TDI Cam Timing Adjustment (for rough idle) How-to (with pics)

noble

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Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Location
EU
TDI
1.9TDI (BXE)
What is your opinion? I have cam timing now on 0.0 but I have judder problem on idle, it appear when I have engine with normal temperature and normal use of AC (with FULL AC - LOW TEMP - there are no judder because there are need of power from cam on idle). Fuel economy is 45-51MPG. Before 0.0 it was -2.4 just after timing belt change. Then after 5000 miles judder on idle appears and in service they changed cam timing from -2.4 to 0.0.

Should I advanced cam timing to 2-3 that I got smoother idle? What happend to fuel economy? What about EGT's and smoke?
 
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Oldbeaver

Active member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Chile
TDI
Skoda 1.9 Octavia TDI 2009
TDI Cam Timing Adjustment: optimum

What is your opinion? I have cam timing now on 0.0 but I have judder problem on idle, it appear when I have engine with normal temperature and normal use of AC (with FULL AC - LOW TEMP - there are no judder because there are need of power from cam on idle). Fuel economy is 45-51MPG. Before 0.0 it was -2.4 just after timing belt change. Then after 5000 miles judder on idle appears and in service they changed cam timing from -2.4 to 0.0.

Should I advanced cam timing to 2-3 that I got smoother idle? What happend to fuel economy? What about EGT's and smoke?

I have exactly the same engine as you do. After experimenting with the position for a time, decided to leave it at 0.0, based on another paramenter you should measure as well: fuel consumption on idle. Mine is 0.4 lt/h at present.

I made several positions of cam and measure fuel consumtion. After that I made a graph trying to find optimum position. It was +0.5.

However, I couldn´t put my cam on that position. When I moved the cam, it went too far or too low. The movement must be very tiny, but as it present resistance, difficult to perform even with a long tool. The best fuel consumption I got was 0.4 lt/h at 0.0. Then I decided to leave it there.

(The graphic optimum position of cam determined in the graph said I could got a minimum consumption of about 0.35 lt/h at the position +0.5 of the torsion value).

However, in practice, any movement to left or right (advance or retard) of torsion value position 0.0 I had produced an increment on fuel consumption to 0.5 or 0.6 lt/h or even more. It was even difficult for me to recover the 0.0 torsion value position and 0.4 lt/h I have gotten previously.

I would suggest to measure yr fuel consumption and write to the Forum again. I would not care about judder unless it is severe.

OldBeaver
 
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noble

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Location
EU
TDI
1.9TDI (BXE)
I will check that idle fuel consumption later. I think you have made it with AC off. I think it was 0.7 lt/h with AC on now.

Your found -0.5 makes sense. I have seen total two (one BXE and one BKC) where there are hand writed mark -0.5 on sticker of timing belt cover.
 

Oldbeaver

Active member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Chile
TDI
Skoda 1.9 Octavia TDI 2009
Correction to Cam Timing position

I will check that idle fuel consumption later. I think you have made it with AC off. I think it was 0.7 lt/h with AC on now.

Your found -0.5 makes sense. I have seen total two (one BXE and one BKC) where there are hand writed mark -0.5 on sticker of timing belt cover.

CORRECTION:

I have said that my optimum position (graphic) was -0.5. Reviewing my paper I checked it was +0.5 instead.

I edited, corrected and completed my previous posting, you may check.

However, as others said before, each car is a particular case. You may find optimum adjustment at a different position than me. The mechanic movement of this device has some slack.

OldBeaver
 

asap03

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Location
Romania/Europe
TDI
G5 1.9TDI PD 2007 BXE
Guys, I have a question. IQ in group 01 on PD engines have the same meaning as on VE engines, that is a lower value at idle actually means more fuel injected and a higher value means less fuel injected?
 
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Oldbeaver

Active member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Chile
TDI
Skoda 1.9 Octavia TDI 2009
IQ vs fuel injected.

Guys, I have a question. IQ in group 01 on PD engines have the same meaning as on VE engines, that is a lower value at idle actually means more fuel injected and a higher value means less fuel injected?

Can you remember what states IQ for in VAGCOM?

