silicon(e) in the used oil sample. What you're seeing here is normal chemical leaching of silicone from new seals and/or gaskets. It causes no harm and will dissipate after a few more oil changes

If you had 45 ppm of abrasive silicon in this sample, your upper engine metals (Cr/Fe/Al/Nickel), would be severely elevated. Such is not the case here....

TS
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
I would keep an eye on that lead level though! That's coming from the soft bearing overlays and is generally indicative of corrosive or chemical wear, or an oil that's much too thin for the application. It could also be tied to the parts you had replaced, but again it should drop down to 1-3 ppm over time.

TS
 

mountain lion

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
04 Jetta TDI
TooSlick,

Thanks much for the review! I had a feeling it might just be new parts - the silicon had me worried though as Blackstone assumes it's abrasive.

As for the copper and lead - I've read a couple articles and the cam threads here stating that the shell bearings for the cam (which were replaced) contain lead and copper - hopefully what I'm seeing is a result of break in since I'm only at 22k miles on the new parts. I have the cut bearings franko6 supplied which does expose copper on the top bearings. I've always used M1 TDT and in the first 4 reports, has always worked well. My original cam was in good shape, but I swapped it out during the injector work since I was in there.

All I can do now is drive more and see how things progress.

Thanks again. Best,
ML
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
TooSlick,

Thanks much for the review! I had a feeling it might just be new parts - the silicon had me worried though as Blackstone assumes it's abrasive.

As for the copper and lead - I've read a couple articles and the cam threads here stating that the shell bearings for the cam (which were replaced) contain lead and copper - hopefully what I'm seeing is a result of break in since I'm only at 22k miles on the new parts. I have the cut bearings franko6 supplied which does expose copper on the top bearings. I've always used M1 TDT and in the first 4 reports, has always worked well. My original cam was in good shape, but I swapped it out during the injector work since I was in there.

All I can do now is drive more and see how things progress.

Thanks again. Best,
ML
I was going to ask about break-in process but if you're in contact with Frank, I'm sure you broke in like he recommends. :)
 

bbexotics

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Location
albuquerque
TDI
2004 Passat,2006 Jetta, 2003 Jetta wagon, 2017 Cayman S
Get rid of Amzoil, don't believe everything you read in regards to that oil. There is no way they can compete with companies like Mobil or Shell or any major oil companies. 30 years ago my Porsche 930 blew up cause Amzoil, engine temperature broke down viscosity and the results were catastrophic. Have never used that oil since then. Porsche checked the engine themselves since car was still under warranty, so to me, I will never use . To each his own.
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
Just got my oil report back. Doesnt look good for a TDI Touareg with only 51k
I'd probably switch to VW recommended oil, run 10k (is the OCI for that motor 10k or 7k??) and see what the results look like. From what I have seen (I am by no means a guru, I'll leave TooSlick to that) the 507 spec oils seem to always be done doing their job right around 10k, at least in the 2L CRD VW motors. I don't know one way or the other on the Amsoil BUT judging from Blackstones' qualitative feedback, I'd run commonly recommended oil for the commonly recommended interval and check back.

Good luck man!
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
That amsoil 5w-30 might well be a 507 spec oil. I'd probably try a low ash 5w-40. Chrysler recently changed the oil spec on their 3.0L diesel from 5w-30 to 5w-40 due to wear issues with the 5w-30.
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
I'd probably switch to VW recommended oil, run 10k (is the OCI for that motor 10k or 7k??) and see what the results look like. From what I have seen (I am by no means a guru, I'll leave TooSlick to that) the 507 spec oils seem to always be done doing their job right around 10k, at least in the 2L CRD VW motors. I don't know one way or the other on the Amsoil BUT judging from Blackstones' qualitative feedback, I'd run commonly recommended (and well documented) oil for the commonly recommended interval and check back.

