TDI or Hybrid for me?

[fuelsipper]

I've read alot of posts on this site and see there is strong opinions, but didn't see this head to head discussion.

First about me;
I'm not trying to be green.
out of pocket $$ is the bottom line
i always buy used 3-4 years old to save money
i'd be looking at a 2003/2004/2005 tdi
i drive a Honda ST1300 cycle 8mths, 10,000 miles/yr and get 45-50 mpg.
this is the first time in my life i've cared about milage,
and i'm amazed to find that the only cars in the USA
getting 40+ are the mini hybrids and TDI's

I decided I want a winter vehicle to use here in CT, or at least 40mpg in mixed driving, and good in snow since i ski alot.

Now about the Prius,
I found from prius web discussions and talking to owners i see on the street the prius gets 45 mpg in mixed driving, even though the govt mpg is 50/60.
Not a single person i've talked to gets better then 50.
But since my goal is 40+, that would work with me.

Now how about those TDIs?
It looks like I could get 40+?
many of you do, but some of you dont.
I think I'd like the passat so that I could
drop the back seat and throw skis and bikes in the back.
My wife owned a gti for 13 years,(longer then she's known me, she keeps reminding)
and our good friend owns a gas passat.
so we'd be ready for another vw

so....
to get 40+ in a used TDI, which model/year do I need, and what do I need to do after i bring it home? Additives? Drive conservatively obviously.
which brand diesel do i use, where do i find it?
how important is ulsd+ps, what ever that means?

Let's hear all the opinions please, even those who don't get 40+ in their TDI.

 

[cowboyjack]

If your sole interest is the cheapest car you can drive? The Toyota Corolla is by far the cheapest car out there to operate. In a 2002/3/4, with a five speed, a Corolla could easily come close to 40 mpg if driven conservatively and maintenance costs are negligible. But that wasn't your question.

The biggest unknown about hybrids is... what about the batteries when they start wearing out? How much are they gonna cost? Who can work on a hybrid besides the dealer?

Even in CT, (I lived there 5 years for grad school), diesel is widely available at gas stations or any truck stop along the major highways. Try the Mayflower truckstop along I-95 for openers.

A Jetta, with a 5 speed, from any of the years you mentioned should easily get 40+ mpg. Sounds like a Jetta wagon might be what you are looking for? If I was on the east coast, I'd look in the for sale section here and get in touch with Chris (?) at Langhorne VW in Pennsylvania. Look through the recommended mechanics list, find a good independent shop and you are good to go.

Fun factor? VW hands down. VW TDIs are the cheapest FUN car you can drive. Have you driven a hybrid? Prius isn't bad, but it's nothing like a VW in the fun category.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

Fun factor? VW hands down. VW TDIs are the cheapest FUN car you can drive. Have you driven a hybrid? Prius isn't bad, but it's nothing like a VW in the fun category.

I have to correct you on this.... Honda CRXs are the cheapest FUN car you can drive. the caveat is have fun finding a used one in decent condition

 

[kcfoxie]

Let me answer this.

You want a GL, 5-speed, 03/04/05 Beetle or Golf. NO SUNROOF. (*This also means no heated seats, sorry)

You'll get 45-50MPG consistantly in a 2DR hatch, the larger cars (Jettas Passats) will vary because they often come with more options. AFTER a clutch upgrade and a new mount reinforcement, my car is getting 40-42MPG consistently for the last 3 tanks. I don't exactly drive the same each day, nor do I drive slow like many TDI owners. I have torque and I make good use of it

I know you expressed interest in a Jetta/Passat. I think if you're used to a motorcycle, you should be OK with a subcompact TDI. I am certain you will, like so many others, have a prejudice against the beetle. Put that aside and drive one, then drive a Prius. You'll be amazed at the difference in the two.

I'm seeing 02/03/04/05 TDIs with 100k miles and a manual for up to $12k but most in the $7-9k range. I know of a nice 5-speed 96/97 (Forget exact year) Passat wagon for $9900 in Chapel Hill, NC.

 

[K5ING]

You say your driving is "mixed". Can you be more specific?

Diesels love to be run at higher speed on long runs. If you have, say, a 30 mile commute on the highway, a TDI will do very well for you. If you have a 5 mile commute at lower speed in stop and go traffic, then I'd say to go with a gasser or hybrid.

