TDI Timing Revisited

BlownBusa

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Location
Amarillo Texas
TDI
2012 Passat SE+ DSG
Bumped mine from 0.7btdc to 3.7btdc, 82ish in basic settings on the graph. I adapted it so they would match up in group 004 and duty cycle is about 6.0... A few things I've noticed are. Cold starts pop right off (28ish here right now in the mornings)... Runs warmer, use to run 150ish and would never hit 190 at a idle at the bank, but it did this morning... Seems to rev happier and pull stronger above 3k rpm... But hey, it could all be in my head! :D
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
So far my cold starts (been down to 28) are unaffected compared to advanced injection timing.

Fuel economy hasn't changed that I can discern yet either.
 

BlownBusa

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Location
Amarillo Texas
TDI
2012 Passat SE+ DSG
I'll check mpg's Sunday... I have a 400 mile trip, but so far seems no change. :rolleyes: I am wondering about cylinder pressure since I'll soon be putting the 1856 on and turning up the tune. Looks like I'll be ordering some ARP's! :D
 

Birdman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Near Hagerstown MD.
TDI
Jetta 2001 Died by Truck one snowy day. Jetta 2003
Just reread this after trouble shooting a drop in mileage. When I checked the timing it was a good 3/4 in over the top line. When I bought it I had a new belt installed (Feb 10) by a Guru and check the time after picking the car up, then it was setting in the middle. I will be resetting the timing this afternoon hopefully my timing will go back to normal.
 

vflflyer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Location
San Diego
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI 1.9L w/Manual Trans.
Hi, hoping someone can answer my question! I had a small MB garage install a 100.000 mile timing kit which was done about 40,000 miles ago (a little over a year ago) and today my car was was making a noise (loud diesel sound) under 5 mph. and started to lose power so I was afraid I was not going to make it home. I decide to drive it directly to a VW dealer and they called me and told me that the timing tensioner broke.
Is this normal? The dealer said it could have been a faulty part. Could it be from improper installation? Is there anything I can do about a faulty part even though it was installed over a year ago, 40,000 miles later?
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Hi, hoping someone can answer my question! I had a small MB garage install a 100.000 mile timing kit which was done about 40,000 miles ago (a little over a year ago) and today my car was was making a noise (loud diesel sound) under 5 mph. and started to lose power so I was afraid I was not going to make it home. I decide to drive it directly to a VW dealer and they called me and told me that the timing tensioner broke.
Is this normal? The dealer said it could have been a faulty part. Could it be from improper installation? Is there anything I can do about a faulty part even though it was installed over a year ago, 40,000 miles later?
It was most like improper installation. The OE tensioner is made by Litens of Canada, and all reputable 100k-mile kits include a Litens tensioner. I suppose it's possible that there is another company out there making inferior tensioners, but I don't know why anyone would use anything but Litens.

I doubt that you have any recourse against the shop that did the work, except never to trust them again.
 

vflflyer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Location
San Diego
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI 1.9L w/Manual Trans.
Timing Tensioner Broke

I did ask the dealer to save all the parts for me, not sure what that will do though!
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
I did ask the dealer to save all the parts for me, not sure what that will do though!
Unfortunately if they did something wrong like set tension too loose/tight, or didn't put enough torque on the 13mm tensioner nut, etc... you will have to hear about it from a dealer mechanic who may not have been paying very close attention. Do look at the tensioner to see if the tab that is supposed to go into the engine hole is bent or broken. .... and don't rule out the possibility of bad luck and failed parts. You never know when a batch of poorly treated steel is going to be released, and there's no way to test a part like this before installation. I'm personally keeping my ears open ever since I installed a new Litens tensioner and started hearing an engine-rpm related whine. It's probably fine, but posts like this keep me on my toes. Was it a bad installation or bad parts? So hard to know for sure until there is hard evidence.

Although TornadoRed is 100% correct that nobody should be using Chinese parts (Napa, Autozone, etc.)... it is not uncommon to have this happen anyway. Only a small percentage of tdi owners ever know that there might be a difference between parts in the first place.

..Best thing to do is ensure that pistons never kissed the valves and get it done right the next time. If everything checks out, try to come to grips with the fact that you were extremely lucky to have a failure in the timing belt path that didn't lunch your motor! :D
 
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manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Something to add to the timing thread:

I've done a few timing belt jobs now and I've had the opportunity to re-check timing a few months after the job. It always seems to be slightly retarded from where I originally set it. So... shouldn't we set the timing towards the top of the graph, assuming that it will settle back near the middle of the graph over time?

If it's a timing 'check-up' with worn in parts... I would think I'd set it in the middle and assume it wouldn't move...

Thoughts?
 
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vflflyer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Location
San Diego
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI 1.9L w/Manual Trans.
Well, the dealership gave me a price of $1,600. to do a complete timing change with WP. Ouch that hurts. Talk about highway robbery! I did not want to drive it off the lot so I felt like I was at thier mercy.

