TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

TDI in MT

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Montana, USA
TDI
none, sold it.
That is an excellent UOA for an almost-new 2003 TDI. You can easily extend the oil change interval to 10k miles with Mobil 1 TDT, or even longer if necessary.
"almost-new 2003 TDI" :) Believe it or not I bought it in March 2013 with 89k on it!

A 10k interval is what I usually run. For some reason, I put about 12k on the last oil.

Regarding the tester's comments: It is not true that the ALH engines "have issues with premature cam lobe wear." He is clearly thinking of the PD engines which were available in the US beginning with the 2004 model year.
That's what I thought too. I'm not going to worry about it.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
TDI IN MT,
I'm guessing you're doing lots of long trip driving out there in Montana? The key for you will be proper winterizing of the fuel to prevent gelling. I'd also highly recommend using a cetane boost additive in sub freezing weather. Amsoil makes an excellent cetane boost, although I'm sure there are others.

Your oil change intervals are going to be limited by the oil filter capacity and durability, rather than the oil , under the driving conditions that produced this excellent report. The oil is good for another 10k miles. I'd also make sure the insolubles are <1.0% at the end of the service interval.

TS
 

TDI in MT

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Montana, USA
TDI
none, sold it.
TDI IN MT,
The key for you will be proper winterizing of the fuel to prevent gelling.
That's absolutely necessary. The car simply won't start with standard #2 winter diesel (standard as in "without Power Service white bottle") if the temp is below 0 F. Still don't know why. Glow plugs work, OEM battery was installed in December. It starts fine when it's warmer outside. Just a few months ago I noticed one local station that sells 50/50 #1/#2 diesel mix in the winter. I might try that, but one tank will probably cost more than a bottle of Power Service.

I'd also highly recommend using a cetane boost additive in sub freezing weather. Amsoil makes an excellent cetane boost, although I'm sure there are others.
I'm not much of an additive user. I use it in the winter because I have to, otherwise I'd rather not bother.
 
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Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG, 2010 JSW TDI 6MT
That's absolutely necessary. The car simply won't start with standard #2 winter diesel (standard as in "without Power Service white bottle") if the temp is below 0 F. Still don't know why. Glow plugs work, OEM battery was installed in December. It starts fine when it's warmer outside. Just a few months ago I noticed one local station that sells 50/50 #1/#2 diesel mix in the winter. I might try that, but one tank will probably cost more than a bottle of Power Service.



I'm not much of an additive user. I use it in the winter because I have to, otherwise I'd rather not bother.
Try this mix, year round if you can deal with it. 2oz of Howes Meaner Kleener (cetane boost and cleaner) mixed with 8oz of Howes Anti-gel and lubricant. Works great for me, I specifically fill with standard D2 in the winter because I know the mix is good to go. Cetane boost is always a welcome thing and since I have 2009 the lubricity is essential.

I use a small funnel to fill a long neck 12oz bottle with this mix. 1 line at the 2oz mark and another at the 10oz mark. I usually refill it while I'm putting fuel in at the station.

Good luck man!

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d2freeman

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Location
NC
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
Sorry, I did not see the total miles, just the miles at the sample.
Thanks
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011; sold 2023) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
This may be a "dumb" question but if your initial sample has 127ppm of aluminum, and your last sample has only 36ppm, where did the 91ppm go that was there at the initial sample?
I'm not sure I understand the question, so this may be a dumb answer. He changed the oil 5 times. The aluminum in the readings was flushed out with each oil change and his engine was not wearing aluminum metals as fast with subsequent changes so the number eventually dropped to 36ppm on last change (presumably the car was being broke in so the number continued to go down).
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
You have to normalize the data and think in terms of ppm/1000 miles of use. Then you can see how the wear rates are trending. Iron wear tends to track most directly with the miles on the sample, but other metals like Al and Cr do as well. Basically any part of the engine were abrasive or cohesive wear are the dominant mechanisms. Corrosive/chemical wear of lead and copper based alloys does not tend to track mileage. A spike in one of these points to a mechanical issue, or operator error - using too thin an oil; running it too long; lugging the engine; overuse of fuel additives.

TS
 

Todd_y

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Location
Vancouver Island
TDI
2012 Golf Highline mt
Update: new sample (green "A") shows marked improvement. Fe is down, Al is down, this oil had 7500 km on it. I know the first sample says 5w40, but it was 5w30 I assume.

Here's a theory: The first (yellow "C") sample, was the oil that was in it when purchased at 30000 km. I don't think the dealer changed the oil for the 30000 km service. We received paperwork that all of the 30K service had been done, as this was a VW certified used vehicle. What do you guys think? Was my first sample actually run from 15k to 45k???

Also, for only 7500km, the V100 seems low. Should it be over 10 for this oil?

Anyway, it is good news to me, as I was ready to dump the car if this sample came back without improvement. I am going to prepare a case for VW Canada and try to get them to offer me an extended warranty since there is some doubt here whether the oil actually got changed at 30k by the dealer before we bought the car.

What do you think?

