TDI 1st Gen Tacoma Swap

[jimbote]

Yeah, I think this all makes sense. I'm on 33in tires, with 3.56 gears, and 0.81 final drive. At 70mph in 5th I'm basically sitting at 2000 rpm. If I drop down into 4th the temps drop too. Maybe loading up the engine that much at 2000rpm is just rocketing the EGT up.

I have 2 sets of 31in tires, but they are 15s and I can only run 16s with the Tundra brakes. TLR, no.

I don't typically do much more than 70-75mph. I was hoping to be able to chug along the interstate at 80 through the plains and parts of the West, but if that's just not in the cards for the truck/engine combo, I don't really have a problem with gearing to only do 70mph.

Wait? You're still on stock 3.59 gears? I had those too when i first put the truck together. What a miserable gear set with 31s. 4.10 or 4.30 ftw. BTW: my first 4.10 rear drop was from a 1st gen Sequoia. All those are 4.10, and easy to find. Only difference is the pinion flange is harmonic and uses studs. Our driveshaft fits right on. My front came from a 3rd gen runner. Also cheap and easy to find. Swapped out the DD axle and tube for my stock units. The DD models use needle bearings for axle support, the lock hub models use bronze. But the manual axles fit fine.

 

[BimmerTim]

Wait? You're still on stock 3.59 gears? I had those too when i first put the truck together. What a miserable gear set with 31s. 4.10 or 4.30 ftw. BTW: my first 4.10 rear drop was from a 1st gen Sequoia. All those are 4.10, and easy to find. Only difference is the pinion flange is harmonic and uses studs. Our driveshaft fits right on. My front came from a 3rd gen runner. Also cheap and easy to find. Swapped out the DD axle and tube for my stock units. The DD models use needle bearings for axle support, the lock hub models use bronze. But the manual axles fit fine.

Yes, still on 3.59 gears AND 33in tires. I've been looking at where to find a 4.30 front gear set. The rears are available through Yukon, seemingly.

Last night I ran a little test. I was running 4th gear @70mph, which was about 2600rpm. On flat EGTs were sitting at about 900-1000 degF. Up a midwest grade EGTs would climb to about 1250 degF and boost was around 10-12 psi to hold speed up the grade.

On a full throttle rip I can 100% get EGTs up to 1500 degF, if not more.

Some of my thoughts on this, and correct me if my thinking is off, are:
1. I'm still running a VNT15, so I have to imagine the back-pressure and flow restriction are generating way more heat than in a mk4. It's pushing this truck with bad gears, big tires, and not particularly aerodynamic.
2. I have pretty large injectors for a VNT15. Bosio PP764, which I believe are 0.232
3. On top of the injectors and small turbo I also have an 11mm pump.

I'm guessing that I may just be so over-fuelled that EGTs scream. I can lay down a pretty solid haze with my foot in it.

Would going to a larger turbo, VNT17 or 17/22 or similar chill out the EGTs. Back-pressure should be reduced with the larger exhaust housing. Compressor flow should be way more efficient at the same boost levels.

I had read somewhere, that with larger injectors, to help ensure that the fuel volume makes it into the combustion chamber early enough to burn "completely" during the combustion stroke, the injection start timing could be advanced. In VCDS it pretty clearly says they do not recommend adjust the injection timing numbers, but the option is certainly there. I haven't found enough info or reading material to feel confident changing those numbers, but I'm just curious if that's something that would help.

 

[jmodge]

You're pretty much on with your thinking. Your first upgrade should be the gearing, as you are loading up the engine and increasing heat by making it work.
The turbo alone would not alleviate the heat. TDI's like higher rpms than most common diesels.

So the first mod should be gearing followed by a tune, or a turbo then a tune. I have a VNT15(1749v) on mine and I can easily keep it under 1300 even towing. That's with a Malone tune that isn't the greatest, particularly harsh on the low rpm scale. What I mean by that is below 1600rpm I have be very easy on the throttle or downshift even with the slightest of load. This is with 4:10's and 235/85/16's running through a W59.

