TDI in a Toyota pickup

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself


At 3:00 in the bowl, it looks like a crack.

Anyway, beer's on me when you get up here. Certainly not a melted piston which is where my money was.

Can you get some pictures looking straight down on top of the piston?
 
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greengeeker

Vendor
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Cambridge, MN
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS
To me I see a definite crack in the same location as WD on cyl#2.

If you click on the full res size of this picture it shows up better.



That is a really odd coloration on #2 piston.
 

e*clipse

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Location
Chico, CA
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Toyota TDI swap
number two looks bad, piston appears to be melted on the sides and number two combustion chamber has aluminum deposition on the valves and on the edges ... yank it and you'll see the damage..... also kinda hard to tell but it looks like number two injector was spraying a really wide pattern on the piston crown possibly hitting the cylinder walls .... if so this injector might be popping off super early or super late.... have you pop tested the injectors yet ?

I see what you're talking about, now that I look closer. I see the deposits on the valves too.

Would this keep a valve from shutting?
Or what would lead to all the air being forced through the crankcase and valves? :confused:

Also - could this have been caused by the bad injector timing in cylinder 2?

I never had the injectors pop tested yet. This has been a big lesson to pay better attention to the injectors.. :(

- E*clipse
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
I see what you're talking about, now that I look closer. I see the deposits on the valves too.

Would this keep a valve from shutting?
Or what would lead to all the air being forced through the crankcase and valves? :confused:

Also - could this have been caused by the bad injector timing in cylinder 2?

I never had the injectors pop tested yet. This has been a big lesson to pay better attention to the injectors.. :(

- E*clipse
if the piston is indeed cracked as it appears then the compression gasses would rush through the crack and into the crankcase causing the blowby you were witnessing... as for the injector being bad, did you note a huge imbalance with number two in measuring block 13 ?
 

e*clipse

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I'll go out and get some "straight down" pics of the pistons. I can't see the crack you guys are referring to, but then I don't have much experience with this...

- E*clipse
 

e*clipse

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Location
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if the piston is indeed cracked as it appears then the compression gasses would rush through the crack and into the crankcase causing the blowby you were witnessing... as for the injector being bad, did you note a huge imbalance with number two in measuring block 13 ?
Yes, when I was running VAG-COM and trying to figure out what what happening, the injection measuring blocks were VERY imbalanced - one positive, the other negative.

Actually it looks like you guys who predicted some form of piston failure were right. That #2 piston is definitely cracked with a big hole for blowby....

Here's some better shots of the carnage:





Here's some more shots of the rest of the block:


Here's cylinder1 ( starting from the accessory side )


cylinder2 (the damaged one)


cylinder3


and cylinder4 (the one that may be ok)


- E*clipse
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Take a look at the injector spray pattern on this piston:



I just don't see much of a good pattern on your pistons.
 

e*clipse

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Location
Chico, CA
TDI
Toyota TDI swap
Take a look at the injector spray pattern on this piston:



I just don't see much of a good pattern on your pistons.
Yes - that one looks nice and even; something you can't say for any of the spray patterns on my pistons. :(

So a bit I'm getting from the information greengeeker sent me is that these uneven spray patterns can result in hotspots on the pistons with failures like cracked pistons, etc. My watching the Exhaust Gas Temperature in the exhaust manifold before the turbo was just an average.

Well, here's one big lesson learned: don't go cheap on the nozzles. :eek:

Could a badly directed nozzle squirt ( where most of the diesel comes out of one hole ) result in the lubricant being washed out of the side of the cylinder? Kind of what happened on the sides of piston 2?

Do you think the rings are broken? Would it be worth pulling them for further inspection?
 

greengeeker

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Could a badly directed nozzle squirt ( where most of the diesel comes out of one hole ) result in the lubricant being washed out of the side of the cylinder? Kind of what happened on the sides of piston 2?
I would say the scuffing of piston 2 is due to the overheated piston expanding so much that it contacts the cylinder wall.
 

cyrus #1

Well-known member
Joined
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Location
St. Albert, AB
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2005 Jetta TDI
I would say the scuffing of piston 2 is due to the overheated piston expanding so much that it contacts the cylinder wall.
x2. It looks to me as if the discoloration on piston 2 was caused by extreme heat. The pattern appears to be originating from the injector location. I haven't seen discoloration like that on any of the TDI's I've had apart. :eek:

I suspect if you tested opening pressures and inspected spray patterns of the injectors you will find that one is streaming in one or two locations as opposed to spraying evenly.
 

e*clipse

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Toyota TDI swap
I looked closer at pistons 1,2,and 3. Both 1 and 3 have a small amount of scuffing on the side near piston 2.

