TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

[wrpercival]

Below is the URL loaded on this website. Any observations are greatly appreciated.

I'd note that the aluminum readings on my 2012 TDI were above the universal averages / high 20's until I passed 50,000 miles. At that point they dropped down into the low teens and have been reporting consistently since then.

Similar to yours, my flashpoint is running 405 F. It had been higher previously, but my driving patterns have been more short trips over the past year or so. As Blackstone has suggested to you, I think short trips may be influencing that reading.

Regarding their mention of TBN, after I completed the 30K dealer oil changes, I switched to using LiquiMoly TopTec 4200 and have had TBN readings consistently in the mid-2's on OCI's above 15K. Not suggesting there is a problem with your reading, but when the dealer did my two oil changes at 10 and 20K, both analyses came back similar to yours at around 1.7.

 

[ray96disco]

Thank you for the replies. I was a bit nervous about the TBN as it appears others get much higher numbers and mine seems a little close for comfort in comparison.


Thanks again,

 

[mk2_carat]

Hey guys. I bought this car to swap the motor into my 81 caddy. I'm not too sure on the mileage on the oil, or which oil was used, and the air filter wasn't too bad. Are these iron and silicon levels cause for alarm? Would you hesitate using it for a swap or check anything in particular before swapping it in? 263k miles btw,thanks for the help.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

I just got my oil analysis back on an extended OCI. The main concern is lead. I am going for a 15k OCI, and did this test around at 12.5k to see how things were going. Over the weekend, I went on a 1k road trip, so am now at 13.5k.
Maybe relevant info: Around 12k, I got a tune and ran lots of WOT logs. I do run higher blends of biodiesel regularly (but that is changing now that it is no longer available around me). FWIW, the car has given me the best mileage ever since the tune and a new MAF in the last 1k miles.
At this point, my plan is to continue to the 15k interval this time and test again to see what is up with the lead. Will I hurt anything by doing this? Any idea why it is so high?

Update from last analysis in August 2015 where I had high lead. This last oil analysis looks really good (10k sample, going for 15k). Don't know whether to chalk it up to the Mos2 or just the fact that I haven't done any or many WOT runs (or both). However, the Mos2 in both the Jeep Liberty CRD and my VW Golf has resulted in noticeable drops in wear metals. I think it is good stuff and I'll keep using it for piece of mind with 15k changes. Here's the 2002 Golf:
https://flic.kr/p/Now15G

 

[DerekG]

Just received my 3rd UOA for the Golf. All good news it seems.

Miles on engine- 52,237
Miles on Oil- 7,326

I towed my ~1500lb camper 3k of those miles on 2 different road trips. One to the mountains and one to the desert.

Screen Shot 2016-12-15 at 8.17.16 PM by DerekG710, on Flickr

I'm not really concerned with extending my OCI's and I plan to stick to 7,500-8,000 from now on, and I probably won't pay for anymore TBN tests because of that fact. I've gone through most of the VW 507 oils and they have all produced good results on my <10k mile OCI's. (Total, Castrol, Pentosin, M1)

 

[tikal]

UOA on PD engine with VW 507 oil and Archoil additives

Ok, there are two firsts for me in this UOA. Using a VW507 oil in a PD engine (BHW) and adding two oil additives (nano size) from Archoil (AR9100 Boron based and AR9300 ceramic based). Obviously I am not trying to draw any definitive conclusions from these three UOAs. After I change this oil (probably in the next week or so) I will continue using a VW 507 oil and do another UOA. Also I plan to do less WOT runs to hopefully reduce some wear metals such as Aluminum and maybe Chrome. Comments/feedback welcome.

 

[> Luke <]

Guys & Gals: I need basic guidance here. I've been using Blackstone Labs from day one on my 2011 Gulf DTi, with copies of all 10K oil reports. My embarrassment is that the last report indicated a spike up in "Iron", but I don't know how to post the actual report to this site for your full review. It would be considerably appreciated if one of you call guide me in adding the report to my inquiry.

My "unit/location average for Iron is 18, but the latest reading was at 41.

 

[James & Son]

Tikal,

My informed guess is the followers black coat have worn through and that is why the iron is increasing.

The mileage seems probable for this possibility.

I thought I would mention it since you have been chasing the aluminum with the boron which probably would have come down anyways once you stopped the use of MOS2 but it looks like the real problem is cam wear.

I believe the boron or boric acid in the case of the archoil and MOS2 are inert. If they are then you would have to add copious quantities to make any difference if wear surfaces are intact, since the little bit you put in would not be enough to be rubbed into the surface as this would be the only means of it to do anything.

I would pull the cam and check followers for scoring. If you see any scoring just put it back together. Sorry it is game over if that is the case as you will be on the last leg of another 50,000 miles at the most.