 
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TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Todd,

You may be right about the previous lack of maintenance. The engine looks fine now, but it will take several oil changes to wash all the extra metallic residue out.

It's normal for multi grade oils to first thin out a bit from shearing and fuel dilution, then to slowly thicken back up due to soot, oxidation and evaporation. So the viscosity just below 10 Cst is perfectly normal.
 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
Update: new sample (green "A") shows marked improvement. Fe is down, Al is down, this oil had 7500 km on it. I know the first sample says 5w40, but it was 5w30 I assume.

Here's a theory: The first (yellow "C") sample, was the oil that was in it when purchased at 30000 km. I don't think the dealer changed the oil for the 30000 km service. We received paperwork that all of the 30K service had been done, as this was a VW certified used vehicle. What do you guys think? Was my first sample actually run from 15k to 45k???

Also, for only 7500km, the V100 seems low. Should it be over 10 for this oil?

Anyway, it is good news to me, as I was ready to dump the car if this sample came back without improvement. I am going to prepare a case for VW Canada and try to get them to offer me an extended warranty since there is some doubt here whether the oil actually got changed at 30k by the dealer before we bought the car.

What do you think?

a free warranty for a perfectly good running vehicle? from VW Canada? I think you have more chances of winning the BC Lottery. Have fun!
You may get a FREE LOF.....Maybe...Sorry but you are completely wasting your time but go at it...please give us the results.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
It's normal for multi grade oils to first thin out a bit from shearing and fuel dilution, then to slowly thicken back up due to soot, oxidation and evaporation. So the viscosity just below 10 Cst is perfectly normal.
I'm not sure I agree with this regarding today's shear-stable 507.00/229.51/LL04 oils.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Bob,

I think there's a clear possibility this lab isn't correctly testing for fuel dilution. Look at the viscosity of the previous sample, which is down in the SAE 20wt range.

I'd agree that the VW. 507.00 oils are more shear stable than earlier 5w-40 formulations - by design.

Ted
 

Todd_y

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Location
Vancouver Island
TDI
2012 Golf Highline mt
I just noticed that the second sample has NT (not tested) for fuel, yet they still give a value of "0" for fuel dilution... I will be calling the Finning lab about this.

Thanks for the advice, all. VW canada sold this car as "certified pre owned", so I am going to try to get some kind of remedy for the nastiness of the oil that came out of it after the recommended interval. Unless they have some kind of proof via a scan of each bottle used or other documentation that proves the oil was changed, I may be able to grind them somewhat.

Great site, and thanks again to all the time you guys put into this oil analysis thread.
 
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TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Todd,

You do seem to be having some fuel dilution issues. Are you using a biodiesel blend? The higher flash point of biodiesel can contribute to fuel dilution, particular in colder climates.

Thanks,

TS
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Bob,

Those are perfectly acceptable results, ie a viscosity > 11.0 Cst.
A 5w40 that starts at ~13.5 cSt down to ~11 cSt. That went from a near-middle SAE 40 down to a middle SAE 30 i.e. out of grade. Flashpoint doesn't suggest much or any fuel.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Bob,

Yes a 0w-40/5w-40 oil will shear due to the presence of polymeric thickeners, ie VI modifiers. This is the same base stock blend as the ESP/5w-30, but with probably double the polymer (1.0% vs 0.5%) blended in. That's how they get from 12.0 to 13.7 Cst.

Most European oils are specifically designed to shear down in service. This maintains fuel efficiency over long service intervals and offsets oxidative/evaporative thickening. It looks bad but doesn't affect engine life. (The Mobil 1/0w-40 is the poster child for this type of viscometric behavior in turbocharged, European gas engines)

Ted
 

Todd_y

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Location
Vancouver Island
TDI
2012 Golf Highline mt
Todd,

You do seem to be having some fuel dilution issues. Are you using a biodiesel blend? The higher flash point of biodiesel can contribute to fuel dilution, particular in colder climates.

Thanks,

TS
Nothing but Husky Diesel MAX has gone into this car since I bought it. The climate here is comparable to Bellingham, WA- very few days that are below freezing. Some info from another thread on this fuel via a quick search:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=397744

This is the website describing the lab equipment and testing:

http://www.finning.ca/Services/Mach...ance/Fluid_Analysis/Tour_the_Lab/Default.aspx

Those of you who know a bunch about this stuff, how does this lab compare to others? Finning is an ISO 9001 company, they test samples from literally tens of millions of dollars worth of heavy equipment for their clients, I was thinking it was a pretty reliable full-service lab... anyone have any thoughts on these guys?

Maybe I will test the next sample with a different lab. Anyone with suggestions about test kits in Canada?
 

JdC Machine

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Cypress, CA
TDI
'13 Passat TDI SEL
I sent oil samples to Blackstone Labs last week. One of them being used engine oil and the other being fresh/virgin Castrol Edge Pro LL03 5w-30 full synthetic to have a comparison for the next UOA. They listed the used oil as the same Castrol Edge that I filled it with. I don't know what kind of oil the engine was filled with from the factory. Does anybody know? Not that it matters now, as it will be filled with Castrol Edge from now on.

