TDI Pumpe Duse PD Cam Bearing Oiling and Related Wear (eddif)

[BrianCT]

The links and pics you posted here are not a 2006 BRM, they are of a 2002? Golf??
Does this mean you have had to replace cams in two of your cars? (2002 and a 2006?)
Sorry, just a bit confused by your posts.

Bill

You many not have been following threads on ALH cam wear over the past several years but the the Zippy thread is here. Zippy discovered her cam issue at the April'06 HO5G's GTG. Remember now, the ALH engine was thought to be a 400,000 mile motor ...so-said. What Zippy pointed out during her investigation was certain years [2002 mainly] had some flawed cam metallurgy. That alerted others owning models 2001's-2003's to start pulling valve covers and inspecting cams. Meanwhile these replacement "cams" came way down in price at VW suddenly?


BrianCT

 

[Nutsnbolts]

Brian:

I had a lifter failure in my ALH (2000 MY) that I also posted here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=101908&highlight=cam+failure

Granted, this was over 4 years ago, and it was at 235,000 miles, but let it be known that the ALHs are not immune to this issue, even using Delvac. I have 166,000 miles on that repair now, using Febi lifters, and all is going well. But I do check the lifters for stress at every timing belt swap.

BTW- the ALH IS a 400,000 mile motor- see the signature.

-Rich

 

[dsmith1279]

I'm planning on opening my valve cover to check mine this weekend. Ive got 114000 miles on mine and guess it's worth the few minutes to see if I'm good to go. I'd like to mic out my cam. So that I can tell how much I have lost, what are the measurments on a new one?

 

[Bob S.]

I'm planning on opening my valve cover to check mine this weekend. Ive got 114000 miles on mine and guess it's worth the few minutes to see if I'm good to go. I'd like to mic out my cam. So that I can tell how much I have lost, what are the measurments on a new one?

To my knowledge; a measurement data base has not yet been complied. If you find one, please post or pm a link to it.

 

[GoFaster]

dsmith, there is no way you are going to be able to measure this properly without doing A LOT more disassembly than just taking the cover off. You'll see why when you have the cover off.

 

[05_new_jetta]

05

05 just kick back and decide when you want to do the next bearing replacement. Not worry, not fret, just replace like doing an oil and filter replacement. There is no difference in bearing replacement and brake pad replacement. If you wait till the brake rotors are ruined you get to help your part seller make more money. If you wait on cam bearing replacement you make your part seller happy. And... If you wait till total failure you get to make your mechanic happy. Just decide on the amount you want to pay. IMHO

eddif

yes for most people but when I do everything myself I don't like doing it anymore than I have to.lol

 

[eddif]

I mentioned moving the belt end cam bearing somewhere, but I think it is buried in text. I want to re-open this thought and see If we can find a way to move the belt end can bearing about 2mm toward the belt. A wider tang bent into the bearing shell and a wider cut in the head and cam bearing tower would move the bearings (if offset was planned into the cutting and bending). A new location would work too. A cam bearing may (?) be rebent to do this. VW could supply a bearing with a relocated tang for one bearing. I do need to know it the cam surface is there to do the moving though. I need a head to do all this stuff. Does anyone have a junk head? Does anyone have a discount price on a head? Can I get anyone to do pictures of the area at the belt end? If we can get the belt end bearing to overhang both sides a little bit more towards the belt, I think the copper release spot may go away, and supply more cam support. Moved the bearing would wear the head more evenly.


Help

eddif

I have gone back and considered this idea again and want to kill it.

From the balance of loading point it works but from the soda straw rule it seems to fall apart. The sharp edge of the head seems to be causing a wrinkle in the cam bearing. This wrinkle (for lack of a better word) must be what caused my copper release spot. The follower cutouts do not make this nice wrinkle (due to shape?), but the straight cut seems to do this. There is very little cantilever distance but it must be the cause of the wear spot. There was a little dot looking spot under the wear area, but it must not have been the problem.

I am open to discussion on this. If these last thoughts are true then there would be no better way to have cantilever than over the shape they are over. Not that we want cantilever, but if it had to exist it is better the way it was done than to have been over a straight cut.

I go back and look at my thoughts and am trying to get my bogus theory out of this thread. If I am right I try to defend the thoughts. If I am wrong it needs to go. Of course I accept my criticism with a smile. LOL

eddif

 

[eddif]

Wrinkle Wear?

Here is a picture from SBA, and he has the same wear spot I do on the belt end bearing. Notice the copper showing is a super similar distance from the edge. The oil slot weakens the bearing also. The soda straw wrinkle forms and wears to release the copper...........................