Oldbeaver
 

asap03

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Location
Romania/Europe
TDI
G5 1.9TDI PD 2007 BXE
Injection Quantity.
Here is the deal. I have the European BXE engine.
This summer I had my Torsion Value at -2. My tuner told me it is a bit retarded and advance it to 0 to +1 to anticipate a tune. I did that, but lately I have noticed pretty high values for Idle Stabilization (group 013) on cylinder 3: 0.71 to 0.85; One year ago it was 0.3;
I backed it yesterday to -2 again and the idle stabilization on cylinder 3 dropped to 0.49 to 0.54; but it is still high in my opinion(compared to last year).

Now here is what I have found this evening additionally. I went to a drive to get the engine hot, then I went to my garage and removed the egr hose. Started the engine and let it idle. I put my hand in front of the egr metal pipe and the intake blows back air!!! Is this ok? In my opinion there should be only vacuum, right? It blows back air in a cycle, not continuously.

The car still drives ok but I have lost the low end torque that diesel cars should have about three years ago.
 

Oldbeaver

Active member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Chile
TDI
Skoda 1.9 Octavia TDI 2009
Injection quantity

Injection Quantity.
Here is the deal. I have the European BXE engine.
This summer I had my Torsion Value at -2. My tuner told me it is a bit retarded and advance it to 0 to +1 to anticipate a tune. I did that, but lately I have noticed pretty high values for Idle Stabilization (group 013) on cylinder 3: 0.71 to 0.85; One year ago it was 0.3;
I backed it yesterday to -2 again and the idle stabilization on cylinder 3 dropped to 0.49 to 0.54; but it is still high in my opinion(compared to last year).

Now here is what I have found this evening additionally. I went to a drive to get the engine hot, then I went to my garage and removed the egr hose. Started the engine and let it idle. I put my hand in front of the egr metal pipe and the intake blows back air!!! Is this ok? In my opinion there should be only vacuum, right? It blows back air in a cycle, not continuously.

The car still drives ok but I have lost the low end torque that diesel cars should have about three years ago.
Every car torsion value for best fuel efficency is different. I have the same european engine you have. In my case the best value I got is 0,4 at 0.0 torsion value. The value you had is a record. The value you have is very good.

You may even get the same physical position of the thing as you had originally, but the torsion value and fuel consumption may be different. There are mechanichal slacks. So if you want to recover 0.3, you must be very systematic and make very tiny moves each time.

Never have touch the EGR recirculation but for cleaning it a bit. There is people that limits it putting a barrier.for getting better efficiency while keeping emissions low. Look in this site:
http://passofttouran.blogspot.com/2011/10/limpieza-egr.html
It is in spanish, but you will understand it clearly in the pictures.

Before you try this mod, please be systematic and record all yr present fuel consumption as to compare lately. Do not make more simultaneous mods. Just make one at a time. (This applies to any mod.)

After you record yr present fuel efficiency, proceed with the EGR mod or any other mod.

The correct way to measure fuel yield is:

a) At idle, using VAGCOM and the parameters you are currently using.

b) On the road, at cruise control speed, on 1 km flat, at 70 km/h or such in 6th speed. Forth and back, and you then must calculate the mean mileage of fuel.
Use trip mean fuel yield in both directions. Don´t use real time consumption as it varies too much.

The correct way is: start from 0 speed, and once you get 70 km/h, engage cruise control, reset mean fuel yield to zero and drive for 1 km. The final mean fuel yield is the one that counts. Write it down.
Drive in reverse direction on the same tract of road and do the same. This will compensate for wind and slope variations influence.
Calculate the total mean. Write it down. This is yr present, REAL, on the road, cruise control fuel yield.

My finding is that there is a direct relation between the two above. So, a) is a very good predictor of b). But it is good to measure fuel yield using b) sometimes, to feel you are doing well and to show to yr friends.

Once you know exactly what is yr present fuel efficiency, use it as a trustable starting point.

Then procced with the mods.

After any mod, repeat the measures and compare.


Good luck and continue sharing yr findings.

OldBeaver
 
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leeanderin

New member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
2008 Mk5 VW Golf 1.9TDI (bxe engine)
I too am currently experimenting with torsion values, i am in the united kingdom and have a bxe engine golf mk5 after timing belt change torsion was set at -3.4 with an idle fuel consumption of 0.4 lt/hr was concerned it was out of spec so adjusted it to -0.5 now idle consumption gone up to 0.6lt/hr going to see how it affects my full tank mileage but mfd is reporting a worse mpg,Do european cars run a more a more negative/retarded torsion value than none euro cars? cant find a lot of info for the bxe engine, i also a bit worried that the camshaft sprocket bolts are getting a bit tired from all the loosening and re-torquing of them.
 

