TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

mxcoy

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Location
Mexico
TDI
Jetta MK4.5
why not? All 5W-40 is full synthetic. I use Rotella T6 from Wall Mart



well said!:)
Thanks Jon_slider. All I meant by saying it's not VW approved, is that it's not listed as a VW 505.01 approved oil. I have read that tons of people use Rotella and Delvac 5w-40 synthetic with great UOA results, but these two oils are extremely hard to come by in Mexico, which is why I went with Delo.

I wish I could buy Rotella or Delvac 5w-40 in mexico, I've traveled several times to the US and seen all three oils at Walmart, I just envy the price you guys pay for good oil :eek: I guess next time I visit the US I'll buy 3 or 4 jugs of Chevron Delo which should be enough for two oil changes within a 12 month period ~ 15k to 20k miles.

Thanks for your comments.
 

markman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2011 JSW TDI w/DSG; White Gold,Cornsilk Build Date 03/11
Iron level high- Should I be worried?

Ok, I got my latest results from the 2011 TDI and Iron is up along with other metals that seem to be a little higher than average:

Is there anything in particular I should be worried about? My driving is 80%+ stop n go traffic, 10 miles each way. I get it on the highway once or twice a month but not as much as I'd like.
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Markman, your wear metals aren't great, but I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. I suspect the fact that your motor is still breaking in, combined with the sub optimal driving routine is responsible. I am always surprised when people do uoa on such young motors. It doesn't seem like you rack up enough miles to justify uoa. At least from an economic standpoint. I think you will see decreasing wear metals in any future reports.
 

jon_slider

Active member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Location
California
TDI
1996 2.5 AEL TDi. 2003 Jetta TDi Wagon
My driving is 80%+ stop n go traffic, 10 miles each way.
thanks for sharing info. I am just a consumer, not a car professional in any way. So take my opinion as just a guess, that you might want to verify and confirm from other reliable sources.

imho
10 miles is a very short distance to warm up a TDi. Maybe that is why you see slighty high iron, especially with stop and go. That usage pattern is not what a TDi thrives on. It wants to get hot and roll for long miles.

I suggest you increase your driving distance to 30 miles :), or use a gasoline powered vehicle for such short runs.
 

markman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2011 JSW TDI w/DSG; White Gold,Cornsilk Build Date 03/11
Markman, your wear metals aren't great, but I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. I suspect the fact that your motor is still breaking in, combined with the sub optimal driving routine is responsible. I am always surprised when people do uoa on such young motors. It doesn't seem like you rack up enough miles to justify uoa. At least from an economic standpoint. I think you will see decreasing wear metals in any future reports.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess the $20 it costs for a UOA is not that much in the grand scheme of things so that's why I do it. I hope the metals decrease as the years roll on because I'd like to keep this car for another 10 years at least.
thanks for sharing info. I am just a consumer, not a car professional in any way. So take my opinion as just a guess, that you might want to verify and confirm from other reliable sources.
imho
10 miles is a very short distance to warm up a TDi. Maybe that is why you see slighty high iron, especially with stop and go. That usage pattern is not what a TDi thrives on. It wants to get hot and roll for long miles.
I suggest you increase your driving distance to 30 miles :), or use a gasoline powered vehicle for such short runs.
I know my drive isn't optimal but it is what it is. When I got the car I was expecting more road miles than stop n go but, at least for the time being, I'm going to be doing the same basic commute. What I really need for this commute is a Tesla :) but I can't justify the $$'s for that.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Thanks for the feedback. I guess the $20 it costs for a UOA is not that much in the grand scheme of things so that's why I do it. I hope the metals decrease as the years roll on because I'd like to keep this car for another 10 years at least.
I know my drive isn't optimal but it is what it is. When I got the car I was expecting more road miles than stop n go but, at least for the time being, I'm going to be doing the same basic commute. What I really need for this commute is a Tesla :) but I can't justify the $$'s for that.
I admire your fastidiousness. And I agree that the $20 isn't much in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure you will start seeing a drop in wear metals soon. Thanks for posting your results.
 

markman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2011 JSW TDI w/DSG; White Gold,Cornsilk Build Date 03/11
I admire your fastidiousness. And I agree that the $20 isn't much in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure you will start seeing a drop in wear metals soon. Thanks for posting your results.
I hope the next oil change sees a drop. By that point i'll be closer to 50k which seems to be the point where these things finally "break in". I really enjoy the car and as long as the HPFP doesn't blow up I think I'll have the car for quite a while.
 

rbcsaver

New member
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Location
NE PA
TDI
Audi A3
My 2011 Audi A3 has just 120,000 miles on it. When I purchased the vehicle 3.5 years ago, it had just over 19,000 miles. i drive about 30,000 (90% highway) miles a year to and from work.
I change the Castrol Professional SLX LLO3 oil and Mann filter routinely at 10,000 miles. I also have the oil professional analyzed.