Good luck man!
That amsoil 5w-30 might well be a 507 spec oil. I'd probably try a low ash 5w-40. Chrysler recently changed the oil spec on their 3.0L diesel from 5w-30 to 5w-40 due to wear issues with the 5w-30.
Updated my post a little. :)

I figuring to get back to a known baseline to rule out issues with the vehicle. Heck, maybe give Blackstone a call just to confirm what oil, most commonly, they're universal average is based on. It might be a bit presumptuous to assume it's LL03, regardless, they are always helpful when I've needed to talk to them.

Maybe VW has OR will switch to a different spec as Chrysler but since there is so many things that could be effecting his numbers, I'd be trying to rule out an actual issue with the motor. Following VW specs and seeing where it lines up with Blackstone Universal averages and go from there is the most unscientific way I can think of to do that.

With what Turbobrick said, I'd make the "go from there" as long as the motor is much more in line with the averages, trying the Chrysler recommended spec oil at the SAME OCI as the VW OCI to see how the numbers shake out. :)
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Tootall424,

In my professional opinion, and having interpreted the results of hundreds of oil analyses over the past 23 years, you have a coolant leak that is degrading the lubricating properties of the oil and causing abnormal wear. I'd have an analysis done by another lab like Oil Analyzers that also tests for the TBN, as well as Oxidation & Nitration levels. In the meantime I'd reduce your service interval by 50%. I'm assuming this engine is DPF equipped and that's why you're using a VW 504/507 spec oil?

This Amsoil 5w-30 European Formula is on VW/Audis Approved List and works just fine. It has one of the more robust additive chemistries I've seen for a low "SAPS" oil, with a starting TBN of 8.8. Trying to fix mechanical problems by switching oils simply does not work. You need to find the root cause(s) of the issue and address those. As a general rule I would not exceed VW's recommended service interval of 10k miles, unless you "step" up service intervals gradually - say in 2k increments - supported by used oil analysis.

TS
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Tootall424,
Trying to fix mechanical problems by switching oils simply does not work.You need to find the root cause(s) of the issue and address those. As a general rule I would not exceed VW's recommended service interval of 10k miles, unless you "step" up service intervals gradually - say in 2k increments - supported by used oil analysis.
TS
I completely agree- assuming there is a mechanical problem. If coolant hasn't been disappearing, I wouldn't be convinced that coolant contamination of the oil is the issue. The aluminum wear is high, but the iron wear is about average on a per mile basis, according to Blackstone. Another thing to consider is that it doesn't take much contamination of the oil sample to skew numbers significantly when measurements are in parts per million.
 

tootall424

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Location
San Francisco, CA
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Sport
thanks guys. I honestly forgot about the oil change because my inspection service light was on also. I normally run the 10k interval. The current oil I will run for 7k and see what that does.

I plan on turning this vehicle in for buyback in the next year, so I dont know how much I should even worry about it.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
TooSlick,
Thanks much for the review! I had a feeling it might just be new parts - the silicon had me worried though as Blackstone assumes it's abrasive.
As for the copper and lead - I've read a couple articles and the cam threads here stating that the shell bearings for the cam (which were replaced) contain lead and copper - hopefully what I'm seeing is a result of break in since I'm only at 22k miles on the new parts. I have the cut bearings franko6 supplied which does expose copper on the top bearings. I've always used M1 TDT and in the first 4 reports, has always worked well. My original cam was in good shape, but I swapped it out during the injector work since I was in there.
All I can do now is drive more and see how things progress.
Thanks again. Best,
ML
You are correct, the cam bearings take time to conform. You should gradually
break the cam bearings in by increasing throttle load ( injector load) gradually.

The bearings are steel backed with a initially soft copper intermediate lay of about .013 thick. This copper conforms to the cam journal and at the same time the heat cycles gradually cycle harden the copper.

I am not sure what your injector loads are if you have replaced them, but no matter stock or not this initial copper must conform and harden gradually.

I think we have all forgotten about the cam bearing threads but i have narrowed it down to stock bearings will work fine if broken in properly and I even run the cam belt loose for the first 10,000 miles.

Oil hammer has said he sees no change in the cam bearings after 60,000 miles.
 
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