I hope they do not call me up and tell me they found other problems caused by this mishap!
 

vflflyer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Location
San Diego
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI 1.9L w/Manual Trans.
Something to add to the timing thread:

I've done a few timing belt jobs now and I've had the opportunity to re-check timing a few months after the job. It always seems to be slightly retarded from where I originally set it. So... shouldn't we set the timing towards the top of the graph, assuming that it will settle back near the middle of the graph over time?

If it's a timing 'check-up' with worn in parts... I would think I'd set it in the middle and assume it wouldn't move...

Thoughts?
If anyone has any thoughts on where it should be set on the graph maybe I will still have time to call the dealership and ask them to set the timing at the recomended place on the graph!
 

BlownBusa

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Location
Amarillo Texas
TDI
2012 Passat SE+ DSG
Something to add to the timing thread:
I've done a few timing belt jobs now and I've had the opportunity to re-check timing a few months after the job. It always seems to be slightly retarded from where I originally set it. So... shouldn't we set the timing towards the top of the graph, assuming that it will settle back near the middle of the graph over time?
If it's a timing 'check-up' with worn in parts... I would think I'd set it in the middle and assume it wouldn't move...
Thoughts?
Yes... Me too! +1 :cool:
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Well, the dealership gave me a price of $1,600. to do a complete timing change with WP. Ouch that hurts. Talk about highway robbery! I did not want to drive it off the lot so I felt like I was at thier mercy.

I hope they do not call me up and tell me they found other problems caused by this mishap!
It is probably too late now, but if you'd asked me 24 hours ago I would have suggested that you have it towed or flatbedded to Wild Rose Motors in Whittier.
 

Birdman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Near Hagerstown MD.
TDI
Jetta 2001 Died by Truck one snowy day. Jetta 2003
Something to add to the timing thread:

I've done a few timing belt jobs now and I've had the opportunity to re-check timing a few months after the job. It always seems to be slightly retarded from where I originally set it. So... shouldn't we set the timing towards the top of the graph, assuming that it will settle back near the middle of the graph over time?

If it's a timing 'check-up' with worn in parts... I would think I'd set it in the middle and assume it wouldn't move...

Thoughts?
Mine did just the opposite When a well known Guru changed mine last Feb, I checked the car when it was delivered and it was just above the middle line. 2 weeks ago after noticing that my mileage had been down for a few tanks I checked it again and the timing was better then 1/2 in above the top line. I changed it last weekend back to the middle to see if it will help my mileage come back up, last tank it was down over 4 MPG from 9 months ago. I did also change the fuel filter and still have to change the oil which and rotate the tires to get it ready for winter. But this car has never given my the high mileage my built up 01 did. Even with the VNT 17,FMIC, 11MM pump, PP520, and full 2.5 inch exhaust it gave me 55 normal driving and 63 on trips.
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
It's been my experience that, things settle in a bit after a belt and timing-reset. Whether that's towards the advanced or retarded side is a crap-shoot. I've taken it upon myself to check timing again within a month or so after any process requiring the loosening and re-setting the tensioner/belt. Not a bad practice, even if not required by VW or Bentley.

I've got much experience playing w/timing, both static and dynamic (ECU) and have come to the conclusion, each engine has to be evaluated individually. I'm not sure any 'blanket' rules apply here. For instance, running your timing 'hot' statically (up around the green line) does seem to afford better cold starting and even mileage, but not in every case. Adapting your timing in VCDS definitely has an effect but only to the whole timing curve. It will also effect the total amount of dynamic advance available at the upper end. Running advanced timing by adapting it has the downside of over-advancing when cold starting. This manifests itself as the engine sounding more 'rattly' and generally courser running when cold. Looking at ScanGauge, I'm running 3-5 BTDC under those conditions compared to stock at 0-1 BTDC (or even slightly positive) when stock. The ECU is having a hard (or impossible) time meeting requested as well causing higher duty cycles.

Under stock conditions, the max advance you can get is somewhere around 16-18º where I can get 21º when advanced per the tuner's defaults (performance chip). The driving characteristics, however, change noticeably between the two on the average. Less advance (dynamically) results in lower power band and overall stronger feel in day to day driving. Hot advance results in more hollow mid-range response but, ultimately, slightly more go power under WOT conditions. Full advance makes for more rattly cold starts and higher PCP's as well but yield slightly better overall mileage also. For me, they're all a trade-off and one needs to experiment to find which they find most suitable. Setting your static timing to somewhere over the blue and before the green seems to offer the best starting as this is pre-ECU/dynamic and the closer to ideal you can set it, the better.

Think about your max timing required as retarding your static timing may limit your upper limit available. The pump (ALH) can only provide around 18º total advance and the more retarded you set it statically will dictate your max advance under WOT. For example, if I set my static advanced and advance my dynamic (adaptation) I can easily get 21º total. With everything pushed to the advanced side, however, it has a hard time meeting requested at idle. On the other hand, by setting my static lower and adapting my idle/start advance to around 0º (32768), I only get a total of around 18º. For mild to moderately modded ALH's... around 18º seems to be a good number. My car is well behaved set that way, though a bit muted on the top end and a bit less fuel efficient. I currently run about 19.5º total as it's a good compromise between all factors. For stronger city performance, I'll drop that to around 18º and gain some mid-range umph at the cost of high end performance and mileage.

