TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Please post your used oil lab analyses results here. Hutchman is working on a UOA website where we will be able to input and all the values the lab returns and run reports, view results and search using many different criteria. It's going to be sweet :D. Once it's online a link to it will reside right here - the first post of this thread.

In the meantime, instead of everyone starting new threads for every UOA they get back or sticking their UOA in other oil threads where it might get lost, let's all post UOA data here.

Myself and others will do our best to help you interpret your used oil analyses results, and if you already know what your results mean please still post them here to add to our knowledge base.

Thanks and Cheers!
 

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
hutchmans's most recent UOA:



i don't know why the soot is at this level after only 10k miles. if you still have the original air filter in place you could try changing it. how many miles are on the current fill of 506.01? i'd stick with 10k OCIs until the soot drops a bit. your engine will still be wearing in for awhile, my guess is that the Fe level will drop in future UOAs.
 
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hutchman

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Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Location
Virginia
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI Pkg 1, 5 Spd, Graphite Blue / 2002 Jetta GLS, Black w/tan leather
The 2006 A5 has about 33k miles on it now. It turned one year old first week of Sept.! I think I'm going to go ahead and change the air filter early.

I'm doing 10K changes right now on the A5 due to warranty.

Just changed the oil in the 2002 A4 today and will be sending off the first test of the 0W30 Full-Tech.

It will only be a 5K Mile sample due to changing the cam, lifters and a bunch of other stuff. Doing two 5k OCI's then will go back to 10+k with 506.01.

I had to add .5 L of Mobil 0W40 to the A4 due to changing out my oil/coolant heat exchanger to the larger unit and didn't have enough Elf Full-Tech on hand :(. Hopefully that won't throw off the results too bad.

I'm off active duty now ... 13 months of being on orders ended 30 SEP so I'm back to work in Lynchburg .... won't be racking up the miles I was.
 

hutchman

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Sep 6, 2005
Location
Virginia
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2006 Jetta TDI Pkg 1, 5 Spd, Graphite Blue / 2002 Jetta GLS, Black w/tan leather
UOA on Elf Solaris LLX 5W30 504/507.00

This is the UOA of the Elf Solaris LLX 5w30 507.00 that I had in my 2002 A4 at the time I did my TB an all the engine work. The first UOA on this car what shortly after I got it and it had ran Shell Rotella-T.

In addition to the TB/water pump, I replaced cam, lifters, added PP520's, pulled the head and had it hot tanked, new valve stem seals, lap job, new head gasket, ARP head bolts, new turbo oil cooler line, new oil/coolant heat exchanger (the big one), DG RP, EGR cooler delete kit, CCV mod, and last but not least RC3 Euro.

So ... this UOA had interesting things in it like ARP head bolt lube and Permatex Ultra Assemble lube ...



Who knows what effect this "extra stuff" had on the UOA.

Plus 10k miles after cleaning my intake ... when I tore the engine down this is what my EGR/intake looked like AGAIN:




That dent at 7 o'clock in the picture above is my finger pressed into the soft gooo. Now you see why I did some of the above mods. Now homie doesn't have to play the intake clog game anymore. ;)

Here is the not-so-great UOA that was taken about 300 miles after I got humpty back together again:



I just sent off a 5k mile UOA on Full-Tech so I hope it looks better than the one above. I'll post it as soon as I get it back.
 
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SUNRG

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Roanoke, VA
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None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
the A5 30k UOA above and this A5 25k UOA are showing very similar Fe wear rates 8.54 CRV 0w-30, 9.60 AFL 5w-40 during the same OCI 20-30k.

i think both samples are fine as these engines will continue to wear-in for another 30k+.

TBN on both UOAs is lower than we're used to seeing - it'll be interesting to see what subsequent UOAs in these vehicles show...

dhdenney
Veteran Member

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kentucky


Here we go. Next UOA for Amsoil. This time I topped off with 1/2 qt and left the oil in. Below are the previous numbers next to the new ones. I hope this stuff levels off and the TBN holds up. Not sure why the big drop on this one. Fuel this time was nearly all B10 or B20 depending on which I could get. I can only think of one time where I filled up with 100% D2.