With your gearing I don't think you will get much significant improvement out of any hardware change or tuning. I'm pretty sure I would prefer 4:30's in my truck as I don't spend a lot of time on the highway, and when I do I'm not running fast. With 31's 4:10's feel good.

 

[BornIntoIt]

@BimmerTim in terms of turbo, if you can swing it then i would suggest to go with a newer platform.. either a gtb or gtd turbo. i had a vnt17 (gt1749vb) on my jetta wagon with .216's and malone stg 4 tune and found even that to get hot easily. I couldnt imagine how quickly a stock vnt15 would get choked out in a rig like yours.
i used to tow a ~2000lb trailer with my jetta and had to monitor/ adjust driving for egts quite frequently

I have never personally drove a 17/22 but have read that people arnt that happy with them overall. They were widely used back in the day but there is much better turbos now.

i plan on using a gtb2056 off a 3L Touareg for my ranger with 32s and 410s (FAR from complete) and have heard very good things about those turbos for lower egts and response similar to a vnt17

 

[jimbote]

Bimmer
I didn't notice any significant change in egts when going from 3.59 to.4.10, and that was still with the 1749VA. Again, i also didn't record much change going from the VA to the BV43 (maybe 100-150?) , but it was instantly faster, as the BV moves way more air at the same boost level. So a bigger turbo inyour case can't hurt. With your 33s, i would definitely step straight into 4.30s. I don't think it will effect egts much but it will drive so much better. As far as timing and fueling: yes, larger nozzles and pump allow requested fuel to inject in a smaller timing window. This gives it more time for a complete burn, thus lowering egts. Maybe your injection duration is too high? I'm not a tuning guru though.

 

[jmodge]

index.php

A picture of the gauge cluster on the door pillar. I think think there were also 3 gauge pods.

 

[BimmerTim]

You're pretty much on with your thinking. Your first upgrade should be the gearing, as you are loading up the engine and increasing heat by making it work.
The turbo alone would not alleviate the heat. TDI's like higher rpms than most common diesels.

So the first mod should be gearing followed by a tune, or a turbo then a tune. I have a VNT15(1749v) on mine and I can easily keep it under 1300 even towing. That's with a Malone tune that isn't the greatest, particularly harsh on the low rpm scale. What I mean by that is below 1600rpm I have be very easy on the throttle or downshift even with the slightest of load. This is with 4:10's and 235/85/16's running through a W59.

With your gearing I don't think you will get much significant improvement out of any hardware change or tuning. I'm pretty sure I would prefer 4:30's in my truck as I don't spend a lot of time on the highway, and when I do I'm not running fast. With 31's 4:10's feel good.

I definitely find myself wanting to be between two gears right now, which I think regearing would help a lot with. This is the first truck I've ever built, but I've built a ton of cars over the years, so finding what I like and don't like on a truck had been fun. I don't really like being on 33s, so I do plan to go back to 31s. Technically, I'm on 255/85R16s, which is about 33.1". A big part of wanting to change is C-load availability. My old Cooper ST Maxx C-load were so good and compliant. These new Toyos are E-load and I definitely feel the difference in ride quality. The driveability is also kind of annoying, but I could gear to compensate for that.

I found Amayama shows they can get a new factory 4.30 gear set for the front, so I placed that order. We'll see what they come back with for final price and availability. If they can get it I'll order the 4.30 Yukon rear also.

It does already have a tune from Kerma for the hardware, but I mostly just went with them initially to get the ECU socketing done. I'm hoping Burpod will have interest in future tuning with me.

@BimmerTim in terms of turbo, if you can swing it then i would suggest to go with a newer platform.. either a gtb or gtd turbo. i had a vnt17 (gt1749vb) on my jetta wagon with .216's and malone stg 4 tune and found even that to get hot easily. I couldnt imagine how quickly a stock vnt15 would get choked out in a rig like yours.
i used to tow a ~2000lb trailer with my jetta and had to monitor/ adjust driving for egts quite frequently

I have never personally drove a 17/22 but have read that people arnt that happy with them overall. They were widely used back in the day but there is much better turbos now.

i plan on using a gtb2056 off a 3L Touareg for my ranger with 32s and 410s (FAR from complete) and have heard very good things about those turbos for lower egts and response similar to a vnt17

Yeah, I would for sure go with a modern turbo. I don't have a good handle on the numbers and sizing of the newer ones, so I lean back on the OG turbos for size reference more than what I would actually buy.