Then here are mine.





Notice the streak is in both the 100,000 mile bearings and the 5,000 mile bearings (two lower rows). This is not just a freak accident but a trait of the bearing / head structure or fitment. I can go back to another bearing someone posted and show what I believe is a similar situation.

You have to look, but you can see a faint trail and small wear mark on the bearing closest to you. The copper wear areas are divided also showing the probability of it once looking like out bearings.

I am open to suggestions. How do you stop this? Maybe the bevel on the head I mentioned a few posts back would help (at that time I had not thought of the wrinkle / soda straw effect).

If you do not buy into the copper theory this will seem like a useless post, but once you have observed the copper streaks (anyone know where some really clear pictures are ??) you should start to see the reason for all the copper talk. The copper trails turn into wear trails IMHO.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Electronics 101 (pure fiction)

If the resistance of R1 goes up then the current across R3 goes down causing the RC time constant to change between R3 and C12. If your multiplier is not stable check the value or R1 after you have isolated it from the circuit.

It has been too many years to remember the examples , but some of the process clings on in my mind. I am using this same training to try and isolate the problems in our PDs. No wonder some of you wonder where in the heck I am coming from.

Sorry!

eddif

 

[Bob S.]

... I am open to suggestions. How do you stop this? Maybe the bevel on the head I mentioned a few posts back would help (at that time I had not thought of the wrinkle / soda straw effect).
If you do not buy into the copper theory this will seem like a useless post, but once you have observed the copper streaks (anyone know where some really clear pictures are ??) you should start to see the reason for all the copper talk. The copper trails turn into wear trails IMHO. eddif

Ed, You have read me asking similar questions about the bearings. My sense is that there are several things going on with this bearing wear problem in the PD. One of them is that the bearing shells are deforming over their support bases from the cam loads. Stress risers under the bearings - the sharp edge of the head bearing seat - is the hinge point of the bearing shell deformation. (I think this is what you are referring to with your cantilever description). My thinking at this juncture is the bearing deformation results in less than optimum clearance (the distorted bearings are pinching the cam) and inhibits even lubrication across the bearing surface. The result is wear at distortion @ the stress risers.

Personally, I would be willing to try running bearings with a stronger bearing shell material, not the wear surfaces, the shell. I am concerned that cutting/notching the bearings will only exacerbate deflection in the bearing shells and result in more rapid wear. Relieving the edges under the bearing has merit. The problem is, if it does not work, recreating those edges would likely be a SOB. Perhaps, boring the cam journals out and installing oversized bearing might accomplish something, but is a heck of a lot more involved than rolling in new bearings &/or replacing cams, etc.

It will be interesting to learn how cams fare with oils other than the VW spec. stuff. I am still a bit suspicious that the spec oil maybe a contributing factor. I still thing it would be interesting to learn why this is appears to be primarily a US spec problem and does not effect the Eruo engines as much.

 

[eddif]

BrianCT has made two excellent posts lately (one was a little rough) telling us why the NA cars fail and the European ones do not fail as much. Both posts have vanished. Brian would you post the information again?

eddif

 

[hid3]

Brian would you post the information again?

x2!

 

[Bob S.]

BrianCT has made two excellent posts lately (one was a little rough) telling us why the NA cars fail and the European ones do not fail as much. Both posts have vanished. Brian would you post the information again?

eddif

I missed those. Brian or any one else, please repost, PM or email me. Bob

 

[eddif]

Ed, You have read me asking similar questions about the bearings. My sense is that there are several things going on with this bearing wear problem in the PD. One of them is that the bearing shells are deforming over their support bases from the cam loads. Stress risers under the bearings - the sharp edge of the head bearing seat - is the hinge point of the bearing shell deformation. (I think this is what you are referring to with your cantilever description). My thinking at this juncture is the bearing deformation results in less than optimum clearance (the distorted bearings are pinching the cam) and inhibits even lubrication across the bearing surface. The result is wear at distortion @ the stress risers.

Personally, I would be willing to try running bearings with a stronger bearing shell material, not the wear surfaces, the shell. I am concerned that cutting/notching the bearings will only exacerbate deflection in the bearing shells and result in more rapid wear. Relieving the edges under the bearing has merit. The problem is, if it does not work, recreating those edges would likely be a SOB. Perhaps, boring the cam journals out and installing oversized bearing might accomplish something, but is a heck of a lot more involved than rolling in new bearings &/or replacing cams, etc.