Short distance, stop and go, in-town driving is the worst thing for a diesel. My car is still in great shape and still gets an honest 48mpg with 700 miles between fillups. But 95% of it's use is on the highway. No way would it have lasted this long if it spent it's time in town.

 

[ADVNTURR]

I'm in CT with you and I picked up an 03 Golf GL 2dr CPO a little over a year ago. If you can find a stick it would be the easiest way to get up into the high 40's. My auto consistently gets low 40's even with a Yakima rack on it (if a bike or skis are up there for a long period of time it can knock me down to the 39mpg range). As mentioned earlier, if you're making a descent commute then the TDI is a good choice; I'm commuting 75 miles each way (Vernon to Wilton) dealing with mostly highway speeds and the typical CT stop-n-go commute.

So to answer your question about a TDI, I would vote for:
-02-05 A4 chassis (Jetta or Golf) with a 5spd.
-Properly inflated tires
-Consistent, and relatively conservative driving (keep it close to the speed limit and don't try to take the Mustang next to you off the line)
-The brand of fuel seems to be less important than how much the place goes through (a place that sells more diesel will likely have cleaner fuel with the correct additives for the season)
-ULSD is the federally mandated norm now and the "PS" is an additive which I don't feel are necessary, but keeping the fuel system clean and tacking on a few cetane points can't hurt.

That's my $0.02

 

[highender]

agree with most posters here.

Fuelsipper:

I rented and drove a Prius for over 6 weeks.
- IT does get around 45 mpg in mixed driving.
- IT has little power to merge into traffic...especially if there is more than 1 person in the vehicle.
- it is not really "green" ,If I recall correctly, in the sense that the metals used in the battery is strip mined in Canada, shipped to be processed in Europe, then shipped to Japan for final battery production, then all this is shippped to USA> .
-Plus each Pruis has two engines..so more cost and BTUs to make...
- batteries are a big unknown, and definitely labor and energy intensive to recycle. A whole new set costs $3000 to $4000.
-unknown longevity of its engine/hybrid configuration.



TDIs
-also have slightly higher start up costs compared to toyota corolla.
- longer lasting , proven engine, rated to last at 80% load to 25,000 hours,which may translate at 40 mph avg , to 1 million miles.
- ability to use alternative fuels-
- slightly higher maintenance costs due to filter and oil.

etc...

 

[TornadoRed]

First about me;
I'm not trying to be green.
out of pocket $$ is the bottom line
i always buy used 3-4 years old to save money
i'd be looking at a 2003/2004/2005 tdi
i drive a Honda ST1300 cycle 8mths, 10,000 miles/yr and get 45-50 mpg.
(snip)
I decided I want a winter vehicle to use here in CT, or at least 40mpg in mixed driving, and good in snow since i ski alot.

Okay, you put 10k miles in eight months on your motorcycle, so I presume you plan to drive about 5k miles in the other four months.

You are NOT a candidate for either a TDI or a Prius. You will NOT save enough fuel to make either one a good choice.

The cheapest car for the winter is probably the one you already own.

 

[03_01_TDI]

and i'm amazed to find that the only cars in the USA
getting 40+ are the mini hybrids and TDI's

1st. Take a look at the new Honda Civic. I get no less than 32mpg and over last holiday trip manage 37mpg. I can get 42+ on trips with good conditions. But this is a new Civic and out of your price range.

-
Overall the most bang for the buck since your drive so little is any cheap 4cyl car with some snow tires.

Since you drive very little I'd pass on the hybrid since the batteries need to be used and charged. Looks like your car might sit for weeks at a time when you ride your bike.

A TDI might be costly but would last you forever or if you did only keep the car for 4 more years a 2003 model TDI would still be of great value and probably could be resold for the same price your paid!

 

[roflwaffle]

- longer lasting , proven engine, rated to last at 80% load to 25,000 hours,which may translate at 40 mph avg , to 1 million miles.

There would need to be some unique geography or gearing for a stock VW to be able to do that. At what power output was the lifetime measured?

To the OP, go get an older rusty small displacement 4cly car for your winter beater. Ain't nothin' cheaper'n that.

Also, the preposterous anti-hybrid rhetoric I see on these boards is as bad as the preposterous anti-diesel rhetoric I see on the the hybrid forums. So don't take what they say about hybrids to heart. The most accurate info you'll get is if ya ask the hybrid owners about hybrids and the diesel owners about diesels, but even then, a good deal of it is still suspect....