 

[tikal]

I appreciate the feedback to my UOA. I accept that my iron is increasing in absolute values but can we say that the iron wear rate is positively increasing?

Tikal,
My informed guess is the followers black coat have worn through and that is why the iron is increasing.
The mileage seems probable for this possibility.
I thought I would mention it since you have been chasing the aluminum with the boron which probably would have come down anyways once you stopped the use of MOS2 but it looks like the real problem is cam wear.
I believe the boron or boric acid in the case of the archoil and MOS2 are inert. If they are then you would have to add copious quantities to make any difference if wear surfaces are intact, since the little bit you put in would not be enough to be rubbed into the surface as this would be the only means of it to do anything.
I would pull the cam and check followers for scoring. If you see any scoring just put it back together. Sorry it is game over if that is the case as you will be on the last leg of another 50,000 miles at the most.

 

[James & Son]

Your right, the only thing unusal is the spike in aluminum. I doubt MOS2 caused this. The spike in aluminum was probably caused by an abrasive material.

I am suggesting that abrasive material is the black follower coating becoming very thin and fracturing a the center of the follower. This is a normal wear process but it must happen very gradually to allow the underlying steel surface to be exposed without the black fracturing.

My opinion is to go with a group III base oil such as TDT and 1 to 1 1/2 ounces of ZDDPlus. At 7500 miles do a UOA and based on the results add another 3/4 ounce to maintain 1200 to 1400 phosphorous and run it as far as the UOA tell you to based on viscosity tbn etc. TDT has a lot of magnesium for detergent so I would not drop to much below TBN 4 with that oil.

You need to go back to being conservative( higher viscosity and anti-wear) until you get a clearer picture of what is happening with the wear metals. The black coating gives a faulse reading on UOA to how well the cam is doing. You only really find out during the black coating wear through which is an unknown factor. I think a good wear through would be above 50,000 miles.

 

[tikal]

Thanks again James & Son. I need to point out (as I attempted in my added table below the Blackstone Labs results) that during the second UOA I started to do regular 'Italian tuneups' when the engine was warmed up and it would rev up to around 5000 rpm for a few seconds (quick 1,2,3 shifting). I stoped for the most part doing this practice in this last UOA going to only 4000 rpm for a short time (seconds).

Also this last UOA, with the VW 507 oil and Archoil additives, included a 4100 highway trip in the four corners area in a very hot July with the car super loaded and whenever speed limits allow going 70-80 MPH (plus plenty of mountain driving on top)!

Your right, the only thing unusal is the spike in aluminum. I doubt MOS2 caused this. The spike in aluminum was probably caused by an abrasive material.
I am suggesting that abrasive material is the black follower coating becoming very thin and fracturing a the center of the follower. This is a normal wear process but it must happen very gradually to allow the underlying steel surface to be exposed without the black fracturing.
My opinion is to go with a group III base oil such as TDT and 1 to 1 1/2 ounces of ZDDPlus. At 7500 miles do a UOA and based on the results add another 3/4 ounce to maintain 1200 to 1400 phosphorous and run it as far as the UOA tell you to based on viscosity tbn etc. TDT has a lot of magnesium for detergent so I would not drop to much below TBN 4 with that oil.
You need to go back to being conservative( higher viscosity and anti-wear) until you get a clearer picture of what is happening with the wear metals. The black coating gives a faulse reading on UOA to how well the cam is doing. You only really find out during the black coating wear through which is an unknown factor. I think a good wear through would be above 50,000 miles.

 

[James & Son]

It is not easy to get all 8 lobes to break in properly. An UOA will indicate iron wear which is essentially cam lobe nose wear and as long as it is constant that is good.

The main hurtle towards that is preventing the black coating fracturing as it becomes very thin and wears completely away. If it fractures it will score the follower preventing the oil film development and thus the follower over heats and gulls. Note: it will partially heal but will eventually fail due to poor oil film.

To prevent this I am using a very expensive PAO oil with about 20% organic ester and by-pass filter. After 22,000 kilometers it had a velocity index of 185 and the viscosity at 100C was 15.7 cst. with zero soot.

The combination of high VI and kinetic viscosity results in a iron wear of 17 parts per million over the 22,000 kilometers.

Now I have pulled the valve cover and my lobes are good with one showing some oval nose marking which i believe is micro pitting (google). This is not good but because I have no black transferr I may be ok and that lobe may still heal itself by continuing to breakin due to the black coating being still intact on the follower.

Because I had some water and fuel dilution( plugged air filter), I hope I can prevent this and this will also reduce further micro pitting allowing the nose to wear in properly.

This is how critical I think this stage is. If the micropitting does not heal, it will shear and fracture the thin DLC coating which scores the follower surface and it is game over.

