TDI 3.0 - timing chain tensioner covered under extended warranty?

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
Totally understand. I'd probably be concerned as well. I'm concerned about workmanship as well even though its being done by Audi .I don't have any reason or past experience to be concerned, i just am as its such a massive job. I bought mine from a Toyota dealership. But they've been really honest from day 1. any issues i have they just send it straight to the Audi dealership which is only 5min away.
A few hundred miles away though is a big inconvenience (though i drive 300miles a day just for work lol). I guess see what other responses you get on here from others experiences..
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Local dealership botched a coolant leak problem and I took it to Bob Baker in Carlsbad. They diagnosed the engine rattle to missing my engine covers--that the other dealership took off and left in their shop. I tried to explain to VWoA Customer Care that engine covers won't change the pitch of the sound, like the two audio clips I sent in demonstrated, even if they muted the intensity. He kept repeating he was not a technician and supports the dealership's conclusion. There won't be any higher review of the issue unless the dealership requests it, which seems bizarre because that would make it so they're never wrong as long as they don't know they're wrong...
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
Sounds like they're doing everything they can to avoid it. Like you said, its got nothing to do with the engine covers. Doesnt matter if the covers 'muffle' the noise, the noise is still there.
Although timing chains can/do rattle when worn, generally they're meant to be quiet. an i would suggest they shouldn't be rattling with any less than 150,000-200,000kms on it at least. i personally changes the 4 chains in my other vehicle, they didn't wear/rattle until 260,000kms.
the approach i took when i spoke to my dealership was theres a fault, the chain has stretched/tensioner failed prematurely. and i dont want it to skip a tooth and destroy itself. i think once i said that they thought it better to pay $7000 and repair it under warranty than be up for a new engine/major repairs..
i get my Q7 back tomorrow they've had it for 2 weeks so im just hoping everything has been done right.
Not really sure why some dealers (albeit in a different country) say these symptoms are 'normal' operation and some like mine did it straight away (once they heard it).
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I made recordings of the sounds and sent them to the dealership and the regional manager. The symptoms are now date stamped and documented so if they want to ignore it the repair will be on their dime.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Any mechanism that holds oil in the filter housing would be down inside the filter housing, which is an adapter that also has the coolant thermostat inside.
There is a part number update, a K suffix to a P sufflix, but I have no idea why.
FWIW, lots of engines have start-up chain rattles. Some (most) live long happy lives like that, and it does not seem to adversely effect them at all.
I'm having a difficult time getting either of the two dealerships I've worked with confirm whether there is/was an updated part and whether mine is the older version.

Can you please tell me how I can visually check the part number myself or is it difficult to ascertain from the top of the engine bay? Also, do you have both part numbers so I can compare what I have and what I need to buy to replace it myself?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I gave you all the info I have, sorry. Short of taking yours out and seeing what part number is on it, and if it is the older suffix, comparing it side by side with the new one, I really do not know.

Old oil filter assembly (which includes the thermostat): 059-115-389-K which goes to R.

Old oil cooler assembly: 059-117-021-R which goes to P.

So both of those items have been updated, but I do not know why nor what the differences are nor if your engine already had the newer type or not (likely not, as ETKA shows the change happened in 2014).
 
Last edited:

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Thank you. Those part numbers are what I meant to ask. I was hoping I could check the part number on the one in my vehicle from the top of the engine bay.

"Short of taking yours out and seeing what part number is on it"
Do I need to remove the oil filter housing to check the part number?

They did replace the oil cooler (part #059-117-015-P), which seems to be a replacement for 059-117-021-R based on this https://www.vwpartsvortex.com/oem-parts/volkswagen-oil-cooler-059117015p?c=cT0wNTktMTE3LTAyMS1S

I'm asking the current dealership to tell me which oil filter assembly I have but its looking like I'm going to have to deal with this myself.

That same site is indicating 059-115-389-P is the current oil filter housing. https://www.vwpartsvortex.com/oem-p...ter-housing-059115389p?c=cT0wNTktMTE1LTM4OS1L
 
Last edited:

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
The dealership's techs are telling me that they are no CEL for them to follow-up on and that there is nothing the scan tool is advising as out of spec. They claim there exists extensive monitoring inside the engine management that would alert a technician to any out of spec chain issues, including harmonics.