Could the extreme overheat of piston 2 lead to the issues in pistons 1 and 3?

Also, what would lead to an injector putting out such a bad spray pattern? Would using biodiesel potentially lead to a badly clogged nozzle like this?

Could I send this injector to someone to isolate the problem?

I would really like to avoid repeating this problem. Are there any ways of recognizing this problem developing before things get this bad? :confused:

Thanks again for all your advice,

E*clipse
 

cyrus #1

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Joined
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Location
St. Albert, AB
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2005 Jetta TDI
Where do you get your biodiesel from? What percentage blend is it? Is it ASTM certified? Using Biodiesel can potentially have some negative effects, especially if the quality is dubious. Biodiesel has the potential to coke up in high heat areas much easier than petro diesel. Also, it is my understanding that high percentage blends can affect timing as well.

I see that you have already sent your injectors to DBW for calibration. This is probably the most important thing you can do but needless to say something has changed. It might be worth it to send them back and have them tested again?

Good luck with the rebuild and getting things operational again. I spent a great deal of time and money putting an ALH into my vanagon and suffered a freak timing belt failure less than a year later so I feel your pain.
 

e*clipse

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I think it would be a good idea to send the injectors to DBW. I'd like to find out what happened to them and what led up to that.

I've been running a mix of 25% to 75% biodiesel. Generally I purchase it from ASTM certified suppliers. Most of it has been from Springboard biodiesel here in Chico. When I purchase it, I get it in 100% biodiesel 5 gallon totes. I splash-mix it with the dino diesel in the tank, so the mixing is in-precise at best.

Has anyone heard of poor mixing leading to issues?

- E*clipse
 

e*clipse

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Pirate day!

Update; a few things have been happening on this....

I've swapped engines on the stand with my "new" PD from Quality German Auto Parts.

I pulled the PD injectors - which is a bit more work than the old school ones - so I could send both sets of injectors to DBW.

I've ordered the PP1043 nozzles along with a proper calibration.

So, this morning I got a call from Pete saying the nozzles are a mess - something was done incorrectly when they were originally installed.

Jesus!!:mad: Can't I do anything right with this??

The nozzles were put together incorrectly in an AJM engine - which as far as I can see w/ the google is a unique to Europe engine. Spare parts aren't available here...

It looks like I'll need the adjustment screw for the rocker and the ball pin. Problem is the ball pin is a different length than the standard one for BEW PD engines.

Ideas, anyone???
 

e*clipse

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Location
Chico, CA
TDI
Toyota TDI swap
can you just use BEW rockers ?
Good news - thing's are not as bad as I thought they were. :)

DBW will be able to use BEW pump pistons in AJM PD bodies.

The remaining issue is that the BEW pump pistons have different ends than AJM pump pistons, so the adjuster screw/ball pin that threads into the rocker will need to be changed.

I e-mailed ID parts over the weekend and got dimensions for a BEW's adjuster screw:
The length is 26.67mm the diameter is 12mm and the thread pitch is 1.25.

That's perfect, because that's almost exactly the dimensions for the AJM's adjuster screw - they're just a bit shorter and the end is very different. However, it looks like it will thread in no problem. :)
 

e*clipse

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Where do you get your biodiesel from? What percentage blend is it? Is it ASTM certified? Using Biodiesel can potentially have some negative effects, especially if the quality is dubious. Biodiesel has the potential to coke up in high heat areas much easier than petro diesel. Also, it is my understanding that high percentage blends can affect timing as well.

I see that you have already sent your injectors to DBW for calibration. This is probably the most important thing you can do but needless to say something has changed. It might be worth it to send them back and have them tested again?

Good luck with the rebuild and getting things operational again. I spent a great deal of time and money putting an ALH into my vanagon and suffered a freak timing belt failure less than a year later so I feel your pain.
I always used ASTM biodiesel from certified commercial sellers. I would use anywhere from 25% to 75% (splash mixed). The main reason I stayed away from 100% was to avoid issues with chemical incompatibilities with hoses and o-rings.

Over this weekend, I had both my "new" PD injectors and my "old" injectors over at DBW. The main job was installing and balancing some PP1043 nozzles on the PD injectors. I also sent over the old ones so he could look for problems.

Pete was absolutely convinced that using biodiesel killed the engine. He thought the coking visible on the outside of the old injectors was enough evidence and was surprised that only two of the cylinders were blown.

I was going to look into it a bit deeper around here, but I found almost nothing about biodiesel in the alt fuel forum. Biodiesel is commonly available in various mixes in Oregon, and there's not some huge problem of blowing diesels. So, given that common usage, I'm still a bit skeptical.