Totals

New member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Location
Bristol
TDI
Audi A4 2.0 170
Hi all, Im trying to get my head around this. I have a Euro Audi A4 2.0 170 (BRD engine code). The car is suffering with rough idle, longer than normal crank time and blue smoke during warm up (unburnt fuel). I checked my torsion value with VAGCOM and I have + 4.11


Is this too advanced? Ive read that it should be set between -3 and +3 so why do people talk of 4.9 as optimum.

I look forward to your response. Thanks.
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Firstly you need to remove your K&N filter and install the stock box back. It might be idling bad because of the faulty MAF.
 

Oldbeaver

Active member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Chile
TDI
Skoda 1.9 Octavia TDI 2009
Remove yr K&N filter

Firstly you need to remove your K&N filter and install the stock box back. It might be idling bad because of the faulty MAF.

I agree 100%.

This engines are jewels, you cannot replace a sensor with a tin.
 

Oldbeaver

Active member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Chile
TDI
Skoda 1.9 Octavia TDI 2009
Special tool best for cam adjustment

Well, after reading the rough idle thread, I finally did my cam timing adjustment. I took pictures of the mechanical part of the adjustment, my computer screen on my laptop doesn't show up very well on my camera, so maybe someone else can upload those pictures. Anyway, here is a little writeup on the adjustment.

Before starting) Get your vagcom fired up, and with the car warmed up and idling, go to the Engine measuring blocks, group 4, and the 4th box over (It is the furthest rightward idle stabilization box) and see what your value is. It is supposed to be between 2-5 (positive values, not negative). Your adjustments ARE NOT to be done according to the 2nd box "ign timing" box (I did this at first and realized it wouldn't change). Also, my car could go to 8.9 on the idle stabilization you are watching and still start, so the car will let it run too far advanced.

1) Pop the hood and remove the engine cover (just like you have to do on most anything lol)

2) Find the boost hose that runs in front of the timing belt cover, and using a screw driver or, as I found easier, a paint can opener, pry the clips on the boost hose ends off all the way.


Engine side of the boost hose


Intercooler side of the boost hose

You will see the clip I am talking about is a thin silver wirey piece. These two pictures show the clip removed and slid back.

3) Undo the T-30 bolt that holds the boost pipe onto the head. (The only torx bit you will encounter in this repair!)


The torx bit

4) Lightly pull up on the fuel and coolant hoses which are in the little clips on the plastic part of the boost pipe

5) Wiggle the boost pipe out from the engine bay. Mine had a good coating of oil in it, which was really surprising to me, but the good news was the cleanliness of the egr throttling butterfly and the part of the intake/EGR system I could see. All I had was just a little coating of soot on one side of the inside. Also, a good time to make sure the butterfly is working fine.



6) Undo the two spring clips which hold the top half of the timing belt cover on. There is one that is easy to see right in front of you when you get the boost pipe out of the way, but there is a second one directly opposite of the front one on the back of the cover. Both are accelable with a shorter screw driver, but you can pop them with just your fingers too.


The back one is right in the middle of this picture


The front clip
*Note, the clips are attached to the plastic cover, so don't pull on the wrong end and break something.

7)Pull the timing cover slightly upward so it clears the cam pulley, and then wiggle it out of the engine bay (I know that doesn't sound really formal or manual-like, but "wiggle" is about the best term for describing how to get these things out of this space).


Top timing belt cover off!

8) Loosen the 3 smaller bolts with a 13mm socket and ratchet (or a wrench if you so wish)



9) Using an 18mm socket on the center bolt (or a wrench I guess if you can get it to fit), turn the cam sprocket slightly clockwise (It will kind of slip loose all of a sudden, so be ready to quit applying pressure and it will take quite a bit of pressure to get it to turn). Once you get it turned about 1/8 of an inch, tighten the 3 bolts down to 18 ftlbs and fire up the engine (make sure you are not in a dusty environment, if you are, then reconnect the boost hose and make sure you put towels in all the connections exposed and in the ends of the boost pipe).