Just my experience but I tend to look at the whole timing package as opposed to just the static portion. I don't think there's real 'magic' there. The static portion serves as a starting point for the dynamic and dictates the range available for the ECU/pump to work within. After that, the timing and related maps give the curve its shape within the limits of what the pump can do. There are ups and downs to each combination.

Any statements I made regarding timing adaptation should be considered risky and not taken lightly. Any changes are done at your own risk and I indemnify myself from any responsibility. As usual, YMMV...
 
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greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
I've been trying to come up with a way to tap into the test port on the back of the IP to check the case pressure, and correctly set the relief valve.
 

greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
The cold start valve duty cycle is the ECU compensating for timing.

3% duty cycle is zero ecu advance and basically what the physical timing is.

90% duty cycle is full ecu advance and maximum timing advance.

At idle, if you have a duty cycle higher than 3% the ecu is already compensating for timing and you will loose full advance at high rpms or WOT.
 

vflflyer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Location
San Diego
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI 1.9L w/Manual Trans.
I had to tighten the power steering res. after they did my timing since they did not! So I also decided to look under the car and noticed that the passenger side inner CV Boot is now torn with just a few spots of grease on the exhaust shield. Could they have caused this when doing the timing?
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
Now several thousand miles post-injection timing change to aNut's suggestion to allow requested to meet actual at idle....

- Cold starts are very good, but it's hard to compare as I've had the incorrect starter installed for two years. Remembering back to the time when I had a good starter, I would say my current starts are no better or worse.

- Fuel economy is the best I have ever achieved in the winter. I don't know if it's Irving's fuel this winter, but I've yet to post a tank below 50 mpg with about 40% of miles being a 7 mile commute in which the car barely gets to operating temperature. Normally winter mileage sits between 46 and 48.

In conclusion, the repulsion some people give towards setting injection timing near the blue line doesn't really seem well founded. Cars run well both ways, but maybe it does vary from car to car as FlyTDI suggests.
 
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npdimonte

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Bolingbrook, IL (Chicago area)
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS TDI, 5spd
Now several thousand miles post-injection timing change to aNut's suggestion to allow requested to meet actual at idle....

- Cold starts are very good, but it's hard to compare as I've had the incorrect starter installed for two years. Remembering back to the time when I had a good starter, I would say my current starts are no better or worse.

- Fuel economy is the best I have ever achieved in the winter. I don't know if it's Irving's fuel this winter, but I've yet to post a tank below 50 mpg with about 40% of miles being a 7 mile commute in which the car barely gets to operating temperature. Normally winter mileage sits between 46 and 48.

In conclusion, the repulsion some people give towards setting injection timing on the blue line doesn't really seem well founded. Cars run well both ways, but maybe it does vary from car to car as FlyTDI suggests.
Where do you find "aNut's suggestion to allow requested to meet actual at idle...."? Does he have a procedure to do this?
 

npdimonte

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Bolingbrook, IL (Chicago area)
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS TDI, 5spd

coronan

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Joined
May 4, 2009
Location
Reno, NV
TDI
01 Golf
So I reset my timing this weekend.
Actual meets requested of 2.8*.
Cold Start at 56% and and
Timing graph is on the green line.
I could also go higher and timing still meets requested and cold start is similar.
I have not played with adaptation yet.
Suggestions???
It seams like the goal is to get the cold start duty cycle as low as possible.
Why am I not their???
 

Evgeniy K.

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Location
Ukraine, Zaporozhye
TDI
1.9 TDi AHF AT 3DR 2000.
Folks, who can say some about this:
Mine friend get smoke at iddle if revs and under other conditions. Engine, nozzles, etc. is fine. We look at timing and ....... ***? Actual=Requested 0.4=0.4 but duty is 95%. We begin to rotate pump. In max. advanced position it gives 2.8 BDTC actual, but duty still high - 28%. And one more problem - If you drive it - request not going to more than 0,7 BDTC even at 100% go-pedal push.
So, the car didnt ask more than 1* advance - and smoke.
What it can be?
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Darn it, I thought this was the thread about adaptation timing. Disregard this post.
 
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Evgeniy K.

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Location
Ukraine, Zaporozhye
TDI
1.9 TDi AHF AT 3DR 2000.
Yes, and i think its something wrong with right adaptation, but dont know whats wrong...
specefied - 0.4, actual = 0.7 Duty cycle = 87 ! If you advance it more - it will give 5% duty but actual = 2.2.
 

Evgeniy K.

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Location
Ukraine, Zaporozhye
TDI
1.9 TDi AHF AT 3DR 2000.
Help :)
So the problem - ALH did not request dynamic timing. WAGCOM shows that request at idle - 0,4 and when you press go-pedal - is ask 0,4-0,2 BDTC, and pump give this values. But must ask 15*BDTC and give 15* too.

Whats wrong?
 
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