TDI Timing Revisited

[Evgeniy K.]

may it be couse of second injector's shim with not proper preasure set?
I met two people with that problem now - you rev it till red line, but request and actual BDTC = 0-0,2 and smoke.

 

[greenskeeper]

how is the case pressure on the pump.

No pressure = no advance

 

[kd7iwp]

TDI Timing shows my pump in time, but what's with weird Cold Start valve?

I went out this morning to advance my timing and try this out, but was surprised by this from VCDS:

Even though the timing graph in basic settings shows my timing to be right on the blue line, looks like my cold start valve is working itself big time, rather than being at 2.8% like the original post in this thread. Any ideas why? Should I advance the pump a bit? I'm concerned that would prevent specified from meeting actual.

 

[dieselfuel]

Go to measuring blocks, group 004 and see what values the VCDS gives you. Go back at look at post #1 and re-read it carefully.

Also, go here to see why you need to read the values in Measuring Blocks, group 004 in our case:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2473556&postcount=11


df

 

[3turboz]

After replacing my timing belt, I was able to set my timing using Auto Enginuity scan tool and the method suggested by the OP.

That is, after many tries! Seems like I had a hard time making small enough corrections to get where it should be.

On a couple occasions, I saw the cold start duty cycle start to count down after the engine had been idling for a few minutes. On the last attemp, it counted down from 14.5 to 2.8, and ended with actual matching specified and the CSDC going beteen 2.8 and 4.8. I figured that is as good as I was going to get it. Has enyone else seen this slide, or know why it may happen? Car was up to temp at the time.

After 2000 miles and a thermostat replacement. I checked today and it was pegged at 2.8 with the actual being about half a degree off of specified. Is this worth trying to adjust? I just think if I mess with it I will end up with 20-40 on the duty cycle based on past attempts.

if yes, any tips on making miniscule adjustments?

Thanks!

 

[jdross440]

My timing belt has about 50K miles. My injection pump seals started leaking so I replaced them on the car. Using Vag-Com I set the fuel to 3.6 at operating temperature. When I checked the timing the lines intersect about 4 dots above the red line. Do I need to adjust my timing up closer to the blue line? When doing the adjustment, do I need to hold the camshaft sprocket?

 

[Growler]

your timing is retarded. you need to advance it by loosening the 3 13mm bolts on the IP, and using a 22mm open ended wrench, turn the pump center shaft clockwise JUST A TOUCH. if it moves more than 1/8" at the end of a 22mm combo wrench, you prolly moved it way too much.

this is a VERY FINE adjustment, and takes some trial & error to get the feel for it. as long as you are only moving it a little bit at a time, you wont have any problems.

you should not have to put much force on the nut at all using the combo wrench, lately the ones I have been doing have been easier to turn than in the past for some reason.
I say this just so you know to take it easy and don't he-man on the wrench.

tighten the 3 13mm bolt heads and Use your VCDS to check after EACH adjustment.

Good luck!

oh ya, you want those two yellow lines to cross between the blue and green lines. closer to the green line if possible.

 

[SheeB]

So has anyone done this and had any issues with cold weather starts (-30C) for us Northerners? I have the timing current between the green and blue lines and it seems to stumble/hesistate starting in only -2C already. This will be the first winter since the TB job was done this last Spring.

 

[Houpty GT]

The cold start valve duty cycle is the ECU compensating for timing.

3% duty cycle is zero ecu advance and basically what the physical timing is.

90% duty cycle is full ecu advance and maximum timing advance.

At idle, if you have a duty cycle higher than 3% the ecu is already compensating for timing and you will loose full advance at high rpms or WOT.

If mechanically retarding the pump brings the duty cycle number lower, this would suggest that the ecu is providing less to no advance. This is oppsite of what would be expected. Could someone explain?

 

[soup nazi]

Hi Chaps
Just want to throw a wild card into the timing discussion. Is it possible for the timing to be incorrectly reported due to a malfunctioning NLS or injection start solenoid?? Also has anyone replaced the injection start solenoid in situ??

SN

 

[Bebuxa]

the yellow line is above the green line to say what? how can I download the yellow line down the green?