Bimmer
I didn't notice any significant change in egts when going from 3.59 to.4.10, and that was still with the 1749VA. Again, i also didn't record much change going from the VA to the BV43 (maybe 100-150?) , but it was instantly faster, as the BV moves way more air at the same boost level. So a bigger turbo inyour case can't hurt. With your 33s, i would definitely step straight into 4.30s. I don't think it will effect egts much but it will drive so much better. As far as timing and fueling: yes, larger nozzles and pump allow requested fuel to inject in a smaller timing window. This gives it more time for a complete burn, thus lowering egts. Maybe your injection duration is too high? I'm not a tuning guru though.

Thanks for the gearing tire feedback. I've done some rudimentary testing knowing that 4lo 2nd and 4th would be similar-ish to a regeared 4hi 1st and 2nd, and that already makes a massive difference in low speed feel.

The other reason I'm not confident in the way the tune has the injection parameters set it that it seems to feel less happy when I get closer to 3,000 rpm on moderate load. Like the injection timing or duration coupled with the injectors isn't ideal as is. I've checked and rechecked the mechanical timing and it's just slightly above the middle line. I'm not sure. I'd like to get some others to drive it for some impressions.

 

[BimmerTim]

Ok, I just had to run down to the office, so I took a little video cruising on the highway at about 70mph. There is some flat, some uphill and some downhill. Sort of nearish the beginning I also run from 70mph up to about 90mph, mostly to short that it's not too hard to get the EGTs up to 1600 degF.

For the most part, on flat, they stay between 850-1050 degF, unless there is a grade up or down. You can also pretty clearly hear my clutch slipping on the 70-90. Boo. I guess I shouldn't have expected a ton out of a stock 22R clutch. Haha.

I'm also pretty happy with the intercooler setup. It's about 90 degF outside today and my IATs are only a few deg over ambient.

 

[BimmerTim]

This was all in 4th gear, BTW.

 

[PickleRick]

Your taco is out of my Toyota knowledge base but when I found my axles were 4.10 (the po had taken the 4.30 that were supposed to come in the rig based on the data plate) the cheapest source was another 4 runner.

Pulled in a rusty 2nd Gen 4 runner out of Florida for about 800.

Took the gears, parted the interior, sold the engine and then the rolling chassis nearly doubling my money. Kept the r150 as a spare.

I did initially have some flange issues in one of my rigs but redrilling holes made it a non issue.

 

[BimmerTim]

Your taco is out of my Toyota knowledge base but when I found my axles were 4.10 (the po had taken the 4.30 that were supposed to come in the rig based on the data plate) the cheapest source was another 4 runner.

Pulled in a rusty 2nd Gen 4 runner out of Florida for about 800.

Took the gears, parted the interior, sold the engine and then the rolling chassis nearly doubling my money. Kept the r150 as a spare.

I did initially have some flange issues in one of my rigs but redrilling holes made it a non issue.

That's not a bad idea. Maybe I'll look into that also. I wonder if the FJ Cruiser ever had 4.30 gears... I love daydreaming about a 6-speed and AWD.

I also reached out to East Coast Gear Supply about finding and installing 4.30 front gears. I'm confident I can do the rear, but the front seems to be a bit more of a pain in the ass to shim and lash. We'll see what they say.

 

[PickleRick]

I'd you get the yota diffs it's a simple pull the axles loose, remove/clean/seal and install. I personally wouldn't bother with new bearings on the inners if everything moves smoothly. A new pinion flange seal wouldn't be a bad idea.

If you're set on lockers the factory drop out 4 runner 4.30 e locker can be had for about 700-800.

 

[jimbote]

I'd you get the yota diffs it's a simple pull the axles loose, remove/clean/seal and install. I personally wouldn't bother with new bearings on the inners if everything moves smoothly. A new pinion flange seal wouldn't be a bad idea.

If you're set on lockers the factory drop out 4 runner 4.30 e locker can be had for about 700-800.

