TDI 3.0 - timing chain tensioner covered under extended warranty?

Low944

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Location
VA
TDI
2014 Q7 TDI
Check if the oil filter housing has an updated part number, and compare it to your vehicle. VAG has a habit of not putting a drain back valve / flapper in it, then superseding the part number with a new part and a flap in there.
I guess this could cause an oil drain situation?
 

Low944

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Location
VA
TDI
2014 Q7 TDI
Well since my post that I thought the noise was gone, it has done it a few more times. It is doing it less but still there. I will look into the oil filter housing part next.
 
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craigldavis

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2003
TDI
2009 JSW M/T; 2014 Q7
Mine does it also (I’m at like 180k miles but I’ve only owned it for about 20,000 miles).

I thought I was crazy when after my first oil change I thought the startup sound went away. Invented all kinds of theories like maybe the prior owner had the wrong oil in it (or some equivalent that wasn’t as good). But it came back after a while. 500 or so miles?

Second oil change I did was 2 weeks ago and guess what... quiet startups again. Only a few hundred miles so far but I bet it get noisy at startup again after a couple hundred more miles.
 

Low944

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Location
VA
TDI
2014 Q7 TDI
Thanks for the info. I didn't notice mine doing it until after a few hundred miles after my first oil change too. That happened to be when it was getting warmer out. But as it got colder it went away again. Then I added the additive and it went away for a few hundred miles. hmmm. I guess at this point I will just keep thinking on it and stop worrying about it. I purchased a tune from Malone and I have been holding off since I wanted to bring the Q into the dealer for the noise. But if I can't get it to do it consistently, they won't hear it. It sounds like they are going to call it normal from what people are saying. I am still in the extended warranty period until 120k or July 2024. I am at 98k now.
 

TDIPOWERMAN

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Location
Virginia
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI
Mine is most likely to do it on the first start of the day (or after 2 days of no driving).

If the chain tensioner is based on oil pressure, and if the tensioner mechanism has internal wear that “leaks down” the oil pressure it had built up, then I’m assuming anytime the oil warms up enough to be thinner and less viscous, then given a chance to drain out of the tensioner you’ll hear the timing chain slap the cover a couple of times until the tensioner gets new oil pressure. In my case it’s literally only about 1 second or so.

I bet if you drive it until it’s nice and warm and drop off at a dealer on a Friday night then be ther first thing Monday morning to start it the first time with the mechanic and service advisor there, you’ll all hear it.
Tried that and VW service writer as well as mechanic said they could never hear it after 3 days of trying! I heard it soon as i got it back home. Go figure ! anyway, some VW dealers will not cover it under dieselgate warranty, others will. But none admit's it's actually a problem. Like mentioned above.. the engine may need to grenade before they acknowledge any problem! I have a 2013 TDI Touareg with 170 k on the clock.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Do we have any evidence that this actually is a problem and that grenading engines is even something to keep ourselves up at night over?

I once chased a rattle in a Toyota V6. I spent thousands of dollars in engine rebuilding costs and the grand payoff at the end was not a silent engine but rather one that sounded the same or worse than when I started!

I sold that '89 4runner off in early 2000s when gas skyrocketed and have been driving cars with timing belts since. Now that I'm back in this rig and hearing that occasional rattle I'm not convinced I (or anyone else) need to perform open heart surgery on it.

There's a well-known gear rattle in the earlier getrag manuals. The "fix" is to leave it alone.

Gears rattle, metal on metal rattles, and I don't think I'm saying anything anyone doesn't know but it's sometimes difficult to not overanalyze a situation like this. We can minimize the wear/tear and possible damage over time with a variety of substances/lubricants but eradicating all chain rattle noises might be an impossible and unnecessary standard.

I'm not saying concerns aren't warranted, but I am curious about the magnitude of the threat.
 