 

[scooperhsd]

fuelsipper - I'd agree with TornadoRed - neither. At only 5000 miles per year on the car, neither a hybrid nor a TDI will make up the premium you will pay for them. A good reliable USED 4 cylinder gasser is probably your best bet, money-wise and all around. In fact, if you have such a vehicle now - I'd just fix it up and keep running it - into the ground if that's what it comes to.

 

[dabear95]

Yeah, I echo some of the comments. It sounds like an emotional thing. Think about it, how do you save money by spending thousands on a new car?

Well, drive it a lot or a VERY long time but it does not sound applicable in this case.


Jason

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

If you want a car that's good in the snow, gets good mileage, and will work well in the winter I suggest a MKIII Golf 2 liter or Jetta 2 liter (gas) with a 5 speed. These cars have more ground clearance than the later cars, will get high 20s to low 30s in mixed driving, and are dirt cheap to buy. Find one on Craigslist that was a southern car (they can rust) and you'll enjoy a comfortable, roomy (bigger inside than a MKIV) and economical vehicle--as long as you are willing to care for it yourself. You'll pay such a large premium for a diesel that you'll not recover your sunk cost for the number of miles you drive. I typically tell people that if they don't drive over 20K a year a diesel's not worth it.

 

[pearse]

If you buy a TDi you will have a tough time getting BELOW 40mpg even if you beat on it 24/7.

That said, for 5k miles/year get a small gasser. My mom just got a 06 Hyundai new for $13k that is rated for 36mpg highway. My 86 VW scirocco 2 got 34 mpg regularly. Honda civics are good too.

 

[chemist93]

Indigo's advice sounds good, especially if you owe some money on your current car. It can be easier with a car loan situation to buy a MkIII Golf for $1-2k, sell your gas car you owe on yourself instead of trading it in, then buy a TDI. It can be a longer time spent, but you can walk in the bank and put your profit on that new loan. This is my plan B, in case I cannot get a good(blue book) trade in price. Another cost is insurance, the NB TDI is cheaper than the Jetta, $42 difference per 6 months, same model year and trim. The year is '02, and the GLS trim.

 

[R34TDI]

FWIW I have been driving Jetta TDIs (work car and personal cars) for over six years and spend a lot of time driving. Most of my driving has been throughout CT -- which accounts for 55-60,000 miles per year. I have been getting above 45 mpg consistantly with both work cars (2000 GL and 2001 GLS). The 2000 GL was retired at a little under 330,000 miles and was still getting over 45mpg. My "new" work car, 2001 GLS, does the same -- but it only has 165,000 miles on it. I got both cars with over 100,000 miles on them -- it's more affordable that way. They are great cars, and I personally prefer the GLS package w/leather(ette) over the GL. I also have a 2004 GLS (PD) which gets over 40 mpg -- despite certain mods which I would have thought would have lowered lowered the mileage. Bottom line: If you look at the package of durability, practicality (mpg), performance and price I think these cars are tough to beat. Best of luck on whatever you decide.

 

[slotracer577]

It comes down to how you drive. I know my TDI needs a good mix of highway milage to keep the milage over 40. I drive 80+% highway and I have never been below 40 with my 06.5.

Another choice is something like a Honda fit. Only $15K new and they get high 30's for milage. Might not be a bad choice given the premium for used TDI's.

Also a MKIII jetta does well. My 98 go mid 30's in mixed driving and high 30's on the hwy. Could have been due to the fact it only weighed 2400 lbs.

John

 

[sqdude]

If you're comparing a hybrid and TDI to every other car out there, get something like a 1986 Toyota Tercel wagon. I had one of those for 3 years, drove it all over the desert, snow, mountains, road trips, in town etc and got 40+ mpg on highway. As others have said, if you do the math and compare the diesel/hybrid up-front premium, you have to drive a ton to make it work financially. I'd highly recommend putting together a good Excel spreadsheet to get a sense of the real numbers, and remember that diesel is more expensive than gas these days. Seeing something like 60 mpg makes everyone get $ in their eyes, but there's always a catch.

Now, comparing a hybrid to a TDI, haha you're on the TDI site! I've had my car a year and a half, mostly city driving and I get around 40 in town. Highway at 75 figure 47mpg. Drive 65mph and I'll get 55mpg. The people who are getting 60+mpg are doing mods or turning off the car on a long downhill stretch, baby-ing the car, etc. Maintenance on the TDI would probably be more expensive until you hit the whole hybrid-battery issue. As others said, the fun factor is no comparison. I've driven a Prius and it was like sitting through a lecture. You can drive a TDI like you stole it and still get 38mpg. Remember: having fun is good for your body and soul.