He has an 8.4. E locks only came in 8" versions.

 

[PradoTDI]

Regarding turbos, I’m far from an expert but several people have recommended going with a large, 5th generation VNT. I’m currently looking at either a GTD1752 or a GTD2060.

Engine hardware choices for ALH heavy vehicle swap

I've got about 35k miles on my ALH swapped Toyota Land Cruiser, and while it works well I find myself wanting to be able push it a bit harder on hills and into headwinds without getting too hot. The plan is to get a new tune from @burpod, but before that I want to make sure all my hardware is...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[BimmerTim]

Regarding turbos, I’m far from an expert but several people have recommended going with a large, 5th generation VNT. I’m currently looking at either a GTD1752 or a GTD2060.

Engine hardware choices for ALH heavy vehicle swap

I've got about 35k miles on my ALH swapped Toyota Land Cruiser, and while it works well I find myself wanting to be able push it a bit harder on hills and into headwinds without getting too hot. The plan is to get a new tune from @burpod, but before that I want to make sure all my hardware is...

forums.tdiclub.com

Oooh! I'll dig into this one. Seems 100% relevant to this exact conversation!! Thanks

 

[dieseldonato]

Id skip the 17xx series and go right for the gtd2060/62. Hated the 1749 I had on the car, and dont like the 1852 I currently have. Not enough air to keep egts down much over 4k rpm. Won't be making the same mistake next time.

 

[BimmerTim]

Id skip the 17xx series and go right for the gtd2060/62. Hated the 1749 I had on the car, and dont like the 1852 I currently have. Not enough air to keep egts down much over 4k rpm. Won't be making the same mistake next time.

Ha! I'm not sure I've ever even revd this thing to 4k. I'm way interested in the power between 1500 - 3000 for what I typically use the truck for.

 

[PradoTDI]

Ha! I'm not sure I've ever even revd this thing to 4k. I'm way interested in the power between 1500 - 3000 for what I typically use the truck for.

Exactly my position too. I have probably hit 4k a couple of times in deep snow or mud, 1st or 2nd low, but under normal driving conditions I generally shift at 3000-3200rpm. The ability to lug down a bit and then have enough grunt to accelerate away again is more important to me than high rpm.

Id skip the 17xx series and go right for the gtd2060/62. Hated the 1749 I had on the car, and dont like the 1852 I currently have. Not enough air to keep egts down much over 4k rpm. Won't be making the same mistake next time.

That’s great info, thanks. I was considering the GTD1752, but everyone is recommending the 2060 or similar. Seems like if I’m going to the effort of custom building my exhaust, turbo adapter, oil lines, charge pipes and intake again I might as well go with the big one!

 

[03Golfer]

Ha! I'm not sure I've ever even revd this thing to 4k. I'm way interested in the power between 1500 - 3000 for what I typically use the truck for.

Likely partly because the stock turbo just doesn't pull at that RPM. Personally I think of you're going to try to make power, doing it at higher RPM makes sense to keep shock load on the drivetrain down (low RPM high torque is particularly hard on... everything).

It'll still lug down low to an extent, it's a diesel after all.

 

[dieseldonato]

While I usualy fall into the seldom rev above 4k rpm, I dont see the point of choosing a turbo incapable of using the full rpm range of the engine. As discussed previously, they are happiest above 2k rpm, and will chug along at 3k rpm all day long with no real efficiency lost. Its just a design principal of these engines. They were made to work best at higher rpm and still be quite efficient engine. When tuning you need to take that into consideration as well, and select a turbo that will give decent low rpm response, but carry you throughout the entire rpm range. It will be a happier, more efficinet engine in the long run.

 

[PickleRick]

He has an 8.4. E locks only came in 8" versions.

Time for an axle swap!!!

 

[BimmerTim]

Time for an axle swap!!!

Ha! I'll just do a regear and ARB locker on the current axle. I already have onboard air, so nothing to add but the line to the back.