Miles 19952 24954

Iron 42 48
Chromium 2 3
Lead 3 3
Copper 7 6
Tin 0 0
Aluminum 4 7
Nickel 0 0
Silver 0 0
Silicon 7 5
Boron 40 46
Sodium 0 0
Magnesium 18 17
Calcium 1910 1563
Barium 0 0
Phosphorus 809 785
Zinc 990 954
Molybendum 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Vanadium 0 0
Potassium 0 0
Fuel <1% <1%
VIS @ 40c N/A N/A
VIS @ 100c 12.30 12.91
Water 0 0
Soot .6 .5
Coolant Neg Neg

Add test
TBN 5.20 3.66
Oxid 7 6
Nitr 8 14
F-soot .69 .50
Change yes no

No corrective action required both times.

__________________
2006 Jetta TDI, pkg. 0, campanella white, best 705.3 MPT, Amsoil AFL
1994 Pontiac Trans Am, 396 stroker
 

dabear95

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Joined
Sep 26, 2002
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2002 Golf GLS, Silver
PD's Only or ALH as well?

My last two, immediatly after I changed my oil all of my modifications were performed (the 9/21/06 sample was with the mods). Delvac 5w40...



Jason
 

SUNRG

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Joined
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Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
dabear95 said:
PD's Only or ALH as well? Jason
All TDIs :D

Your UOA looks good. I saw it over at BITOG too and I think 10k+ OCIs will be perfect for your TDI using D1. TS suggested (in another thread) that a good upper soot limit for 1.9L TDIs is 1.0% - and even with your mods your TDI should stay at or below 1.0% over 10k. D1 can easily handle soot levels that exceed 1% but IMHO 1% is a good, conservative OCI flag.

cheers!
 

SUNRG

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Location
Roanoke, VA
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dhdenney - i just wanted to add that i do NOT think the TBN loss on your most recent sample is a result of B10-B20 use.

brock - i like this lab's analyses layout.

your Fe wear rate is higher than i'd expect to see in a 10k Mobil D1 UOA with 50k on an ALH engine. actualy the Cr, Al, Pb and Cu are all on the high side. Si is low, indicating that dirt injestion via the air intake system is probably not the cause of this wear.

these are by no means horroble results - just higher than average wear for D1 in an ALH with 50k miles. this demonstrates that even D1 UOA results vary from below average to above average wear.

any mods to this engine? what is your oil sampling technique?
 
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SUNRG

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Joined
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Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
dabear95 said:
SUNRG,
No biodiesel use here. I have no retail locations near my home.


Jason
oops - i meant to type dhdenney. (above post corrected).
 

Brock_from_WI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Green Bay, WI USA
TDI
2003 wagon
Sunrg, I drain from the bottom every other change and topside change the other times. I take the sample from jug I drained, probably not the best method? The only other mod really is an Old Navy CCV puck. I do have a 11 mile commute to and from work so I have a LOT of short trips and in winter I am lucky if I get the engine up to 150F, would that make a difference? Although my wife works 45 miles away and also takes this car. But she only works one day a week.

I am considering switching to Elf CRV oil, I was thinking the “thinner” oil might be better for my short trips, would that help or hurt my situation?

Thanks!
 

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Brock_from_WI said:
Sunrg, I drain from the bottom every other change and topside change the other times. I take the sample from jug I drained, probably not the best method?
no. IMHO this collection method will not yield lab results that are consistent and representative of your oil condition.

the following is the oil sampling procedure i recommend:

I am considering switching to Elf CRV oil, I was thinking the “thinner” oil might be better for my short trips, would that help or hurt my situation? Thanks!
since your soot levels are very low, if this were my vehicle and i lived in wisconsin, and i was subjecting it to frequent cold (very) starts - i personally would give ELF Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01 a try.

to reduce inherited contaminants to a bare minimum, i personally would do an early change on your existing oil using this method:
  • drain oil via the drain plug, and
  • vaccuum extract oil from the oil filter housing, oil cooler and all the plumbing and crannies accessible with the oil filter removed, and
  • use Motul Engine Clean (a motor oil / engine flush)
i would also install an ECS Tuning magnetic drain plug during the oil change process if you are not already using an ECS or Metalnerd magnetic drain plug.


cheers!
 