Turbospool

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Location
Daleville Va
TDI
2001 White TDI Jetta, 280k, 2003 jetta 270k
Mine ( 2013 TDI Executive ) Just started to “rattle” , something it never did before , and it is SOMETHING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT. I’m not saying it is definitely the timing chain or tensioner ... but let’s say this is also possibly a problem in TDI’s as it has been with other VW VAG engines . Is replacing your complete TDI engine something you wanna risk.... even just replacing the chain..... 5-6 grand? VW simply needs noise related issues proven before they will acknowledge they have responsibility . You better have everything stock, use the proper 507 oil, and even their OEM oil filter , or they will /can disqualify any warranty, Dieselgate or otherwise. I have never heard of any 3 liter V6 diesels slip their chain yet......., but neither do I wish to be the gini pig . It will take an ongoing rattle to convince them you got any issue. They will need to be able to diagnose the issue beyond any shadow of doubt before they are going to tackle this project... it’s a good week or two of work for them. I’m not loosing any sleep on this , but neither will I be happy if my Touareg chunks itself.
 

mannytranny

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 14, 2003
Location
CA
TDI
02 Jetta (sold, such a great car) '16 Touareg
My '16 with 40k on the clock will tick for a few revolutions on startup. Not loud, but you can hear it.
 

Turbospool

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Location
Daleville Va
TDI
2001 White TDI Jetta, 280k, 2003 jetta 270k
I wonder if anyone has ever done their timing chain, or tensioner.... and fixed this problem?
 

deezelpower

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Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Location
Martha Lake, WA
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI, 2015 Audi Q7 TDI
Subscribed.


Our 2015 Q7 began the dreaded startup rattle around 15K miles, and has progressively worsened where it rattles now almost every morning, and even warm startups, after sitting for as little as 20 minutes. We brought it to the dealer's attention at the 25K service but they could not reproduce.


I've inquired twice now (at the dealer) whether or not a timing chain or tensioner issue is covered by the 10y/120k dieselgate fix, and they insist it is. I plan to get it in writing, just in case. We had the emissions recall done at 21K.



Oil's been sampled before each change (we have the paid maintenance plan), and iron is averaging 140 ppm each 10k miles (we've tried two 5K changes and iron averaged 80 ppm). Blackstone says this is 3 times as high as universal average. Aluminum is a little high as well (but not so bad).


The vehicle is our family's transporter so it sees several short trips (<5 miles) a week, though it does warm up fully each time, according to the temp gauge. Occasionally we take trips over the mountains (~200 miles roundrip).


At the 35K service we brought it up again, and they actually confirmed after hearing it start it when it sat for an hour at the service drop-off. They kept it overnight, and were not able to reproduce the next morning so they sent us on our way. Sigh.


We have no intentions at this point to sell or move on because there just isn't any vehicle out there that has the same capabilities as our beloved Audi. Maybe if Chevy puts their vaunted I-6 new diesel into a Tahoe I just *might* be tempted :)
 

AndreiMTM

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 A6 TDI
Hello everyone!

I have the same issue as OP described. 2014 Audi A6 TDI (U.S. Spec 3.0TDI) and it has the chain rattle mostly when hot; I very rarely hear it on a cold start. I too am wondering if this is covered under the extended warranty, or if the chain stretches too far if they'll cover the engine damage.

I will mention--and I know, different year/motor/setup-- but my uncle's 2006 2.7 TDI A6 in Europe has had a chain rattle on startup (cold only) for about 4 years now and the car still runs and drives without issues. This made me wonder if it is actually a risk, or hit or miss. (Car in Europe has over 210k miles)

Anyways, it seems like quite a few people are experiencing this, so I'm wondering if it does actually have the potential to ruin the engine or not.

My car is at 64k miles, all maintenance completed at 10k intervals until 40k (at dealership), and 6-7k mile oil change intervals afterward.
 

Turbospool

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Location
Daleville Va
TDI
2001 White TDI Jetta, 280k, 2003 jetta 270k
Subscribed.
Our 2015 Q7 began the dreaded startup rattle around 15K miles, and has progressively worsened where it rattles now almost every morning, and even warm startups, after sitting for as little as 20 minutes. We brought it to the dealer's attention at the 25K service but they could not reproduce.
I've inquired twice now (at the dealer) whether or not a timing chain or tensioner issue is covered by the 10y/120k dieselgate fix, and they insist it is. I plan to get it in writing, just in case. We had the emissions recall done at 21K.
Just wondering if you have had any further prognosis ?????
Oil's been sampled before each change (we have the paid maintenance plan), and iron is averaging 140 ppm each 10k miles (we've tried two 5K changes and iron averaged 80 ppm). Blackstone says this is 3 times as high as universal average. Aluminum is a little high as well (but not so bad).
The vehicle is our family's transporter so it sees several short trips (<5 miles) a week, though it does warm up fully each time, according to the temp gauge. Occasionally we take trips over the mountains (~200 miles roundrip).
At the 35K service we brought it up again, and they actually confirmed after hearing it start it when it sat for an hour at the service drop-off. They kept it overnight, and were not able to reproduce the next morning so they sent us on our way. Sigh.
We have no intentions at this point to sell or move on because there just isn't any vehicle out there that has the same capabilities as our beloved Audi. Maybe if Chevy puts their vaunted I-6 new diesel into a Tahoe I just *might* be tempted :)
Just wondering if you have any further experience to share with us?? Mine is rattling every day... annoying. :(
 

