TDI Cam Timing Adjustment (for rough idle) How-to (with pics)

[Henrick]

Guys... I devoted some time and made a research. It looks like the camshaft "hub" is different between engine codes. This part, I suppose, aligns camshaft. Probably that's why why have different results on different engines with same timing value. I think camshaft hubs differ for "factory" timing to be accurate. Some engines were designed to have retarded timing, other advanced, etc. So I made a list of engine codes and hubs (P/Ns) used. All we need to do is to find the "sweet spot" for each engine/hub. So here comes the list:

AUY, BEW, BHW - 038 109 239
BRM, BXE - 038 109 239 L
BKC - 038 109 239 D
BKD - 03G 109 239 B (intake), 03G 109 240 (exhaust)
BKP - VIN split at MY2006-2007. Intake for 2006 and earlier: 03G 109 239 B. 2007 and later: 03G 109 239 C. Exhaust same for all: 03G 109 240

If anyone's got any other engine code not listed here, please write it and I'll try to look it up.

 

[Oldbeaver]

Torsion value vs fuel yield. Last findings.

Hello,

I use to go to a gym from home, some days, early in the morning. Everytime I do this, I try to beat the record of mean fuel yield from home to the sport club. By best performance before cam fine timing via modifying torsion value was 21 km/lt from home to the entrance of the club, when I didn´t have any stop due to traffic.

Normaly I get 19 km/lt only or less. It will depend on interruptions and stops due to traffic, as I try to drive the same everytime.

Today was the first day after cam timing I drove to the club. The result was amazing: 25.3 km/lt . And there was one stop in my way due to traffic. This means I will surely improve that record.

The outcome is so big for a simple adjustment that cost me just two tools for a total sum of 80 dollars (and I kept the tools), that I think difficult to find other most profitable "mod" than this. Maybe a good driving could be the only exception.

I took some pictures, but they are the same of others I have seen published in the net already. The only difference is that I made three marks with a pencil, so I was able to return back to a previous better position when the last one produced a worst fuel consumption.

I also did a 80 km roundtrip with three people at about 80 km/h mean speed. The mean yield of the roundtrip was 25.1 km/lt.

Let us see if this performance maintains for a total tank also, then I can say it is a breaking point for my car. My expectations are for an improvement of about 20% which I cannot believe was possible.

All the best, a happy Oldbeaver

 

[FXDL]

My understanding is that the cam should be timed when engine and all is cold as the timing when cold is will be diff., at operating temp. You will get diff., readings from cold and hot as in my case on my car the readings do change for sure.

 

[Henrick]

My understanding is that the cam should be timed when engine and all is cold as the timing when cold is will be diff., at operating temp. You will get diff., readings from cold and hot as in my case on my car the readings do change for sure.

As far as I have observed for PD engines the Torsion value does not change regardless of the temperature.

 

[whitedog]

As far as I have observed for PD engines the Torsion value does not change regardless of the temperature.

No reason it should since it is a physical setting.

 

[FXDL]

A new cam, lifters, timming belt and both cooling fans installed in my 2006 Jetta PD. After running for some time checked the timming. After adjusting the cam timming again my mech found on the site where he checks when needed to adjust it when stone cold. The service manaul says nothing and on the site it says set the cam timming when cold and it should be 0to 4 BTDC. When we adjusted it when the engine was at norm operating temp was all over the place anywhere from ATDC to BTDC. When cold it reads at 9 Degs., BTDC. WE will adjust Sat., morn., after the car again sits over night, to night.
We want 0-4 Degs BTDC. As it is 9 Degs BTDC is way too much, lots of pull on the highway, but 1st and 2nd not so good.

 

[whitedog]

Since you mention BTDC, I am wondering if your mechanic is looking at the same thing that is being discussed here. I am thinking that what you are talking about is injection timing which is different than cam timing.

 

[FXDL]

When I say timming, it is the cam timming as shown on the lap top. The cam as you already know can being adjusted and it is that timming. Injection timming is run by the senser on the rear main seal which tells the computer when to open the injector. The cam in the case of a PD, pumps up the fuel pressure for when the injector is timed to open by the computer. The cam really does most of the work, but the computer is the brains and tells the injectors when to open but if the cam is not set up wright[timmed] then everything is not going to run very good over all. Everyone have a great week-end eh.