See the last 2 yrs results: http://imgur.com/mFY0Vw9


"Aluminum and potassium are high again. We're honestly not sure what's causing this. As you know, potassium can show coolant, but we're not sure that's the source here since sodium is very low and the other metals are in fine shape. We do sometimes see these elements from the emissions system or the intercooler, but that's normally in newer engines. It's possible these increases show a problem since they did increase on a per mile basis compared to last time, but it's hard to say that for sure. No fuel dilution this time. Run 6,000 miles and check back."

Potassium and aluminum have doubled in the last 10 months the Aluminum was 42 and 40 (one year ago it was 21) and Potassium was 44 and 45. One year ago, that was 24.

This last sample was taken, last month, by the dealer when they changed the timing belt and water pump at 119,500 miles with about 6600 miles on the oil.

Any thoughts? Could this be wear from the HPFP?

regards,
rbcsaver
 
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jon_slider

Active member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Location
California
TDI
1996 2.5 AEL TDi. 2003 Jetta TDi Wagon
"Aluminum and potassium are high

changed the timing belt and water pump
is there aluminium in a water pump?
is there potassium in antifreeze?

if yes, how could those residues get into the oil?
wild guess:
possible leaking oil cooler…? (not sure if your motor has the little coolant filled box shaped oil cooler at the oil filter that my motor has…)

good job documenting changes
with a new water pump, you may continue to shed some aluminum, but it should not be reaching your motor oil, unless your motor oil continues to be contaminated by Potassium from the coolant..

solution is to replace the oil cooler, if its leaking...

again, wild guesses
good luck
 

billmc2010TDI

Active member
Joined
May 13, 2010
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI Sportswagen
wrong oil spec - help please

Dear Friends,

Can I get by with "Total Quartz 9000 Energy SAE 5W-40 Advanced Synthetic" oil? Supplier said he looked it up for my 2010 jetta tdi sportswagen. I only noticed after mechanic put it in that spec says VW/Audi 502.00/505.00!

Many thanks as always,
Bill
 

vanbcguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
API CF is a really old diesel rating, it totally predates things like DPF systems. Even a CJ (current) exceeds VW's ash limits, a CF won't even come close to meeting them.

Not a good oil for your engine at all.
 

billmc2010TDI

Active member
Joined
May 13, 2010
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI Sportswagen
Thank you again. Looks like a quick drain and change. And some $$ down the drain too, but well-advised. Best of luck with your TDI.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
Saint Paul (ex-San Diego)
TDI
2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red; 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver
It says "API SM/CF" and "ACEA A3/B4".
You can ignore the "API SM/CF" as that is not just an old spec but a spec that almost every engine oil meets; I can't even imagine any oil, conventional or synthetic, available in North America or Europe, that cannot meet that spec.

"ACEA A3/B4" is also an ancient specification, from the early or mid 1990s. So it's meaningless, too.

VAG 502.00/505.00 is also ancient. Lots of conventional and synthetic oils meet these specs, but that does not mean they are suitable for any of the last three generations of VW TDI engines.

For the common-rail TDIs sold in North America and Europe, the VAG 507.00 is the current specification. I cannot tell you if other engine oils will work -- they probably will, but it's possible that higher ash levels could shorten the lives of diesel particulate filters (DPF). Some people may not care, as they plan to get rid of the DPF. But it can cost several thousand dollars to replace, and the use of wrong engine oil could void the warranty on the DPF.

There is a MB spec that is almost but not quite the same as the VAG 507.00 spec; but someone else will have to identify which one it is because I don't remember. And someone else will have to report on which widely-available oils will meet this MB spec.

For VE and PD engines, synthetic 5w40 oils meeting the API CJ-4 rating work quite well, even though Volkswagen does not "approve" these oils for the PD engines.
 

foobert

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Location
San Jose
TDI
'05 Blue Jetta Wagon
Cam bearings

Howdy oil guru's

Considering the history of the PD's, it seams inevitable that I'll need a new cam and lifters before I retire the car. The last time I peaked at the cam lobes, they still had a pristine chamfer on them, so, I seem to have a fairly good cam (although, I'm due for another look). Perhaps the weak link will be my cam bearings. How high would one expect the lead to get in a UOA due to worn out cam bearings?


 

MacBuckeye

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2009 Jetta
Oil analysis from DPF deleted CR 2009 Jetta

It's been quite some time since I had my oil sent off to Black Stone Labs- almost 4 years ago. At 141K miles I decided to mod the car and go with a DPF Delete, Malone Stage 2 , and DSG tune. Car has been running great ever since. Reason for the DPF delete was due to a major turbo failure and a lot of oil going into the DPF. Just couldn't risk waiting for the DPF to crap out AND I wasn't going to spend $$$$ for a new exhaust system.

With that said, I would like to hear the "experts" chime in on the recent results. I switched to Mobil 1 ESP at the 130K mile mark and been using it ever since. Before that it was always Castrol LL03. The Moly and Boron seem high. Is that good, bad, or indifferent?