 

[resto1975]

I have an issue with over advance on light throttle i am running just below the top line as i have a low CR so cold starts are difficult. My specified is 1.3BTDC and actual is 1.8BTDC but on light throttle i can see 6 degrees more actual than specified with 2.8% duty cycle. This obviously makes the engine very noisey. Any ideas ???

 

[leadfoot69]

Hi all. I just did my tb this past weekend.
Second time for this car since new, it a 00 jetta with alh.

Was having a over boost problem for a long time as well, changed valves, hoses and vacuum actuator but was not set properly apparently.
I did copy measurements for old actuator but was no wear near close.
So this week end i decided to change TB as it was due and while under there i got vacuum pump out and corrected turbo actuator to spec thanks to another post in here. Now car starts fine, idles good and no more over boosting but at 1850 rpms in all gears it has a nasty vibration.
Nothing at 1800 or 1900 just at 1850rpm, and lack of power above 3k rpm compared to before belt and adjustments. and now seems to have a wine in engine.

I have never adjusted pump or cam setting before ever on this car.
When putting belt back on with pump locked in place and visually tdc on cam, crank was slightly off tdc. no where near a full tooth off but not tdc either. I dont know what mpg i getting at this point but best mpg since i been keeping track which is about 2 years is only been 42 mpg and 33 to 37 city but i do drive it like a race car. lol.
I have not checked timing with laptop yet. was wondering if i could have the crank out 1 tooth on TB or not?
I wouldn't think it would idle so good if 1 tooth out but i not a master at this just ok lol. I will break out the laptop tomorrow and check the basic timing tomorrow after work.

When I changed belt a few years ago there was no problem at all, it went smoothly and no performance changes either but i didn't do anything with turbo either. I don't know how the turbo so got far out of whack in the first place but i was getting 28 psi out of it until 3k rpm then would drop to 10 psi and then slowly climb after that but would throw me over boost codes quite abit, now i get max 22 psi but then drops to the 10 psi right away and then the slow climb so it all good there.

So after this long winded read I trying to figure out if the turbo was making up for timing being possibly out. but seem to have very good power before but now just ok power. i did buy this car used at 2 year old.
So now that boost is set to factory specs could this be why i feeling less power in top end?? when what you think about vibration at 1850 rpms? could that be a timing issue??
thanks for your input .

 

[kooyajerms]

.

I'm sure the last post had something important to say, but it's all a blur.

 

[whitedog]

I'm sure the last post had something important to say, but it's all a blur.

I got it, but I have been practicing translating from imperfect English to imperfect English that I use so it wasn't too difficult for me. Judging by the location, I'm guessing English isn't the native language, so why not just let it slide?

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

Errrr, French? Have you perused the Canadian sections here? Much of it is not in English. Besides, if you ask the English, we don't speak it here either.

 

[whitedog]

Besides, if you ask the English, we don't speak it here either.

Two countries divided by a common language.

 

[ymz]

Ontario, Canada. Why wouldn't you think that English is the native language?

Not everyone is lucky enough to be born and raised in such a bastion of knowledge and grammatical perfection as you folks in Texas...

Yuri

 

[kooyajerms]

The sentences themselves were just fine Doggie. All I wanted was a couple paragraphs. Do you guys all think English is the only language to use them?

 

[whitedog]

Oh yeah. Paragraph breaks are always cool.

I use them.

Quite often, really.

Some say I use them too much though. Shrug...

 

[leadfoot69]

so my grammar sucks big deal and who cares we are here to fix tdi's not teach grammar.

So now anyways I checked timing and actual meets specified but duty cycle 60% at idle.(903 rpm) Timing would jump around a little go from .4 to 3 but always match both fields and be from 59 to 63% on duty.

Went for a drive and tried to keep an eye on things while driving, when requesting 10 to 12 btdc duty would go to 75 to 90% but actual would still match as far as i could keep eye on it.

when let off the throttle specified would be like still 5 btdc but actual would drop to 0 and duty would go to 9% or so.
Computer shows my mpg 47 avg filling up car tomorrow and then i do a 2 week tank of fuel and check mpg that way and see what it is at.
So now question is should I adjust basic timing to get duty lower or just leave it at that?
High rpm still feels sluggish compared to before turbo and TB, maby back off turbo actuator a little to get a touch more boost?? I set it to 4psi preload.