 

[tikal]

^^^ Ok I will have to digest a little bit more your message. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Another important date point is that when I bought the car used at ~ 130K miles I replaced the cam with a re-profiled stage II BHW cam from Franko6 (which I beleive it is Chrome plated). The cam now has around 54,000 miles or 86,400 kms.

 

[James & Son]

^^^ Ok I will have to digest a little bit more your message. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Another important date point is that when I bought the car used at ~ 130K miles I replaced the cam with a re-profiled stage II BHW cam from Franko6 (which I beleive it is Chrome plated). The cam now has around 54,000 miles or 86,400 miles.

Ok, I just assumed you put in a cheap cam in with all the additives you playing with.
That is a totally different situation.

From what i understand Frank has had very few what you would call failures if you use the proper oil. Yes frank does't like TDT and doesn't say much about any other J4 oil even though he recommends S9000 which is equal to a J4. Also recmmends the 505.01 5w-40 which of course you already know.

If you got a expensive cam in there please explain why you are playing with additives and plan on using 507.00 although that would be useful if you can get an good UOA with that oil. To do it properly you have to run the oil for 500 miles and take a slightly used VOA and then a UOA at 10,000 to see if you can run it out further. That way you know what wear metals and adds you have from the last oil change and can determine immediately what your wear rate is.

I put the cheapest Febi cam i could find on the internet in just to find out if all the science I have read would prevent failure.

 

[tikal]

Ok, I just assumed you put in a cheap cam in with all the additives you playing with.
That is a totally different situation.

From what i understand Frank has had very few what you would call failures if you use the proper oil. Yes frank does't like TDT and doesn't say much about any other J4 oil even though he recommends S9000 which is equal to a J4. Also recmmends the 505.01 5w-40 which of course you already know.

If you got a expensive cam in there please explain why you are playing with additives and plan on using 507.00 although that would be useful if you can get an good UOA with that oil. To do it properly you have to run the oil for 500 miles and take a slightly used VOA and then a UOA at 10,000 to see if you can run it out further. That way you know what wear metals and adds you have from the last oil change and can determine immediately what your wear rate is.

I put the cheapest Febi cam i could find on the internet in just to find out if all the science I have read would prevent failure.

My main objective is to continue lowering the overall wear metal rate. I started with the indicated (by Frank) break-in procedure back in Spring 2012. I used HDEO oils until putting the Pennzoil VW 507 oil (March 2016) with a HTHS viscosity, cP of 3.68 but with the lower viscosity at colder temperatures to reduce wear when engine is cold. The Archoil ceramic/Boron nano additives are an added insurance since I had not used a VW 507 oil before. Based on my own research, VW 507 oils have been used more widely in PD engines in Europe without issues.

 

[tikal]

Also here is the VOA for the Pennzoil Ultra Euro L oil used in this last UOA (source):

Boron: 70
Silicon: 3
Sodium: 1
Calcium: 1676
Magnesium: 8
Phosphorus: 634
Zinc: 723
SUS Viscosity @ 210F: 65.4
cSt Viscosity @ 100C: 11.71
Flashpoint: 460F
TBN: 5.6

So TBN decreased only around 16% in 11,400 miles which is pretty good for any oil but more so for a VW 507 oil. I suspect this is in part due to the Archoil additives.
Having said all of this I also realize that I am dealing only with three data points spread across 54,000 miles (on the cam) and four and half years of using the Passat. I need more UOAs in the future to get a better picture of the health of the cam and the engine in general.

 

[James & Son]

Also here is the VOA for the Pennzoil Ultra Euro L oil used in this last UOA (source):
Boron: 70
Silicon: 3
Sodium: 1
Calcium: 1676
Magnesium: 8
Phosphorus: 634
Zinc: 723
SUS Viscosity @ 210F: 65.4
cSt Viscosity @ 100C: 11.71
Flashpoint: 460F
TBN: 5.6
So TBN decreased only around 16% in 11,400 miles which is pretty good for any oil but more so for a VW 507 oil. I suspect this is in part due to the Archoil additives.
Having said all of this I also realize that I am dealing only with three data points spread across 54,000 miles (on the cam) and four and half years of using the Passat. I need more UOAs in the future to get a better picture of the health of the cam and the engine in general.

The Archoil might be why the Flash dropped from 460 to 425 and yet your viscosity remained the same. All your oils seem to be ok but the additives aren't helping one bit and you know it. The only thing I can do is ignore what you put in the oil and I would say your best UOA so far is the 5w-40 Delvac.

But the 507 does have potential as the oil does not shear and has a high flash but the archoil screwed up the UOA. Now you have to start from scratch with that oil.