It will be interesting to learn how cams fare with oils other than the VW spec. stuff. I am still a bit suspicious that the spec oil maybe a contributing factor. I still thing it would be interesting to learn why this is appears to be primarily a US spec problem and does not effect the Eruo engines as much.

I am a little slow to want to comment. I want to give others the chance to comment, but try and find the truth.

All the soda straw talk was because, as far as I can tell, the sharp edge on the belt end bearing may be the hinge point, but it does not seem to be the area of wear. I agree it seems logical that the two areas would be the same, but the wear seems to be inboard of the sharp edge. I have bearings to look at and that is what I think I see. Would some others care to comment on the location. I have played with a soda straw much too much lately and its deformation over a sharp bend is strange. I can always be wrong, but whatever the cause the little wear streak needs to be dealt with. Rounding the corner may just move the ridge more inboard.

Sanding /buffing the rear of the bearing rather than the head may relieve the stress. I think another of the babbit side cuts will stop the ridge (I know "he is going to cut those bearings till nothing is left). I am sorry the stock bearings do not work. Everyone is welcome to come up with better bearings /set up.

The pinching, If you are talking about the end upper bearing contact, is the result of the whole end bearing cocking and the top bearing (leaning over and contacting the cam) over the cantilevered area. If you hold matched bearings in your hand and press down where the bearing set is over the open area the top bearing shell goes toward the open area and makes contact. There seems to be plenty of clearance. There is no wear evidence the cam is being pinched toward the oil hole. Pinching toward the oil hole would show a wear area opposite the oil hole IMHO.

I would like VW to supply a new head with thicker bearing shells, different alloy bearing material, cuts already in the bearings to stop cocking. Regretfully the odds are kind of slim this will happen. It also seems a slim chance that King Bearings, or another company, will come up with a bearing. It all talks good, but we seem to be stuck with what we can do. The very start of this thread mentioned the odds were stacked against us and we would possibly be the ones supplying all the work.

When the cut bearings are pulled we will see what my Ideas have produced. Our speculation will be shown by wear marks. I realize my cam and head are getting wear on them, and the wear will slightly confuse the readings (may be more than slightly for some). The wear will have to be accomidated in the bearing reading, and some may just about not be able to handle all this. I will try and explain what I see, but from past posts some will just say "I do not buy into that". Oh Well! such is life. We will all do our best, and that will not be good enough. We may not fix the problem till others get involved. An engine with low miles will have to test the bearings to remove the wear issue. SBA's engine has more fretting wear than mine and it has less miles. This is not easy.

eddif

 

[40X40]

It would help us understand what is going on if you would use plastiguage each time you have the bearing caps off. You can get it at auto parts stores and any machine shop will have it too.
That way the clearances can be actually measured..

Bill

 

[BrianCT]

BrianCT has made two excellent posts lately (one was a little rough) .....

My english is a little tested at given times, almost painful. If I proof read a post and can't understand where my point is going ...the post goes.

We're here trying to micro analyze a problem with our cams with marginal belief from the vast majority of readers. We're tossing darts. I'd like to step back and take a firm grasp on the obvious in a macro sense. What are the reasons for the cam and followers to fail. Simple? We could try to examine some thoughts and some facts as they exist.

1. 2006 last year for the PD, loss of interest on improvements or refinements last few years?
2. Suppliers and quality issues during last year of production [cam wise]
3. Compliant for emissions 50 State legal on a design not fit for the task?
4. Compromised lubrication to lower emissions w/the use of motor oils which are targeted solely on tail pipe?
5. EGR system that runs hotter this side of the pond with the combination of LSD/ULSD? [next 4 below are injector related]
6. Has anyone thought or examined the possibility there could be different types or set-ups/designs and/or calibrations with same model year on injector actuation?
7. Considering number 6 it would be the only variable which we have never thoroughly examined?
8. Considering number 7 we've proven that VW messed with followers mid and early production [even mixing them in one engine], why not consider a likelihood on injector actuation or metallurgy designs?
9. Move toward 15ppm ULSD vs europe's 50ppm?
10. Terrible additive packages in ULSD first few months out?
11. The change-over to ULSD, what combination was issued at distributor levels to dilute /purge their tanks during transition?
12. Would enjoy more examination on injectors

 

[eddif]

Thanks BrianCT
The main point I was hearing, in your ealier posts, was the difference in specifications to meet the standards in the USA. I hate we lost the original text that seemed to hit it dead on target. It may work out we discuss it more this way. We may be running a tune that uses higher pressures different loading and a host of other things you mentioned.