My TDI has been awesome in the snow, never been stuck, never needed chains. It's not an off-roading car, but definitely figure getting a skidplate ($300). Get a 2003, best year in my opinion for mpg and reliability.

Oh, and even though you're not "green," sometimes biodiesel is cheaper than diesel and a TDI can run it.

 

[rotarykid]

I love diesels as I have been driving them since the early 80s but if you want cheap to own & drive car I'd go with a 10-15 year old 5 spd Corolla or Civic . They are cheap up front and cheap to drive in the long run . On these cars more miles on the clock mean less than nothing as far as the expected life of the car . The higher the miles on the clock the cheaper it will be in upfront costs but you will need to be able to turn a wrench on it to keep it in the best condition .

A 1.5-1.8 L in one of these low weight cars with a 5 spd manual trans can get pretty close to 40 mpgs with little extra effort . I don't know about today but a few years ago you get an older one of these for well less than a grand , paid $250 for my last one . Drove it for a year taught my X-wife to drive the manual trans and sold it for $1,000 after doing a little work on it .

If you want a car that is fun to drive but is going to require you to climb under it from time to time go with a VW diesel . But if you want cheap to drive with very little needed repairs go with an older gasser .

 

[domboy]

Let me answer this.

You want a GL, 5-speed, 03/04/05 Beetle or Golf. NO SUNROOF. (*This also means no heated seats, sorry)

Why no sunroof??

 

[nicklockard]

No one has mentioned it, but the Mitusbishi Lancer's from 2002 on are very light weight and get high 30's. I once rented one for a looooong round trip to Carlsbad caverns and back from Albuquerque, NM traveling at *illegally* high rates of speed with 5 people and AC on full blast.

I filled the tank to the lip (could see fuel in filler neck) when I returned it.

I was absolutely astonished: 41.3 mpg! I chit you not. Of course it was all highway driving, but I think you could easily get average 32-36 mpg with this car. That engine LOVES to run hard. I was just so impressed. Did I mention it spent considerable time at 100+ mph? Except for the stupid governer kicking in at 111 mph, 'tis a fun highway car.

I almost bought one of these but went for the Tdi's instead as I wanted the ability to burn biofuel and the better comfort/luxury/torque.

But if money is a major concern, get one of these used with a good maintenance history.

 

[kcfoxie]

Some argue this, but the added railing for the sunroof adds weight. I've heard 200 to 250 pounds, plus you lose about 2 inches of headroom in a sunroof vs no sunroof VW. It seems that the no-sunroof models are getting better economy (gas or diesel) than the sunroof models, even if the roof is never opened.

For maximum efficiency and economy, therefore, you'd want to go w/out the sunroof.

I've gotten into a debate on here before about the sunroof and decreased MPG "myth," but I've spoken with far too many mechanics who have replaced them to listen to the naysayers. If you think having a sunroof doesn't affect the vehicle weight, remove the railing system and glass yourself and weigh it. Solid sheet metal doesn't weight as much as sheet metal with a hole, reinforcements and a large tripple pane glass to cover the hole.

 

[domboy]

Thanks for the explaination kcfoxie. I wasn't sure if "no sunroof" was a weight concern, or decreased aerodynamics while driving with it open...

 

[Diesel Addict]

I agree with most things that have been said here. The cheapest car I ever owned, taking into account purchase cost, mileage and maintenance, was a 5-speed '88 Accord that I purchased with about 150K miles. Buying a TDI or Hybrid solely to save money generally makes no sense, unless you're coming from owning a newer SUV or truck. But if you want reasonable safety and comfort creatures and conserve fuel at the same time, then either one will do. I don't have much experience with the Prius but I used to own a Civic Hybrid and now I have a PD TDI. Overall I'd summarize them like this: fuel mileage is very similar (the Civic gave me about 2 more MPG in mostly highway driving), the TDI has better torque and is better for climbing grades but the Civic is clearly better in slow city traffic when it comes to mileage, the Civic has no doubt much cleaner exhaust emissions, but the TDI can be run on biodiesel, a renewable fuel. Hope this helps.

 

[kcfoxie]

The cheapest car I ever owned was the 1973 VW Super Bug. Why I sold it, I question to this day. 38MPG, cost less than $2000, and super cheap parts.