 

[tikal]

The Archoil might be why the Flash dropped from 460 to 425 and yet your viscosity remained the same. All your oils seem to be ok but the additives aren't helping one bit and you know it. The only thing I can do is ignore what you put in the oil and I would say your best UOA so far is the 5w-40 Delvac.

But the 507 does have potential as the oil does not shear and has a high flash but the archoil screwed up the UOA. Now you have to start from scratch with that oil.

Frankly from these UOAs it is hard to say whether the MoS2 or the nano Boron Nitride/ceramic additives did or did not help. Interesting enough there are studies that shows Boron and WS2 nanoparticles working synergistically with ZDDP (see papers from Argonne National Labs and European institutions).


I agree that from an iron wear rate perspective the best UOA so far is the Delvac 5W-40 followed by the 507 oil.

 

[MrShip]

Here's a DSG UOA at 60k km; first change interval. Out of a 2015 Golf TDI.

 

[h2oskier]

2011 Jetta TDI Blackstone Analysis 20170329 106151 6828



6828 miles on oil
106,151 miles on engine
Iron 326 (Should be 44)
Copper 12 (Should be 8)
Intercooler freeze and hydrolock around 60k miles
All regular and scheduled maintenance completed and documented
I may opt for Andrew's CP3 kit (2microntech) and do an analysis after mechanical run-in. I really won't know anything unless I pull the HPFP and look at it.
That said, is there a suspect other than the HPFP given the car's history of the intercooler freezing 40k miles prior?

 

[mr_y82]

^I will have used 2micron kits available soon. HPFP is still under warranty, so I can pull them before the buyback if needed.

Good luck!

 

[bobthefarmer]

my latest UOA with high Aluminum on BRM 2006.5 Jetta. Comments? http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/J36674_1_.pdf

Please note: 146K report was when I did my Cam change to Frank06.

 

[DerekG]

Latest UOA for the Golf. Happy Camper

oil july 2017 pic by DerekG710, on Flickr

 

[WooK]

My report shows high sodium. I run WVO in my TDI and use salt as a de-watering step. Could that have gotten into the engine oil and could that harm my engine? I also use the Delo 5w-40 and my OCI is 3k - 4k. This report was done at 3.5K

Thanks

 

[turbobrick240]

My report shows high sodium. I run WVO in my TDI and use salt as a de-watering step. Could that have gotten into the engine oil and could that harm my engine? I also use the Delo 5w-40 and my OCI is 3k - 4k. This report was done at 3.5K

Thanks

Yes, the sodium is likely coming from your fuel. WVO isn't doing your injectors any favors either.

 

[Riflesmith]

Latest UOA for the Golf. Happy Camper

oil july 2017 pic by DerekG710, on Flickr

Simply a fantastic analysis result. Congrats.

 

[TornadoRed]

My report shows high sodium. I run WVO in my TDI and use salt as a de-watering step. Could that have gotten into the engine oil and could that harm my engine? I also use the Delo 5w-40 and my OCI is 3k - 4k. This report was done at 3.5K

We've had so many years of experience with WVO in TDI engines, and those experiences are almost always bad. Short OCIs help, but they do not prevent the fuel from contaminating the engine oil -- and no matter how professionally the WVO is processed, it is still harmful when it mixes with engine oil. WVO is usually fine in indirect-injection engines, but not for our direct-injection engines.

This used-oil analysis is a warning, which should be taken seriously.

 

[James & Son]

Just got back the first run on Mobil1 TDT 5w/40 in my '15 EA288 with stage 2 "eco" tune. Very impressed, almost eerily low numbers! Going to wait till after warranty to extend change intervals.

My opinion, It looks like your motor is not designed for a thick 40 weight oil like TDT. Check out how much it has sheared. If you want to run a CJ4 oil( not a low ash oil), I would run the 5w-30 viscosity( 12cst at 100 C) with the best Noak rating available to minimize ash loading.

What is your highway/city miles in the above UOA?

 

[adjat84th]

My opinion, It looks like your motor is not designed for a thick 40 weight oil like TDT. Check out how much it has sheared. If you want to run a CJ4 oil( not a low ash oil), I would run the 5w-30 viscosity( 12cst at 100 C) with the best Noak rating available to minimize ash loading.
What is your highway/city miles in the above UOA?

The "eco" tune refers to the lack of DPF on the vehicle, thus no need for a low ash oil. The UOA in that post is 90% highway miles. Car now runs quite a bit more city, but not stop and go traffic. If the the oil had sheared too much, would wear have gone up as well?

 

[turbobrick240]

The "eco" tune refers to the lack of DPF on the vehicle, thus no need for a low ash oil. The UOA in that post is 90% highway miles. Car now runs quite a bit more city, but not stop and go traffic. If the the oil had sheared too much, would wear have gone up as well?

Based on your exceptionally low wear numbers, I'd just keep doing whatever you're doing.