18mm socket

10) Your Engine measuring block group 4, furthest right box should read between -2.5 and 2.5 (changed to updated spec). I got mine to 4.9 (again, engine fully warmed up and idling WITHOUT A/C OR DEFROSTERS OR ANY OTHER ELECTRICAL/ENGINE LOADS (this applies for the initial reading also) (I still have it set on this, will probably change over Christmas Break).

11) If you have a number higher than positive 5, then you have advanced the timing too much. If your car doesn't start, you have advanced the timing a fair bit too far. Don't panic though, it is easy to tune back in. If your timing is not between 2-5 yet, then repeat the last steps to advance it more.

12) If you went too far, then loosen the three bolts on the cam pulley again. Now, there are two ways to do this. You may have lock with just turning the center bolt counter clockwise, but if you are like me, I had the bolt begin to loosen (again, if this happens, don't panic, just retorque the bolt). You can also, loosen the 3 bolts, then get in the car, and just barely flip the starter. This causes the pulley to go to the full retarded position in the bolt slots, so you can start from scratch again. Now go about advancing it to spec.

If you have an MFD display with MPG, it may need to be recallibrated, I cannot say for sure personally, but have read others have had a problem with it. I noticed the power band seemed to go to redline now, maybe a hair past. Also, the car is a lot smoother idling, seems to have more torque at idle, and sounds a hair quiter at idle.

Reassembly, just reverse these instructions. Make sure you slide the timing belt cover down, under the bottom cover. It takes some "wiggling" to get it back in, but it usually lines itself up nicely. Also, watch the wire that runs right by the top camshaft pulley. Make sure it is OUTSIDE the cover.

Tools I used:


(paint opener, T-30 torx driver, 13mm socket, 18mm socket)

If you have any questions, let me know.

Hurst
You better use a cam timing holding tool, which will allow you to make tiny adjustments.

Don´t know how to attach picture here. Never worked for me.

Oldbeaver
 

leusgs

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Location
Calgary, Alberta
TDI
06 BRM, 00 ALH
Firstly you need to remove your K&N filter and install the stock box back. It might be idling bad because of the faulty MAF.
Will do. There's no MAF fault code or anything - although I agree the filter oil can be problematic for the MAF. I learned this after I already had the K&N in there and just haven't replaced it with a paper filter yet.
 

gabsza

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Location
Warrington
TDI
Passat b5
Hello folks!
I have problem with my timing. When synchro angle is on 0.0-0.6 engine sound like mifering. When its 5.5-7.7 sounds right to me, but its use well more fuel. Could u guys explain me how its possible?
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
Hello folks!
I have problem with my timing. When synchro angle is on 0.0-0.6 engine sound like mifering. When its 5.5-7.7 sounds right to me, but its use well more fuel. Could u guys explain me how its possible?
do you have the lock tools to set the timing to top dead center. Make sure the timing pulley is central in the 3 screw slots. If you do this you should find the misfire or start problem will go away.
see post #4 and 5
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=303096
 

Tony Soprano 1966

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Location
Wales
TDI
Golf MK5 TDI SE PD
So if I have read this thread correctly,the optimum torsion value should be close to 0.0,but some European models run better with a slightly more retarded setting?And,a more retarded setting = more torque and more fuel economy?Mine is a 04 PD BKC and is set at -3.4,there is amazing torque,decent idle,but the fuel economy is terrible,less than 40mpg.As the TB was changed before I got the car,I dont know is its the torsion setting thats affecting the bad mpg.Is it worth trying to set it closer to 0.0?Can anyone with a BKC engine relate?
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
I had the BKC engine. I couldn't boast of good fuel economy even when I was on my vacation doing some highway trips. It always sucked compared to others. Looks like it's such a nature of this particular engine.

I also got it with the TB changed so no ideas of the original timing but I think it was at -2.9 or so. Of course, I found paint marks on the pulleys so no tools were used when the previous TB job was done. While I was there, I tried to set ot to 0.0. I came to -0.5, then 1.5, then 1.0 before I finally got it to 0.0 at idle.

Shortly after that, I had the timing belt replaced along with all the related components using the proper tools. With crank and cam locks it came out steady at 0.0 without any adjustments.