Also, there are a LOT of other variables going on - especially in my engine. :rolleyes: Things that could lead to coking issues could be related to timing and amount of fuel injected. You'll notice from my sig line that a lot of this isn't stock. I've changed the tune, the injectors and the injection pump. The injectors weren't using OE VW nozzles, so there's a good possibility they had a role in this. The injection pump and injectors were installed (and timing can be affected) after the tune, so the tuning map did not take this into account. The engine seemed to run just fine, and EGT's were generally low, so I didn't worry about these issues until it was too late. :(

Does anyone have any links to solid tests about biodiesel and fuel injection? PD injectors subject the fuel to nearly 30,000 psi :eek: If I use any biodiesel, it's going to be in small quantities. I mean, I'm a scientific type guy and I'd really like to see some solid testing on the subject. I really respect experienced opinions like DBW's, and will probably run with that in the end.
 

jimbote

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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
DBW is the forum's very own "chicken little", and while he is very knowledgeable and no doubt does meticulous work, he has an unnatural bent against biofuels and uses FUD to convey his point... there are far more pd's, VE's and other diesel makes successfully running bio with zero issues than Pete's itty bitty teeny weeny sample size could ever negate ...
 
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cumminsfromthecold

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Oct 27, 2006
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HumCo
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'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab
Biodiesel almost certainly didn't kill your engine, jeesh. We fear what we don't understand. :rolleyes: Naysayers can prove it if they're so dang certain.

How's it going, e*clipse?
 

e*clipse

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Chico, CA
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DBW is the forum's very own "chicken little", and while he is very knowledgeable and no doubt does meticulous work, he has an unnatural bent against biofuels and uses FUD to convey his point... there are far more pd's, VE's and other diesel makes successfully running bio with zero issues than Pete's itty bitty teeny weeny sample size could ever negate ...
I agree DBW is definitely anti-biofuel.

The main concern I have is that he did make some good points when we were talking about it. Specifically, the issue of Biodiesel's ability to resist high pressure and temperature. Both temperature and pressure are significantly higher on the PD's vs the 1Z's.

Would you have any links that show specifications for biodiesel's maximum pressure and temperature it can handle within the injectors?

Thanks a bunch,
E*clipse
 

e*clipse

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Location
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Toyota TDI swap
Biodiesel almost certainly didn't kill your engine, jeesh. We fear what we don't understand. :rolleyes: Naysayers can prove it if they're so dang certain.

How's it going, e*clipse?
I'm doing ok. It's turned into a bit more work than I expected to replace the 1Z with a PD.

Would you have any info about Biodiesel's maximum temperature and pressure that it can withstand within the injectors?

I'm trying to approach this as methodically as possible. I would love to run biodiesel in the new(ish) engine, but it looks like it requires a bit more looking into.

- E*clipse
 

e*clipse

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Location
Chico, CA
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Toyota TDI swap
need I mention the reason why we should pop test our injectors periodically to check their spray patterns?

This would certainly be a good example of why to check the spray pattern. :eek:

1) how frequently would you recommend checking? (I had no obvious warning)
2) If there is a good warning (poor starting, smoke, etc etc) what is it?
3) For those of us without the equipment/expertise - who would you recommend?

Thanks a bunch,

E*clipse
 

jimbote

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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
eclipse, i have friends who ran and are running bio in pd's, some for almost a decade with zero issues...and we are talking b100 in the summer and high concentrations in the winter... i don't think you have anything to worry about
 

Wally

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Apr 12, 2001
Location
The Springs, CO
TDI
98 NB, 96 and 97 B4Vs, & 03 A4V
I'm with these guys on the BD. The first few years I was on here, as my homemade use was well known, my fuel would get blamed for B4 door handle problems and everything else. Now, making it since late 90's in my garage, cumulative over half million miles, with 3 cars over 100k miles on my stuff, I say Pfffff! Prove it.

Also, Bio-beetle rental car has how many PD Jettas in their fleet and they are all Biodiesel fueled.

Also, so long as your pump petro-fuel is quality (and yes, with this much experience, that IS the weak link - usually water) you may mix any ratios with impunity.

Good luck with the injectors!
 

Wally

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Apr 12, 2001
Location
The Springs, CO
TDI
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Happy New Year, Everyone!

e*clipse,
My apologies, I did that thing that I hate when others do to me, which is read the last page and then pipe up with what I "know" about it.
I finally got caught up last night and that is a Huge bummer. Monday morning QB, I agree that your #2 cyl and piston are toast and I also agree that the heat caused your #1 and #3 scoring due to expansion.
Good luck with it.

Any reason, other than the new challenge, you don't put another 1Z in?

Anyways, best of luck with it.
 
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