 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
There much more than that out there if you look for it. ;)
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Excessive lead/Copper/Tin from main/rod bearings is usually due to one or more of several factors:

1) running the oil much too long and having it turn acidic (ie a very low TBN). A low TBN from Blackstone Labs would be <2.0; for most other labs like Polaris <3.0 would be considered low (they use a different ASTM test protocol).

2) using an oil that's too thin for the application - this can be affected by shearing and fuel dilution. (If the oil drops down an SAE grade that's considered excessive)

3) excessive fuel dilution and/or overuse of fuel additives - these both can cause chemical/corrosive bearing wear. (Excessive fuel dilution in a TDI will typically result in a flashpoint <400F)

4) "lugging" the engine - ie up shifting at too low an rpm range. Oil pressure is directly proportional to engine rpm's, so running under low rpm's and high loads can allow the "hydrodynamic" oil film between the crankshaft and bearings to be compromised.

5) Normal engine wear which very gradually affects the bearing clearances and results in marginal oil pressure. (Going up one SAE grade normally solves this condition in a high mileage engine.)

6) ingestion of dirt (silicon) directly into the crankcase due to a leak in the PCV system or a cracked vacuum hose. If this is happening you may see high bearing (Pb/Cu/Sn) wear, but upper engine metals (Cr/Ni/Al/Fe) may be normal.


Note that high soot (insoluble) levels don't have much if any affect on bearing wear since the soot particles are much smaller than bearing clearances. However, high soot will directly impact ring/cylinder and valve train wear.
 
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SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
Excessive lead/Copper/Tin from main/rod bearings is usually due to one or more of several factors:

1) running the oil much too long and having it turn acidic (ie a very low TBN). A low TBN from Blackstone Labs would be <2.0; for most other labs like Polaris <3.0 would be considered low (they use a different ASTM test protocol).

2) using an oil that's too thin for the application - this can be affected by shearing and fuel dilution. (If the oil drops down an SAE grade that's considered excessive)

3) excessive fuel dilution and/or overuse of fuel additives - these both can cause chemical/corrosive bearing wear. (Excessive fuel dilution in a TDI will typically result in a flashpoint <400F)

4) "lugging" the engine - ie up shifting at too low an rpm range. Oil pressure is directly proportional to engine rpm's, so running under low rpm's and high loads can allow the "hydrodynamic" oil film between the crankshaft and bearings to be compromised.

5) Normal engine wear which very gradually affects the bearing clearances and results in marginal oil pressure. (Going up one SAE grade normally solves this condition in a high mileage engine.)

6) ingestion of dirt (silicon) directly into the crankcase due to a leak in the PCV system or a cracked vacuum hose. If this is happening you may see high bearing (Pb/Cu/Sn) wear, but upper engine metals (Cr/Ni/Al/Fe) may be normal.


Note that high soot (insoluble) levels don't have much if any affect on bearing wear since the soot particles are much smaller than bearing clearances. However, high soot will directly impact ring/cylinder and valve train wear.
Wow, welcome back!! You've been missed around here.

I'm one of the high lead cases: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4772383&postcount=3274. I did a retest at 15k and it didn't go up appreciably, so I'm hoping it was just a particle streak: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4840986&postcount=25
 

Wankel7

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
TooSlick - Thoughts on a Blackstone result showing 14 for nickel for a ALH engine?
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
SHF,

The oil looks pretty clean. More likely just the WOT running after you got the tune. I'd expect the Pb to return to normal next time around. Blackstone loves their "particle streak" theory, but I think it's a fairly rare occurence since the oil has to go thru the filter first.

I've seen a number of TDI's running 15k intervals on the 5w-40, HD diesel oils. So that shouldn't be an issue with a good running engine.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Wankel,

Was that the only elevated metal? There aren't too many places where nickel is used. It's an alloying element in stainless steel, which can be used for the valves. But in that case you'd also see high chrome and iron. I'm not up on the metallurgy of the turbo bearings, but that's a possibility too.
 

Wankel7

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Wankel,

Was that the only elevated metal? There aren't too many places where nickel is used. It's an alloying element in stainless steel, which can be used for the valves. But in that case you'd also see high chrome and iron. I'm not up on the metallurgy of the turbo bearings, but that's a possibility too.
Here is the UOA....I am coming close to another change so I will update then...

Thank you for looking :)

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=108063&title=uoa&cat=500
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Wankel,

That's very perplexing....The oil looks to be in very good shape and contaminants are low. The nickel could be coming from the turbo bearings, but I'd expect to see some other abnormalities in the testing. I'd just test every 10k miles and keep an eye on it. A stand alone elevation of nickel is very unusual and there isn't enough Cr or Fe to indicate wear of the valves or valve guides. This is normally accompanied by higher levels of silicon.

Sometimes using a different oil for the first time can cause a spike in wear metals, but it's usually the softer Cu and Pb alloys that are affected. You see this a lot with Redline oil for example.

This engine has very low miles for a 2003 model. If it sits around not being driven for long periods of time that can result in some higher than normal, dry startup wear.

TS
 
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