So I'd suggest you try the 0.0 setting and see if anything improves.
 

Tony Soprano 1966

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Location
Wales
TDI
Golf MK5 TDI SE PD
Thanks for the reply Henrick.So after you replaced the TB and set torsion value to 0.0,was there any improvement in fuel economy?Because I cannot believe this car is doing less than 40mpg,and dont forget that many people on here say thats an acceptable mpg for this engine,but thats because they are using U.S gallons to calculate,and not Imperial gallons.Theres a difference of 11 mpg there!In other words, in U.S gallons im only getting 29mpg,which is ridiculous.According to the manual,the combined fuel consumption for this car is 5.6l per 100km,(42 mpg),so I guess I`m not far from that,maybe this is the price to pay for cleaner emissions,PD versus CR etc.A small petrol engine would have been more efficient than this.. :(
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
I didn't do any adjustments. After the TB job, the timing was spot on 0.0 without requiring any fine tuning.

Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to the fuel economy. It sucked on that car and I didn't want to get on my nerves each fillup. So I simply didn't do the calculations often.

But in general, I couldn't achieve great fuel economy with that engine. I think it was averaging 33 US MPG
 

Bosazga

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Location
Portland metro
TDI
1999.5 Jetta GL MT5 black
This is a great instruction! I have a shake going on in my 199.5 Mk4 as well. How do I fix that? I'm a newbie and don't have a VAG-COM Is it easier to just pay a trustworthy TDI mechanic?

Thanks!
 

Ms9603

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Location
Savannah, Ga
TDI
2012 Golf 2door
When I look at Vcds engine measurements block 4-"main injection" I do not see a torsion value. The boxes from left to right are engine speed (828), injection start (5.3 ATDC), injection duration (550), and high fuel pressure (336 bar). The four box over is the high fuel pressure. Have they updated vcds since this and moved the value? My car is a 2012 golf engine code is cja. It has developed a rougher idle and fuel mileage has gone from 46-47 mpg w/o ac due to mild temps to 40 mpg with ac (summer now). If I remember correctly it got 43 with ac last summer. I also recently had the compressor changed due to a stuck open refrigerant valve and replaced the MAF sensor. Also the car seems to not have the get up and go it used to have. Thanks in advance!
 

roj7782

New member
Joined
Dec 13, 2016
Location
nj
TDI
2005 jetta BEW
CAM question

My timing belt busted and I'm replacing it, but the crank and Cam obviously dont move in sync right now. My cam sprocket is at about 9 oclock, the little crown looking thing, can I forward the cam from the bolt without busting the camshaft?
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
My timing belt busted and I'm replacing it, but the crank and Cam obviously dont move in sync right now. My cam sprocket is at about 9 oclock, the little crown looking thing, can I forward the cam from the bolt without busting the camshaft?
Well, when you take the head off to have the damaged valves replaced, you can set the crank to TDC.
 

nokivasara

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Location
Sweden @ Lat 61N
TDI
Tiguan 4-motion, Golf mk7
I've been playing with the torsion value on both of our cars and the more I think about it the more confused I get.
My Skoda was at -3.9 the first time I checked, so I adjusted it to 0.0, having read just 1/3 of this thread at that time. Power was ok, but fuel economy took a big hit.
Right now I have it at -1.97, we'll see how that changes things.
The values in block 13 was pretty much identical @0.0 and right now @-1.97, also the l/hr numbers in block 15.3 are the same, 0.6l/hr.
With the TV set at 0.0 the onboard computer mileage was 100% accurate.

The Golf was at -2.79 and it got worsened fuel economy with TV set at -0.51

What I don't get is that how can european cars needs negative numbers for best power/economy when the US cars doesn't. Henrick found out that there are different hubs so that may explain some of it but it still seems strange that most european PD's hover at -2 to -4, why not have that adjusted with the software, if they have different hardware?
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Negative torsion value is not something unseen on Euro PDs. I have seen plenty of them, and 80% of them have something negative in there.
I recall a VW Caddy van which had -4.4, the biggest negative I've ever seen.

Measuring block 15.3 is a good premature measure about your fuel economy. If you do mostly city driving and don't do any racing, I'd suggest finding a "sweet spot" where the momentary reading of consumption is 0.2-0.4 l/h. That will give you the best fuel economy in city.
 
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