TDIPOWERMAN

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Location
Virginia
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI
Ok, so I've called my local dealer and the parts man tells me there is NO anti bleed back flapper since this is a cartridge type filter. Also the housing does NOT have any anti-drain back flapper as part of the assembly. Is that true? Where does one go from there?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Any mechanism that holds oil in the filter housing would be down inside the filter housing, which is an adapter that also has the coolant thermostat inside.

There is a part number update, a K suffix to a P sufflix, but I have no idea why.

FWIW, lots of engines have start-up chain rattles. Some (most) live long happy lives like that, and it does not seem to adversely effect them at all.
 

TDIPOWERMAN

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Location
Virginia
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI
Any mechanism that holds oil in the filter housing would be down inside the filter housing, which is an adapter that also has the coolant thermostat inside.
There is a part number update, a K suffix to a P sufflix, but I have no idea why.
FWIW, lots of engines have start-up chain rattles. Some (most) live long happy lives like that, and it does not seem to adversely effect them at all.
Yeah... thanks for that advise. I may just need to ignore that start up rattle and drive it!
 

deezelpower

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Location
Martha Lake, WA
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI, 2015 Audi Q7 TDI
Just wondering if you have any further experience to share with us?? Mine is rattling every day... annoying. :(

Still same. I changed the oil and filter myself at 40k and we're just about 45k now, and the last free maintenance coverage, so I'll bring it up yet again. I hate to think it's normal since we had it well over a year with no sounds at all. :( And it's had high iron in the oil since day 1 so it's likely unrelated to that.
 

bioburner

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Location
Out there
TDI
02 Wagon 285k - Gone ‘10 JSW - Gone '13 Q7 145k
Mine with 140k has been rattling on warm/hot starts for the last 20k mi, rattling goes away after 2 secs.

Seems all of the rattles are on the ‘13 and later engines with 2 chains. Anybody have a ‘12 or engine with 4 chains that rattles?
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
Has anyone got any videos of their noise? My Q7 has been rattling on start, sometimes when cold, sometimes when hot. In the middle of trying to get it sorted under warranty. But I have a feeling their going to try and brush it off as not being a problem or make up that its something else just so they're not paying $5k to fix it. As far as im concerned theres nothing else that will make that noise.
Mine is a Dec 2012 built MY13 model. Unsure if it has 2 or 4 chains.
What are people thoughts? Here's what mine sounds like

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r1nxwctft3c4kzm/AABh6oZW3yn-qFqNSOEeCu18a?dl=0
 

bioburner

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Jun 5, 2003
Location
Out there
TDI
02 Wagon 285k - Gone ‘10 JSW - Gone '13 Q7 145k
That’s the same noise I experience. MY ‘13-15 Q7 is engine code CNRB, 2 chains. I have a higher mileage vehicle, rougher example that I’m not prepared to spend the >$5 on something that *might* lead to catastrophic failure. I brought it to dealers attention during warranty visits during pre-settlememt “bridge” warranty period and after. I gave up after maybe three visits when it started doing it periodically.

I’m not aware of it causing any fault codes for anyone so with just a sound...I wish you the best of luck getting them to cover it under the “long block” item of the emissions warranty. If my grenades, I’ll certainly take it to the dealer with a copy of the warranty and a good mood ready to litigate it with them.
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
I'm in Australia, we don't get the extra emisions related warranty unfortunately, it's just covered under a statutory warranty on all dealer used vehicles. I know from experience on other cars I've personally replaced chains on that there's not much else it can be, chain, tensioner. Unless the dealer I bought it from (Not audi) have run the wrong grade oil or something in it causing a longer time to build up oil pressure. Really don't know, the dealer has the car at audi so will wait and see.
I've read so much mixed information about it, from these engines are bullet proof, to the timing chains and tensioners being replace and the noise still being there so not really sure what to make of it. I'd argue it's not normal operation, as I'm sure they don't do it from factory...
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I would not expect them to make this noise fresh off the factory assembly floor since there is no wear at that point. They will wear over time and I would not think it unnatural for some noise to occur due to that (normal) wear.