The analysis results:

2013 Passat TDI @ 10,009 miles.


Castrol Edge Pro LL03 5w-30 Full Synthetic
 

BCRacing24

Active member
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Location
Central IL
TDI
2012 VW Jetta 2.0T TDI\DSG
The analysis results:

2013 Passat TDI @ 10,009 miles.



This is exactly why everyone should change their oil on a new vehical @ 5,000 then 10,000 & then every 10k mi thereafter..... Why on Earth the mfg suggest or a individual would wait for 10k mi on their first oil change is beyond me :confused:

Thanks you JdC for posting the data :D
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (retired); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (sold)
This is exactly why everyone should change their oil on a new vehical @ 5,000 then 10,000 & then every 10k mi thereafter..... Why on Earth the mfg suggest or a individual would wait for 10k mi on their first oil change is beyond me :confused:
Thanks you JdC for posting the data :D
There was nothing wrong with the used oil in that test result - it still had good levels of anti-wear additives, acid-neutralizing additives, and detergent additives. The viscosity was okay for a 30-weight oil. After 10k miles it was still doing its job, protecting that engine. So changing it after only the first 5k miles would have been a waste, even if VWoA is providing a few free oil changes. Once the free ones have been used up, the owner pays.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Oil analysis measures solid particles less than 10 um (microns), as well as dissolved metallic ions. Even though a test sample from a new engines seems loaded with wear debris, there's really very little concern about having abrasive particles circulating throughout the engine. If folks didn't test the factory fill oil they'd never have any reason for concern or notice any affect on engine performance. I honestly question the ROI of even doing oil analysis for the first 30,000 miles of any TDI Diesel engine from any of the European manufacturers?

It takes an extraordinarily long time for these engines to break in (a very good thing) and develop a stable wear pattern. I've evaluated literally hundreds of these test results over the past fifteen years and I'd be hard pressed to find anything amiss in any, very low mileage, TDI engine. There is just too much "noise" from the typical break in profile.

TS
 

KS_Jetta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Location
Central Kansas
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE 6 Speed Manual
First analysis at 39787 Miles. 2013 Passat TDI 6 Sp Manual, Castrol 507.00 oil from Dealer's last free oil change, 9700 miles on the oil, mid sample from pan. I have switched to Total INEO 507.00 oil due to excellent results using Total (Elf) in my '06 Jetta. I have that sample ready to go and will post once I get the results back. I put around 50,000 miles per year on my car and no trips are less than 50 miles round trip.

Comments:
RANDY: A 10K mile interval isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it's only beneficial if wear metals are in good shape. Aluminum read high next to universal averages, which show typical wear for this type of VW engine after about 5,600 miles on the oil. Aluminum is typically from the pistons, but it can be from the
bearings too. In this case, some of it is probably from the emission system, but we can't rule out excess wear at the other parts. The TBN was 3.0 - lots of active additive remaining. 1.0 or less is low. Try using 9,000 miles next and check back for another look.

Aluminum 72
Chromium 3
Iron 26
Copper 6
Lead 0
Tin 5
Moly 2
Nickel 2
Manganese 1
Silver 0
Titanium 1
Potassium 15
Boron 2
Silicon 2
Sodium 0
Calcium 1620
Magnesium 8
Phosphorous 760
Zinc 920
Barium 0

SUS Visc. 64.4
cST Visc. 11.45
Flashpoint 455
Fuel% <0.5
Antifreeze 0.0
Water 0.0
Insolubles% 0.2
TBN 3.0


While the TBN looks good, the slightly low viscosity ans elevated aluminum and borderline Iron concern me a little. I'm looking forward to see if there is a difference in the Total INEO sample
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
I'm too lazy to do the digging - are we seeing crazy high Al from other new Passat TDIs? Everything else looks GREAT.

TS
 

KS_Jetta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Location
Central Kansas
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE 6 Speed Manual
I'm too lazy to do the digging - are we seeing crazy high Al from other new Passat TDIs? Everything else looks GREAT.

TS
With over 200 pages dedicated to UOA's on all TDI engines, I'm with you - I am sorry, but I don't have the drive to wade through every post to see Al values specific to NMS Passats either. The few UOA's I did see showed numbers at or above my Al numbers. UOA's supported running 10,000 miles per oil change on my '06 Jetta. Driving 50k miles per year, I really want to be able to do the same on my Passat.
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG, 2010 JSW TDI 6MT
With over 200 pages dedicated to UOA's on all TDI engines, I'm with you - I am sorry, but I don't have the drive to wade through every post to see Al values specific to NMS Passats either. The few UOA's I did see showed numbers at or above my Al numbers. UOA's supported running 10,000 miles per oil change on my '06 Jetta. Driving 50k miles per year, I really want to be able to do the same on my Passat.
Well, TooSlick does usually respond to each posted UOA and is a resident authority, specifically in this thread so he's earned the right to be too lazy. :cool:

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