The noisy "chatter" is simply a diesel being a diesel...they're loud like that, according to these techs' opinions.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
i get my Q7 back tomorrow they've had it for 2 weeks so im just hoping everything has been done right.
Hi Jase, could you please give us an update as to whether the work they did resolved the noise concern? I'm picking mine up tomorrow given the second dealership is refusing to diagnose any further. Please let us know if the repair is worth chasing.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Guys, I really do not think you are going to find anyone to say something is "wrong", and I bet if you cold started 50 V6 TDIs back to back, 40+ of them would sound exactly the same, as do half the chain driven OHC engines out there.

I cold start loads of cars, from all kinds of brands, and it is quite common for a wee bit of valve train rattle at start up. Many of them have TSBs for this, informing of the fact that this is a normal, common condition and nothing is wrong.

And even if you could get someone to pull the engine out and replace the [very complex] chain drive system, chances are it will still make the noise in short order if not right away.
 

andreigbs

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
TDI
N/A
This thread is one reason why I opted to skip the V6 TDIs altogether. VAG can’t do chain drive properly, among other issues and me being a automotive hypochondriac by nature.

I think I’ll stick to the 4-cyl Bluetec diesels. Yeah, it’s a chain drive but Benz has been doing them for decades pretty well and they’re much easier to replace. Now to find a decently priced one...
 

andreigbs

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
TDI
N/A
True, but I haven’t heard of systemic failures on those (the AdBlue system is another story entirely) and the one we’ve had for 3 years and 60k miles has been a great specimen so far.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I haven't read one documented failure of these engines, either, though. And the only person who said he's had it repaired under warranty didn't come back to tell us the result...
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
Got the car back Christmas eve after the repair. so far, multiple starts every day and not 1 hint of chain noise. Glad it was under warranty as the bill totaled $12000AUD.
Still baffles me why overseas dealers are telling everyone theres no issue (i'm guessing so they dont have to replace them under warranty). The dealers here said its definitely not right and so they replaced them with no questions asked (once they heard it themselves).
I'm not sure how these (audi) specific tensioners work, but all other cars ive owned (not diesel) the tensioners were spring applied and the oil pressure was to assist. therefore there should be no rattle at start up while waiting for oil pressure. i would assume any manufacturer would be stupid to have tensioners purely designed to work off oil pressure which is what some people seem to be suggesting.
Anyway, time will tell. if they only last 50,000-100,000kms its a pretty poor design. the whole idea of a chain is less maintenance. Timing belts are usually done at this mileage. Chains should last twice that. my other car lasted til 260,000kms.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
VAG + chains = fail. It is just that simple. Been that way since about 3 months after the very first VR6 rolled out of the factory back in the late '80s. Nothing has changed.

I have a 2014 1.8L CPRA Jetta here that *almost* made it to 100k miles before its chain blew apart. 98k and change. They are junk. That is why there is a class action lawsuit going on them. But it will not likely end with any "improvements" to the design, just some warranty extensions. Given the V6 TDI is such a small number here sales wise, it may not ever enjoy any extra coverage.
 

viper550

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Location
Earth
TDI
14 JSW 6M, 15 Q5 TDI S-Line
Dealer says Q5 needs timing chains

Well my Q5 is at 99k miles at the dealer right now for almost 2 weeks waiting for audi to decide if they will cover the chains. The first thought from the dealer is that the service code for the chains does not fall under what is covered by the extended emissions warranty. However when I looked at the TSB that is the 2nd link below it has a service code of 1390 for the "balance shaft chain". When I looked up the factory service manual (erwin) the diagrams show that the only chain that touches the balance shaft is the main chain that also drives the cams.
Also I always like to remind them of page 9 in the extended emissions warranty booklet where it says "Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer".

My advice to anyone who has the timing chain rattle issue is:

1. Get as many videos of the sound that you can so that the dealer can't say the sound doesn't exist. A cell phone video camera works great.

2. Have the dealer diagnose what the issue is.

3. Then if audi tries to deny the repair. Go to the 1st link below and get a copy of your warranty booklet and remind them that you are the consumer.

This worked for me when I had a leaky valve cover gasket. Although I had to fight through audi customer care. If that fails get the class counsel attorneys involved, because this is not just any warranty that they can deny it is part of a lawsuit settlement.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/3-0-models/
Then look under "Approved emissions modification" and choose your engine version.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10144659-9999.pdf
 
Last edited:

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
The issue I encountered was the VW technicians classified this as normal noise so there was no warranty issue to resolve.
 