Unless I'm missing it, there hasn't been a single incident of pre-emptive replacement of this generation nor has there been any adverse affects from VW's refusal to replace them.
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
I understand that. I Probably worded it poorly, obviously there's no wear when their new. And mine is definetly not be. But to suggest that a chain has worn to the point of rattling, sooner than a timing belt would require changing is normal operation ....
The most recent timing chains I've done myself, on my other vehicle lasted from new to 250,000km before I heard a rattle. So why would it be accepted that its normal for these to do it at 80,000km?
Like I said previously I read so much contradicting information, I've also read people getting confused with 3.0 v6 gas engine vs tdi when complaint about the rattle.
If it makes the noise and that's it, and it'll go 'forever' then fine. But doesn't seem right to rattle loud enough to hear from inside the house.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I have read the tensioner loses its oil over time and that can account for the noise. Mine is under warranty, as well. I'll take mine in on Monday and see if I can get any traction. I have a feeling they'll conclude it's within operating specs and the best we can do is document it in case something happens after the warranty expires.
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
The Audi dealer here has determined the problem is the timing chain/tensioners. Its booked in to all be replace under warranty. $7-10k AUD job. Glad im not paying lol.
Fingers crossed it all goes well and i dont get the car back with other problems after having the engine/gearbox out
 

bizzle

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Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
How difficult was the diagnostic/convincing stage of this?

Was it as simple as bringing it to service, starting it up with the noise, and then saying, "is it the chain?" or was there much more to it?

I'm taking mine in tomorrow and am fully anticipating the run-around either before or after the diagnostic. All I can right now is there's this noise at start-up and some people on the internet have had it addressed but I don't anticipate it will get me far :( I also "only" have a Touareg instead of an Audi.
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
Initially, they had the car for 2.5 days and couldn't fault it. So every time the car was started we would video it. After 2 weeks i took a usb drive in to them with 28 videos of the noise over that 2 week period.
They then still wanted to hear it in person, so they had the car for another week. it was about 4 days into that time that they heard it.
Im not sure what other tests they did if any, maybe just had their computer hooked up to get any readings during the startup maybe. They sent all the videos (plus one they recorded) off to some 'head technical office' (their words, not mine) and come back and said they'd replace the chains and tensioners etc under warranty.

Like i said previously though, we dont get the emissions scandal warranty here in australia. This is being done under a 3month statutory warranty every dealer used car has. So im not sure how you guys would go over there. I dont know much about whats covered under your extra warranty.

So all in all, they had the car for around a week and a half, plus all the videos i supplied, and about 20 phone calls back and forward, so I had to put a bit of pressure on them.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I'm not sure about the extended emissions warranty, but mine is still covered under the 10yr/100K manufacturer's powertrain warranty.

I'll have to listen to all of your videos, I guess. Mine just has a few seconds of rattling right at start-up and it happens every time. That's similar to a few peoples' descriptions in this thread, but I don't know how different that is from what you had. It sounds like yours might have been more serious or more intermittent if they couldn't catch it for a week...unless it just took them a week of back and forth on the phone and it was making the sound every time.

Thanks for the info. I'll see how it goes tomorrow.
 

Jase82

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Location
Australia
TDI
Audi Q7
You should be covered then if still under manufacturers warranty.
Mine would go from a faint split sec rattle, to a rather loud rattle for around 1-1.5sec. and everywhere inbetween.
I think they probably heard if quite a few times, but probably the quieter ones maybe. If you have a listen to the videos, they are all exactly the same sound, just some are louder/worse than others. It definitely happened often enough for them to catch it sooner as i managed to get 28 videos in 2 weeks. anyway, will see how it goes after the repair.
Good luck with it
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I wrote earlier in the thread that I didn't reasonably expect a timing chain to be whisper quiet but if VW is considering it abnormal then I'm not going to argue. The greater concern I have, though, is the ramifications of dismantling everything and hoping the cure isn't worse than the disease. My local dealership doesn't inspire any confidence at all since they're a Ford dealership that is still building the VW lot down the road. Some of the techs are wearing VW uniforms but I have no idea the extent of their training...saying nothing at all about their experience.

Anyone want to chime in whether I should I be taking this to Los Angeles, Murrieta, or Palm Desert a few hundred miles away or this a follow the book kind of R&R?
 
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