All the information is not available to prove or disprove some of this,but we may eventually get through this.

I still vote for 150 hp injectors and lower primary fuel pressure. I still need the fuel side of the tandem pump to start my experiment .And. a head to cut up .And. half a brain to think with.

eddif

 

[BrianCT]

Thanks BrianCT
The main point I was hearing, in your earlier posts, was the difference in specifications to meet the standards in the USA.

I don't believe for a moment that the BEW and BRM was designed to operate here in the USA. It was a transitional motor at a time when VW was heading for newer technology. Look at the mysterious "down years" of 2007-2008. The motor seemed to operate well in europe for a decade.

I don't think 150hp injectors will cure anything other then to add more heat to an antiquated exhaust recirc system. It's really a heat issue. In 3,000 miles I saw it going south quickly on the exact same daily commute, nothing changed for 3 years ....*poof*

Across the board we're also seeing large percentage differences betwn mpg on same make and model year too ...unlike the ALH's.

This is a heat issue.

 

[Bob S.]

Brian; Thanks good thoughts. Heat issue. Any known off road PDs with completely blocked off/deleted EGR systems that might provide info.

 

[SBAtdijetta]

I don't believe for a moment that the BEW and BRM was designed to operate here in the USA. It was a transitional motor at a time when VW was heading for newer technology. Look at the mysterious "down years" of 2007-2008. The motor seemed to operate well in europe for a decade.

I don't think 150hp injectors will cure anything other then to add more heat to an antiquated exhaust recirc system. It's really a heat issue. In 3,000 miles I saw it going south quickly on the exact same daily commute, nothing changed for 3 years ....*poof*

Across the board we're also seeing large percentage differences betwn mpg on same make and model year too ...unlike the ALH's.

This is a heat issue.

I think so as well, this is what Mach1 mentioned back in January when we first installed my larger in injectors and first noticed some wear.

Brian; Thanks good thoughts. Heat issue. Any known off road PDs with completely blocked off/deleted EGR systems that might provide info.

Yes me, 1) turned off from 9k with RC tune, 2) then EGR cooler removed and totally blocked off at 31k with new S/t turbo and Kerma tune. (But here step two, more power would have just added that heat back and then some IMHO)

I think there are lots of EGRless PDs though.

 

[BrianCT]

Yes me, 1) turned off from 9k with RC tune, 2) then EGR cooler removed and totally blocked off at 31k with new S/t turbo and Kerma tune. (But here step two, more power would have just added that heat back and then some IMHO)

I think there are lots of EGRless PDs though.

We were RC1 +1 at 1,400 miles new with temp plates still on the car right off the dealership floor. Bought March 08, 2006, chipped Ho5G April 01, 2006. EGR delete and at 50,000 miles a blown EGR cooler till 93,000 miles. It's safe to say we were EGRless for awhile.

 

[hid3]

I don't believe for a moment that the BEW and BRM was designed to operate here in the USA. It was a transitional motor at a time when VW was heading for newer technology. Look at the mysterious "down years" of 2007-2008. The motor seemed to operate well in europe for a decade.

FYI BRM uses exactly the same head (part numbers do match) as European BKC engine (the mine one ). I haven't checked deeper but the head might be identical to other engine codes too.

 

[2footbraker]

Has there been any Canadian failures at all? I don't recall any.

 

[eddif]

Glad to hear so much positive encouragement on the 150 HP injectors. This reminds me of all the encouragement you gave / give me at times. LOL

I do think there is some information / thouthts we / I need to share. The 150 HP injectors would be used to make 100 HP (BEW) just like the car does now. The 150 HP injectors would not be used to create more HP. The purpose of the larger injectors is to use lower primary fuel pressure (pressure from the tandem pump) to lower the final injection pressure to get the fuel into the engine. The idea is to get the same fuel into the engine with less effort. Since you are using the same amount of fuel you should not have any increase in heat to deal with.

Years ago Cummins was bending injection push rods (we have push rods) and having cam problems. They used larger injectors lowered the primary fuel pressure and helped the problem. We have the same system plus an electronic element. Their solution should work for us too.

eddif

 

[eddif]

It would help us understand what is going on if you would use plastiguage each time you have the bearing caps off. You can get it at auto parts stores and any machine shop will have it too.
That way the clearances can be actually measured..