 

[whitedog]

When I say timming, it is the cam timming as shown on the lap top. The cam as you already know can being adjusted and it is that timming. Injection timming is run by the senser on the rear main seal which tells the computer when to open the injector. The cam in the case of a PD, pumps up the fuel pressure for when the injector is timed to open by the computer. The cam really does most of the work, but the computer is the brains and tells the injectors when to open but if the cam is not set up wright[timmed] then everything is not going to run very good over all. Everyone have a great week-end eh.

What this thread is talking about is in measuring group 4, block 4 labeld torsion. What your guy is talking about is measuring group 4, block 2. Everything you said is exactly correct except that adjusting the cam isn't adjusting the timing in block 2, it's adjusting the "torsion" in block 4.

 

[Oldbeaver]

Different engines, codes, Hub ...?

Guys... I devoted some time and made a research. It looks like the camshaft "hub" is different between engine codes. This part, I suppose, aligns camshaft. Probably that's why why have different results on different engines with same timing value. I think camshaft hubs differ for "factory" timing to be accurate. Some engines were designed to have retarded timing, other advanced, etc. So I made a list of engine codes and hubs (P/Ns) used. All we need to do is to find the "sweet spot" for each engine/hub. So here comes the list:

AUY, BEW, BHW - 038 109 239
BRM, BXE - 038 109 239 L
BKC - 038 109 239 D
BKD - 03G 109 239 B (intake), 03G 109 240 (exhaust)
BKP - VIN split at MY2006-2007. Intake for 2006 and earlier: 03G 109 239 B. 2007 and later: 03G 109 239 C. Exhaust same for all: 03G 109 240

If anyone's got any other engine code not listed here, please write it and I'll try to look it up.

Henrick,

What are you trying to say? What is this code 038 109 239 L for BXE engine, for example?

I understand that different design engines may have different adjustment of cam timing. This makes sense to me. But I am not sure what do you mean with "hub", and these codes. Please, explain further.

Oldbeaver

 

[Henrick]

Look at this piece: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-VW-Audi-Golf-Caddy-A3-camshaft-pulley-TDI-/400174252086 . This is what I call hub. This part is located behind the camshaft pulley, near cylinder head. As you can see in the picture, it has got a locating hole at around 9 o'clock. I suspect that between the mentioned engine codes the locating hole (this hole is used to lock camshaft in position) might be slightly in different position. E.g. 1 mm to one or another side. This is enough to affect the timing (torsion) during TB job. Just an idea, no real experiments.

 

[Oldbeaver]

Different hubs in TDI engines

Look at this piece: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-VW-Audi-Golf-Caddy-A3-camshaft-pulley-TDI-/400174252086 . This is what I call hub. This part is located behind the camshaft pulley, near cylinder head. As you can see in the picture, it has got a locating hole at around 9 o'clock. I suspect that between the mentioned engine codes the locating hole (this hole is used to lock camshaft in position) might be slightly in different position. E.g. 1 mm to one or another side. This is enough to affect the timing (torsion) during TB job. Just an idea, no real experiments.

Henrick,

Perfectly well understood! It makes sense to me. Thank you for the explanation.

Oldbeaver

 

[plavis]

Hi to everyone. I read this whole thread from begining and I have a question. My TDI is PD ATD 74kW, and at idle, fully warm, my synchro angle is mostly 0.6 but jumps to 1.2. Is this OK?


I'm not fully satisfied with fuel economy and from Oldbeaver posts I concluded that timing should be 0.0 but his engine is different. I will trie to set my a car to 0.0, but first I would like to know reason for non constant reading.

 

[whitedog]

I would guess that there is a wiring issue. Since it's mostly at 0.6, I would use that as a starting point then check your adjustments using the numb er that shows most often.

 

[plavis]

Just saw that this is for MK5? Sorry

 

[Oldbeaver]

Torsion value in TDI PD

Hi to everyone. I read this whole thread from begining and I have a question. My TDI is PD ATD 74kW, and at idle, fully warm, my synchro angle is mostly 0.6 but jumps to 1.2. Is this OK?


I'm not fully satisfied with fuel economy and from Oldbeaver posts I concluded that timing should be 0.0 but his engine is different. I will trie to set my a car to 0.0, but first I would like to know reason for non constant reading.

Flavis, do you mean that yr torsion value at idle is 0.6 and, that after a while, while in idle, it jumps to 1.2, no reason?

Please, confirm.