DL7265

Active member
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Location
Frisco, TX
TDI
2006 TDI Shadow Blue PK2 DSG
SUNRG said:
Please post your used oil lab analyses results here. Hutchman is working on a UOA website where we will be able to input and all the values the lab returns and run reports, view results and search using many different criteria. It's going to be sweet :D. Once it's online a link to it will reside right here - the first post of this thread.

In the meantime, instead of everyone starting new threads for every UOA they get back or sticking their UOA in other oil threads where it might get lost, let's all post UOA data here.

Myself and others will do our best to help you interpret your used oil analyses results, and if you already know what your results mean please still post them here to add to our knowledge base.

Thanks and Cheers!
I just got my first 5K results from Blackstone. I would post it here if i knew how ??

DL
 

volmaniac

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Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Location
McFadden's Ford, Stones River NMP M'boro, TN
TDI
02 Golf GLS
GC German Castrol 0w30 & D1 5w40 2002 VW Golf TDI

volmaniac said:
GC German Castrol 0w30 8919 mi 2002 VW Golf TDI

Vehicle type: 2002 VW Golf ALH Engine
Oil type: German Castrol 0w30 batch 04026….(Green!)
Miles on vehicle: 79,045
Miles on oil: 8,919
Months on the oil: March 17 2006 – July 01 2006 (sample date)
Oil Sump volume: 4 L
Oil added: none
Air Filter: OEM paper, installed at 60,000 miles
Engine Mods: PP520 nozzles, CAT fuel filter (replaced at 60000 mi), Old Navy CCV device
Engine output: about 107 HP, 175 ft-lbs (from the nozzle supplier’s website dyno)
Fuel: first 3K D2, 3K to 5K- ulsd, 5K to 10K B99. Averaged about 48 mpg.
Driving style: daily 35 – 40 mile each way commute, mostly interstate at 0 to 80 mph (70 to 80 mph whenever possible). Climate: 40 to 95 F. I took the sample a little early since I changed the timing belt and didn't want to contaiminate the sample with the valve cover off.

Iron: 50 36 (GC-0w30 M1-5w40)
Chromium:1 2
Lead: 3 - 2
Copper: 2 - 3
Tin: 0 0
Aluminum: 3 5
Silicon: 14 5
Potassium: 0 2
Sodium: 0 3

Fuel: Neg Neg
Water: Neg Neg
Glycol: Neg Neg
Visc @ 100c: 11.9 13.2
Soot: 90 99
Oxidation: 38 47
Sulfonation: 0 0

"no problems, oil suitable for continued use"

Analysis by CAT/Thompson Machinery, Lavergne, TN.

links:

my previous uoa with M1 5w40

truman's GC 0w30 uoa thread
here is mine from another thread
 

SUNRG

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Roanoke, VA
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volmaniac said:
here is mine from another thread
what oil do you have in now? what sampling technique do you use? what oil change method?

since the Si went from 5 to 14, if it were my car, i would check the entire air intake system for leaks and consider changing the air filter out for an OEM type A with the pre-filter membrane.

note: i personally only open my airbox to change the filter, never to check it. and i do this to coincide with an oil/filter change - i.e. take oil sample to send to lab, then change air filter (and fuel filter if needed), then drive the car around the block, then change the oil. this way, any contaminants inadvertently introduced into the oil during the air and fuel filter changes are removed when the oil is drained.

cheers!
 