Ok for all you english teacher want to be's is that better?

 

[whitedog]

I always found it hard to teach grammer anythings. She was just too stuck in her ways.

Anyway, You pose a good question about adjusting basic timing to get lower duty cycle. Since you brought it up, it has made me wonder if there is any benefit to this? I understand setting basic timing effects ease of starting, but I'm unclear on how it effects other things.

Is your car stock?

 

[leadfoot69]

I always found it hard to teach grammer anythings. She was just too stuck in her ways.

Anyway, You pose a good question about adjusting basic timing to get lower duty cycle. Since you brought it up, it has made me wonder if there is any benefit to this? I understand setting basic timing effects ease of starting, but I'm unclear on how it effects other things.

Is your car stock?

Yes all stock other then k&n air filter.

 

[ymz]

k&n air filter.

Oh, no...


Yuri.

 

[whitedog]

shhhh. K&N is a dirty word around here and if you ask why, remember, we warned you.

 

[leadfoot69]

Hmm I have using k&n for over 10 years in a few dif cars and motorcycles.
Not sure why there shh word, I love them.
3 mpg better in wife's minivan says it all to me. But maby that not tipical but that what i got on last 2 van's and my bike 5 mpg and much more power too.
I haven't notice to much on my tdi other then over boosting more untill now that adjusted to actuator. Now no over boost at all so i put it back in and it feels a little more pep.

I would to like to hear from other as to why it's bad. Maybe I missing something?

 

[tditom]

leadfoot69-
Please search on K&N- we've sidetracked this fine thread too much already

 

[whitedog]

The way to search the site for K&N filters is to go to the advanced search page then scroll to the bottom and use the Google search feature. The native search feature doesn't recognize K&N.

 

[Matt-98AHU]

I have a little to add to aNUT's method of obtaining a good match between the pump's static and dynamic timing settings.

Rather than use measuring block 004 to match things up, I use measuring block 000, field 2. That is the raw timing data in much more fine increments than found in measuring block 004.

Typically, once the engine is fully warmed up, thermostat opened (around 87-95C preferably) that is when you check the timing.

Goto measuring block zero, make note of what the number in field 2 is. With it fully warmed up, it should be in the 55-62 range at idle. If it's higher than that, you likely have the pump statically set higher than what the computer is requesting.

Hit basic settings, note the change in field 2. If no change happens, the pump is in fact statically set more advanced than what the computer is requesting.

If the number drops, the static setting is lower than what it's requesting. My experience has been that when the car is properly warmed up, the static setting vs. requested is practically right on the middle line, or around a value of 55 in field 2, measuring block 000.

So that's what I've been doing lately, I make the mechanical adjustment with the engine fully warm until I get the most minimal drop in measuring block 000 field 2 value when I switch to basic settings.

When you're done, you can double check your work in measuring block 4 if you like, but when done right, those two numbers (actual vs. requested) will absolutely match and the pump won't have to work very hard to get it there.

I have done this for a few customers very recently. I will have to try it on my Mk3 soon. Fuel economy has been less than optimal lately! Though, it may have something to do with my driving style... and the fact I frequently haul very heavy tools around (pretty much on the bump stops in the rear)!

 

[Biczek]

Last night I was trying to adjust my specified vs. actual timing by adaptation in block #4 but it doesn't exist ( original black BK ECU).

I think to bring actual vs. specified I will have to manually adjust IP in basic settings - retard timing from 55* to mid-line /blue/.

Right now I have:

Engine speed / Specified start / Actual start / Cold start valve

-----882 -------0.4*BTDC-------1.4BTDC -------3.1%

One more thing, when I switch from measure to basic setting in block #4
my Specified go to 8*BTDC and Actual follow to 8*BTDC too

Engine sound change too, any explanation why this is happening?


Tom