MWL

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Location
Pasadena, CA
TDI
2014 Touareg
Still no noise after replacing all the tensioners?

Got the car back Christmas eve after the repair. so far, multiple starts every day and not 1 hint of chain noise. Glad it was under warranty as the bill totaled $12000AUD.
Still baffles me why overseas dealers are telling everyone theres no issue (i'm guessing so they dont have to replace them under warranty). The dealers here said its definitely not right and so they replaced them with no questions asked (once they heard it themselves).
I'm not sure how these (audi) specific tensioners work, but all other cars ive owned (not diesel) the tensioners were spring applied and the oil pressure was to assist. therefore there should be no rattle at start up while waiting for oil pressure. i would assume any manufacturer would be stupid to have tensioners purely designed to work off oil pressure which is what some people seem to be suggesting.
Anyway, time will tell. if they only last 50,000-100,000kms its a pretty poor design. the whole idea of a chain is less maintenance. Timing belts are usually done at this mileage. Chains should last twice that. my other car lasted til 260,000kms.

Hi Jase,
Just curious if there is still no rattle at cold startup. My seems to subside after a fresh oil change, but then comes back a few months later and gets louder as the oil gets older.
 

viper550

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Location
Earth
TDI
14 JSW 6M, 15 Q5 TDI S-Line
Update

Well my Q5 is at 99k miles at the dealer right now for almost 2 weeks waiting for audi to decide if they will cover the chains. The first thought from the dealer is that the service code for the chains does not fall under what is covered by the extended emissions warranty. However when I looked at the TSB that is the 2nd link below it has a service code of 1390 for the "balance shaft chain". When I looked up the factory service manual (erwin) the diagrams show that the only chain that touches the balance shaft is the main chain that also drives the cams.
Also I always like to remind them of page 9 in the extended emissions warranty booklet where it says "Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer".

My advice to anyone who has the timing chain rattle issue is:

1. Get as many videos of the sound that you can so that the dealer can't say the sound doesn't exist. A cell phone video camera works great.

2. Have the dealer diagnose what the issue is.

3. Then if audi tries to deny the repair. Go to the 1st link below and get a copy of your warranty booklet and remind them that you are the consumer.

This worked for me when I had a leaky valve cover gasket. Although I had to fight through audi customer care. If that fails get the class counsel attorneys involved, because this is not just any warranty that they can deny it is part of a lawsuit settlement.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/3-0-models/
Then look under "Approved emissions modification" and choose your engine version.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10144659-9999.pdf



After over six weeks of my car sitting at the dealer my car has magically fixed itself. VOA said it is normal operation, and no repairs needed.
Wow if I would have known that Audi's can fix themselves I would have bought one years ago.:D
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Unfortunately, the only person in this thread who got any action was Jase and he never came back to give us an update so we don't even know if it's resolved.
 

nist7

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Location
Kansas City
TDI
none currently
After over six weeks of my car sitting at the dealer my car has magically fixed itself. VOA said it is normal operation, and no repairs needed.
Wow if I would have known that Audi's can fix themselves I would have bought one years ago.:D

:D


Wow, so the chain rattle just went away? I am a bit worried since it could always rear its ugly head later....probably right after the warranties expire too...

Were you able to get a firm answer from the dealer regarding if Audi will cover timing chain components under the Extended Emissions Warranty?


I'm reading the booklet and it specifically says "camshaft and valve train" and looking at definition of "valve train" under web search it seems it includes camshaft and the sub-assemblies that supports the camshaft (ie timing chain and components).

I'm looking at possibly buying a higher mileage 2016 Audi A7 with the 3.0 TDI and I'm hoping the Extended Warranty covers the chain if it goes...


Unfortunately, the only person in this thread who got any action was Jase and he never came back to give us an update so we don't even know if it's resolved.
Right right....this is my worry as well. I'm not a current TDI owner but am looking at a potential A7 TDI and the DPF is clearly covered but I was also looking to see if the timing chain assembly is covered under the extended warranty.

Someone else pointed out also a sentence in the extended warranty booklet that any conflicts should resolve in "favor of the customer."
 

viper550

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Location
Earth
TDI
14 JSW 6M, 15 Q5 TDI S-Line
:D


Wow, so the chain rattle just went away? I am a bit worried since it could always rear its ugly head later....probably right after the warranties expire too...