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volmaniac

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Location
McFadden's Ford, Stones River NMP M'boro, TN
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02 Golf GLS
[voice=Roseanne Rosannadanna]

Mr. Richard Feder of Fort Lee, New Jersey writes:

SUNRG said:
what oil do you have in now? what sampling technique do you use? what oil change method?

since the Si went from 5 to 14, if it were my car, i would check the entire air intake system for leaks and consider changing the air filter out for an OEM type A with the pre-filter membrane.

note: i personally only open my airbox to change the filter, never to check it. and i do this to coincide with an oil/filter change - i.e. take oil sample to send to lab, then change air filter (and fuel filter if needed), then drive the car around the block, then change the oil. this way, any contaminants inadvertently introduced into the oil during the air and fuel filter changes are removed when the oil is drained.

cheers!
ya sure gota lota questions for a guy from new jersey.

oil now is m1 5w40, about 8000 miles into this oci. for both samples, i used a new tube with a 2oz syringe to suck out of the pan through the dipstick tube, but i did not follow the official sunrg oil sampling procedures and probably was close to the bottom of the pan with the tube. i did prerinse the sample jar with oil though. i promise to follow official procedures in the future. oil change is pela 100 percent including sucking out the oil in the oil filter housing.

as for the silicon value, i am trying to follow the advice from my musical cousin carlos santana rosannadana and not panic. i had cleaned the engine in preparation of the 80k timing belt change so i may have flushed some dirt in somehow. when i resample if it is still high i will recheck the box, connections, etc. i don't open the box either except to change the oem paper filter, i pull the box intact to clean the snow screen.

:)
 
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volmaniac

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Oct 20, 2003
Location
McFadden's Ford, Stones River NMP M'boro, TN
TDI
02 Golf GLS
Vehicle type: 2002 VW Golf ALH Engine
Oil type: Mobil 1 5w40 (previous 2 samples were german castrol 0w30 & m1 5w40)
Miles on vehicle: 89830
Miles on oil: 9910
Months on the oil: July 14 2006 to November 11 2006 (sample date)
Oil Sump volume: 4 L
Oil added: none
Air Filter: OEM paper, installed at 60,000 miles
Engine Mods: PP520 nozzles, CAT fuel filter (replaced at 60000 mi), Old Navy CCV device
Engine output: about 107 HP, 175 ft-lbs (from the nozzle supplier’s website dyno)
Fuel: first 6K B99, 6K to 105K- B20 + ulsd. Averaged about 48 mpg.
Driving style: daily 35 – 40 mile each way commute, mostly interstate at 0 to 80 mph (70 to 80 mph whenever possible). Climate: 35 to 95 F.

Sampling method: New bottle with 6 oz syringe, engine hot, new tubing inserted to depth of the dipstick for sampling with a 45 deg angled tip, rinsed sample bottle three times with engine oil then collected sample for lab (tdiclub sample spec compliant to the best of my abilities).

Iron: 29 50 36 (M1-5w40 GC-0w30 M1-5w40)
Chromium:1 1 2
Lead: 6 3 2
Copper: 3 2 3
Tin: 0 0 0
Aluminum: 2 3 5
Silicon: 3 14 5
Potassium: 2 1 2
Sodium: 0 0 3

Fuel: NoData Neg Neg
Water: Neg Neg Neg
Glycol: Neg Neg Neg
Visc @ 100c: 13.3 11.9 13.2
Soot: 126 (0.66%) 90 99
Oxidation: 47 38 47
Sulfonation: 31 0 0

"no problems, oil suitable for continued use"

Analysis by CAT/Thompson Machinery, Lavergne, TN.

the lead jumped out at me as being high, and i would have thought the soot would be lower with the ulsd and biodiesel usage.
 
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SUNRG

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Roanoke, VA
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Si looks great, wear metals are good. re: Pb - i'd wait to see if the Pb trends upward on the next UOA - my bet is that it won't. viscosity is lower than i would have expected, and soot is higher - in general these two move slowly up together - i.e. a viscosity drop and soot rise is odd.