Oldbeaver

 

[plavis]

Yes, at idle, fully warm, no load torsion value is 0.6 and jumps to 1.2 then 0.0 (just noticed) then return to 0.6 with no particular reason. Most of time is 0.6

 

[Oldbeaver]

"Adapting torsion value" in Bora

Yes, at idle, fully warm, no load torsion value is 0.6 and jumps to 1.2 then 0.0 (just noticed) then return to 0.6 with no particular reason. Most of time is 0.6

Flavis,

Well, well, it sounds like yr torsion value automatically adapts.
It is possible, as yr engine is different of mine.

There are some gentlemen in Skoda factory that may know about this issue. I will send you a private message with contacts.

They don´t like to answer tech questions much, and always say that any change you make to the car cancel all warranties. So, be very careful and specific to question.

Anyway, I will check in my log files to see if my torsion value adapts or vary also.

Best,

Oldbeaver

 

[slamhouse]

The belt stretches by about a tooth for every half revolution of the crank shaft because of the camshaft driven unit injectorsbuilding 30k psi. And right when that happens, that cylinder fires, driving the crankshaft. So with those two happening at the same time(camshaft slows while crankshaft speeds up) the belt stretches by upwards of 3degrees.

Your sensor might just be picking up this stretch that's taking place, or your timing belt could be loose allowing the camshaft to play around some.

 

[plavis]

Hm,
I changed toothed belt 20kkm ago (two years) on authorised service. It's now very cold weather outside and when get some warmer weather I will remove toothed belt cover to check.

Can it be bad sensor, or not properly mounted or dirty?

 

[slamhouse]

A dirty sensor or if the ring it reads is dirty, it could cause erratic readings. Try using compressed air and blow out the area.

 

[plavis]

I'll try but in a next few days it's going to be veeery cold. Now is -10C (14F) and it's going to be similary next few days. I'll be back

 

[hiloran]

Did not want to start new topic I think this is close enough....


Timing belt runs on engine side of the camshaft sprocket. Side of the belt flushes with the side of the sprocket. It doesn´t seem to touch anywhere. How exact is the belt tracking for tension. Pointer on the tensioner is about 5mm on tighter side of that notch instructed, On top of that smaller back plate.

Pictures are not from my car but to explain my finglish a bit
Instructed setting. In my case pointer is little nit more right.
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/a5/tb/tb26.jpg
My belt runs like this
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/a5/tb/tb13.jpg

Is the belt tracking just cosmetic?
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=69225

 

[slamhouse]

The belt tracking you are observing is perfectly normal, I have yet to see a belt that doesnt ride flush with the back of the camshaft sprocket. The alignment comes from the tensioner which depicts where the belt will track so no worries

 

[hiloran]

That´s what I tought. What about the tensioner setting. It seem to go abit over the scale to tighter side after driving engine to temp. I did not use torque wrench to tighten the tensioner nut. I´m not sure If I should have. After cranking few seconds with cool engine tensioners pointer seem to go back to notch

 

[slamhouse]

It depends on the style of tensioner you have. A hydraulic tensioner just needs to be tightened down and the hydraulics do the rest.

A mechanical tensioner, like the one on my car, has a arrow that you allign in-between two marks which is the ending tension. These MUST be tightened down accurately and all TTY nuts replaced.

 

[hiloran]

thx m8. I shoudn´t read forums afterwards just loosing good night sleep:

Is the stud bolt in tensioner changed often on 2.0TDI engines. It doesn´t come with the BKD kit like in older diesel engine timing belt kits.

 

[whitedog]

all TTY nuts replaced.

No such thing as TTY nuts.

Lock nuts, yes. TTY nuts, no.

 

[hiloran]

Changed all nuts and bolts what came with the Contitech CT 1051 WP1 and 6 PK 1050 D2 sets expect crankshaft pulley bolt. As I have understood it is not needed to be changed on BKD engine only in older PD engines. I can´t even find that tensioner stub bolt from internet shops. I thinks it is not that critical on this engine. In case you over tight it badly then it probably good to change it

Toothed belt kit
http://www.teiledirekt.de/product_info.php/products_id/1025727/cPath/

Ribbed belt kit:
http://www.teiledirekt.de/product_info.php/products_id/1024797/cPath/100016_100082_100432

Original kit also misses the stub bolt.
http://shop.ahw-shop.de/vw-jetta/mo...e-2.0-tdi-golf-5-jetta-touran-original?c=2327

 

[slamhouse]

No such thing as TTY nuts.

Lock nuts, yes. TTY nuts, no.

I was referring to the nut that holds the tensioner on, a complete kit usually comes with a replacement

Lack of sleep gets to us all