Were you able to get a firm answer from the dealer regarding if Audi will cover timing chain components under the Extended Emissions Warranty?


I'm reading the booklet and it specifically says "camshaft and valve train" and looking at definition of "valve train" under web search it seems it includes camshaft and the sub-assemblies that supports the camshaft (ie timing chain and components).

I'm looking at possibly buying a higher mileage 2016 Audi A7 with the 3.0 TDI and I'm hoping the Extended Warranty covers the chain if it goes...




Right right....this is my worry as well. I'm not a current TDI owner but am looking at a potential A7 TDI and the DPF is clearly covered but I was also looking to see if the timing chain assembly is covered under the extended warranty.

Someone else pointed out also a sentence in the extended warranty booklet that any conflicts should resolve in "favor of the customer."

No the sound did not go away.
It was just after many weeks of audi not making a decision, and me continually giving proof from their own sources that it should be covered. Such as the part number diagram for the long block on parts.audiusa.com showing the timing system as being part of the assembled block which is explicitly covered in the warranty booklet, and the warranty booklet doesn't exclude the timing system.
Then another week and a half went by and they decided that the sound is part of normal operation. So in other words how I see it is that they knew that I had them with the written warranty. So they had to figure a way out of it and they did that by saying that the rattle is part of normal operation.
It went from the technician diagnosing it needing chains and guides and tensioners at a cost of approx $10k and audi denying it , and me fighting them giving proof that they should cover it, to weeks later the tech all this sudden changing to its normal operation.
I've been to sewage treatment plants that don't smell this much like crap.

Class Counsel is pursuing it and I'm still waiting to hear back.
So I will see what happens.
I think audi would rather roll the dice that the engine doesn't jump timing and destroy itself until after the warranty expires, because there's no way they can deny replacing the engine if that happens during the warranty.
 

nist7

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Location
Kansas City
TDI
none currently
No the sound did not go away.
It was just after many weeks of audi not making a decision, and me continually giving proof from their own sources that it should be covered. Such as the part number diagram for the long block on parts.audiusa.com showing the timing system as being part of the assembled block which is explicitly covered in the warranty booklet, and the warranty booklet doesn't exclude the timing system.
Then another week and a half went by and they decided that the sound is part of normal operation. So in other words how I see it is that they knew that I had them with the written warranty. So they had to figure a way out of it and they did that by saying that the rattle is part of normal operation.
It went from the technician diagnosing it needing chains and guides and tensioners at a cost of approx $10k and audi denying it , and me fighting them giving proof that they should cover it, to weeks later the tech all this sudden changing to its normal operation.
I've been to sewage treatment plants that don't smell this much like crap.

Class Counsel is pursuing it and I'm still waiting to hear back.
So I will see what happens.
I think audi would rather roll the dice that the engine doesn't jump timing and destroy itself until after the warranty expires, because there's no way they can deny replacing the engine if that happens during the warranty.

Yikes, I see. Thanks for the clarification.



Man that sucks, but given my experience on other car forums this is definitely par for the course for dealers and OEMs and it is certainly not exclusive to bargain brands like Honda/Toyota and not even luxury brands are immune...where presumably you think that people who are spending, usually, over $50,000 on a product would get treated better.



Good to know this though. Basically I would need to go in being prepared for the worst case scenario. At least the explicitly stated items are covered under the extended warranty so that's good.


But yes, basically I think Audi is betting that more of these cars will survive past 120k than not to make them not have to shell out lot of money to get the timing chain service done. It's really all about the money in the end.
 

AndreiMTM

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 A6 TDI
My 3.0TDI also has a chain rattle, currently at 79k miles and it’s had it since I bought it with 38k miles.

Usually, I would worry about something like this especially since I owned a TSI before, but it is important to note that so far there have been no documented failures of the chains on here or other forums. There are several high mileage cars with the chain rattle and none have failed yet.

My good friend is also a tech at a VW dealer (works on a lot of 3.0 touaregs) and he’s never heard of a chain failing on the Diesel engine.

It would definitely be nice to have it replaced under warranty though, for a piece of mind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Turbospool

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Location
Daleville Va
TDI
2001 White TDI Jetta, 280k, 2003 jetta 270k
My 2013 TDI Touareg rattles most every startup with 189K on the clock..... dealer will not do anything though it was under diesel gate warranty, I will drive it till it grenades, if it ever comes to that. I’ll let you know ?
 
Top