Sampling method: New bottle with 6 oz syringe, engine hot, new tubing inserted to depth of the dipstick for sampling with a 45 deg angled tip, rinsed sample bottle three times with engine oil then collected sample for lab (tdiclub sample spec compliant to the best of my abilities).
:D too funny. you obviously do a fair bit of oil sampling, so i hereby authorize you to purchase an oil sampling pump for yourself for Christmas. cost will be a measly $20-25 - it's worth it and you deserve it!

cheers!
 

volmaniac

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Location
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SUNRG said:
you obviously do a fair bit of oil sampling, so i hereby authorize you to purchase an oil sampling pump for yourself for Christmas. cost will be a measly $20-25 - it's worth it and you deserve it!

cheers!
well the golf does celebrate its third birthday this week, so maybe a fancy oil sampling pump would be a good present! (the navi i just put in was for me :) ).

i am a little p'od at the lab right now, they initially thought this sample was for from our v6 passat and took forever to get me the results. the lead may be due to lab error.

Dave
 

JB05

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Il.USA
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No TBN? I would think this to be a critical factor of any UOA.
JB
 

SUNRG

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Location
Roanoke, VA
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None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
JB05 said:
No TBN? I would think this to be a critical factor of any UOA.
JB
TBN is becoming a non-issue (no fuel sulfur = no sulfuric acid to effect TBN). even the new oils with starting TBNs of 6-7 are showing most of that left after 10k+ OCIs...
 

AndyH

Registered Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
SUNRG said:
TBN is becoming a non-issue (no fuel sulfur = no sulfuric acid to effect TBN). even the new oils with starting TBNs of 6-7 are showing most of that left after 10k+ OCIs...
If you mean that a TDI on a 10K OCI can skip some TBN checks, I'll agree. But TBN is absolutely required for any diesel if one is heading for an extended drain interval.

The newer TDIs are more gentle than the older ones to an extent, and sulfur has decreased, but... There's still 15ppm or more in D2 - LSD will be around for awhile yet. There's also sulfur in oil, even the ACEA C3 and API CJ-4 products. And acids are still formed as oxidation and nitration increase.
 

wjdell

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Central Florida
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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
excellent DABEAR - what ever you are doing keep going. The copper - you run it hard, yes ?, still very good numbers
 

TornadoRed

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Aug 3, 2003
Location
Saint Paul (ex-San Diego)
TDI
2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red; 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver
Brock_from_WI said:
Ok, here is my last change. This time I sucked out in a clean tube and dropped that in the sample bottle. Amazing how much better it was this time without having the oil from the filter mixed in there as well ;) I filled with ELF CRV
Excellent results, due no doubt to low soot. You should be able to stretch the next oil change to 10k-12k miles.
 

dabear95

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Joined
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Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2002 Golf GLS, Silver
WJDell,

I would not say hard, but I do use the extra power in moderation. I just sent out another sample with a bit more miles, two trips with the small trailer, and one trip towing over 1,000lbs (snowmobile trailer with a 3 foot vertical surface on the front!!).

We shall see...

There is a pic in my picture folder.


Jason
 

dabear95

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2002
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2002 Golf GLS, Silver
My next sample:



Through the cold of winter
Towed the utility trailer 1400 miles
Towed snowmobile trailer 700 miles

Pretty damn good I think. It always seems to start wanting an oil change around 7,500-8K though. It's been hard to go longer since the mods beause of that...

I'm going to call the lab tomorrow and see how many miles the universal averages represent.


Jason
 

TornadoRed

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Aug 3, 2003
Location
Saint Paul (ex-San Diego)
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2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red; 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver
dabear95 said:
Pretty damn good I think. It always seems to start wanting an oil change around 7,500-8K though. It's been hard to go longer since the mods beause of that...
I agree, pretty damn good. I don't see any reason you can't go 10k miles or more. The soot levels are low and the viscosity is still in spec.

The universal averages are probably for Delvac 1. The additive levels are the giveaway -- I saw the Boron and thought "Delvac" and then looked at the rest and said "Yep". Even if you didn't specify Delvac on the sample, the analyst figured it out in an nanosecond.
 
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