Bill

Bill I have used plastiuage, but on unloaded areas. An engine upside down just requires settling down the crank pulling caps, putting the strings in and replacing the caps reading and replacing the caps. Rods are pulled tight strips placed in the caps carefully tightened removed,read and replaced. In running position paper is used to hold the crank up while some are read, paper moved and then switched out and still others read. I have never removed the cam and the followers are pushing up and the belt is pulling sideways and down. You are talking about an exercise in futility. Please measure all you wish and share with us all. I as well as others would be interested. You seem to want measurements at 10:00 12:00 and 1:00 and would spend all the time needed. What happened with our (radio ?) person who was going to measure (who had all the measuring tools)? Your help in measuring would be appreciated, but I would love to leave the measuring to someone else. If I ever made a mistake I would never hear the end of it.

eddif

 

[DanG144]

Eddif,
I have seen no information that leads me to think the cam force from the 150 injectors would be any less than the 100 injectors. Doesn't it all depend upon how it was designed?

You could end up with the same or higher peak forces, but perhaps of shorter duration.

Do you have information on this, or are you making assumptions on what you hope is a similar case?

Dan

 

[Rod Bearing]

A good machinist could make a set of cam bearing backer sleeves, if there is sufficient head material on the base side, and room for a beefier set of steel caps. Make a set of steel caps, then line bore the head 3/8 inch larger, and make a set of hard steel sleeves, and slice them in half. Line bore the sleeves in the new caps and notch for the bearings. Fairly straightforward machine work, and you could do some mods to the bearing oiling locations at the same time. Stabilize the cam bearings and you might find the follower and burned lobe issue is fixed as a result of this mod too.

What a crappy design this BRM head is.

 

[eddif]

Eddif,
I have seen no information that leads me to think the cam force from the 150 injectors would be any less than the 100 injectors. Doesn't it all depend upon how it was designed?
You could end up with the same or higher peak forces, but perhaps of shorter duration.
Do you have information on this, or are you making assumptions on what you hope is a similar case?
Dan

For one, SBA reported he was able to lay down a black smoke screen. This means that given the tandem pump pressure that exists stock, you can get more than the needed fuel at high RPM WOT. Thus the high RPM primary fuel pressure can be reduced leading to lower injection pressure at high RPM and or WOT. The low RPM pressure from the pump would not be affected with the correct tandem pump modifications,and idle should not be affected.

Assumptions and extrapolations can be different. Of cousrse I do not know enough to be 100% sure on any of this. I will not even presume to know what an extrapolation is. Some of this is based on similar cases, and uses lateral thinking to arrive at the logical outcome.

Cam bearing cutting is derived from engine design where several bearings are unique to their running position. Our engines have unique design flaws and require a unique approach to counteract each situation.

Peak forces should be down and rely on similar to stock durations for fuel delivery using larger openings / design flows.

A theory is that - a theory. You test it to see if it works. Some have suggested our wear occurs at start up. Talks nice and the way to address this is to install the pre lube device and test it. I am testing the cut bearings and will report in just as I did with stock cam bearing replacement. I would call the stock cam bearing replacement a limited success. Reading the 5,000 mile bearings says that the timing belt bearing would fail just like the first stock set did. The replacement set needs to be modified IMHO. Yes we test change and retest. Sorry this is a forum to work together not a store that sells you an item with a glorious description, of a new product that you have no information about.

My test of ZDDP was a flop, but you did get the results and know what not to do. If you faill it is not the end of the world it is an opportunity to learn. Some tried the added filter and when their engine failed it is sitting on a shelf somewhere. Others are going on testing. Both folks are adding to our knowledge. I would say the filter would be a waste of my money, but if later it is found to work a certain way, I will go back and reconsider.

Just to be testing something is not an end of and to itself. I do not make a habbit of trying everything I come in contact with another way. I was just forced by circumstance to try something on our PD. No fix was available and we need something. I wish VW was shipping the solution tomorrow, but I hear no rumors that suggest it is coming. VW did make the black followers and they also fail (sorry about that). I appreciate the effort VW put in.
We have to work more and report in. Talk and work.

What has everyone done today to help our cause?

eddif

Edit:I could not make changes in the draft copy and had to use post and edit to get some changes to work.

 

[DPM]

My bet is that if you reduce tandem pump pressure sufficiently to make a difference you'll end up with cavitation issues within the PD units. Have you looked at the laser-drilled fuel inlet orifices in the PD? Pretty damn fine.

And never mind the smoke/timing/fuelling issues that might introduce, you could trash the PD plungers...

 

[DanG144]

Tandem pump discharge pressure has no bearing on this issue. It is only 100 psi or so.

Putting in 150 injectors will not impact tandem pump pressure.

The pressure on the cam is derived from pressure built in the injectors themselves.