 

[BimmerTim]

Drove home across Wisconsin yesterday to see family for the 4th and I ran a few mini trials. Things I learned based on all your feedback and then trying it, because I live my life according to Ronald Reagan. “Trust but verify”

1. The truck really does seem to prefer cruising at 3000rpm. I don't think I even would have tried cruising that high.

2. 3rd gear at 60mph is mint. 4th at 75-80mph is pretty solid, thought EGTs are still sitting at about 1050 degF flat, but to maintain up any grade it’ll pretty easily jump to 1250+ degF. 5th is too long and basically useless.

3. Amayama can not get the new 4.30 gear set. BUT, knowing that 3000rpm is ideal on the highway, I’m thinking 4.56 would be alright. 5th gear would be 80mph at 3000rpm on 33s. If I go to 31s, it’ll do 75mph at 3000rpm.

I think I can live with either case.

 

[jimbote]

Ha! I'll just do a regear and ARB locker on the current axle. I already have onboard air, so nothing to add but the line to the back.

Drove home across Wisconsin yesterday to see family for the 4th and I ran a few mini trials. Things I learned based on all your feedback and then trying it, because I live my life according to Ronald Reagan. “Trust but verify”

1. The truck really does seem to prefer cruising at 3000rpm. I don't think I even would have tried cruising that high.

2. 3rd gear at 60mph is mint. 4th at 75-80mph is pretty solid, thought EGTs are still sitting at about 1050 degF flat, but to maintain up any grade it’ll pretty easily jump to 1250+ degF. 5th is too long and basically useless.

3. Amayama can not get the new 4.30 gear set. BUT, knowing that 3000rpm is ideal on the highway, I’m thinking 4.56 would be alright. 5th gear would be 80mph at 3000rpm on 33s. If I go to 31s, it’ll do 75mph at 3000rpm.

I think I can live with either case.

I don't feel like 3k is ideal. My hwy revs are on par with an mk4 tdi 5 speed and it feels just right. When i hold mine at or near 3k for extended periods, it feels like I'm stressing the motor.

 

[dieseldonato]

Why woukd 3k rpm be stressing the engine?

 

[jimbote]

Why woukd 3k rpm be stressing the engine?

I've driven this truck for over 14 years, so I have a very good feel for what happy cruising rippums are. 3k is not it. Sure, it'll do it, but it doesn't like it. I keep it under 2800 cruising most of the time, which is plenty fast.
Same goes fpr my AHU swapped westy. 3k is not fun. It also likes 2800 and below. All i can say is that I know my machines.

 

[jimbote]

Bimmer, just a few points to consider.
Get your tune right first. It's not right. I'm not a tuner, i just know how good a tdi swapped taco can be. (Probably could be better )
My truck is super happy cruising 60 at just over 2k. I can even easy flat cruise 5th down to 45ish. Tune first then gearing.
Don't gear for towing in fifth. (Not even sure this is a consideration) Neither Ws or the Rs will hold up towing heavy in fifth. 5th thrust will oil starve and spit out. 4th is for loaded towing.
If you're ever up this way, (central NC, hour sw of Raleigh), hit me up, you can drive my truck. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it may give you some perspective.

 

[burpod]

I've driven this truck for over 14 years, so I have a very good feel for what happy cruising rippums are. 3k is not it. Sure, it'll do it, but it doesn't like it. I keep it under 2800 cruising most of the time, which is plenty fast.
Same goes fpr my AHU swapped westy. 3k is not fun. It also likes 2800 and below. All i can say is that I know my machines.

this sort of "feeling" can be exteremly tune dependent.... so much at play going on.... but 3000rpm should be a very happy place. at least if tune timing isn't too advanced and other things

 

[PickleRick]

My DVZ v6 transmission 5 speed converted Passat was 3000 rpms at 70-75ish and saw countless trips to the coast when my mom lived there with no complaints. That's a 4-5 hour drive one way.

I don't worry about the engine in my 4 runner when doing 3000 rpms down the freeway, that's pushing about 80. I'm worried about throwing that DC rear drive shaft that is only a few degrees off from being too steep for a street rig!

My BHWs have always been bone stock other than the Malone stage 2 tune.

 

[TedDidIt]

{sorry jumping to the top}

I quickly got them tacked up.

Wow man, I mean just wow. I am still reading {no spoilers, haha} but that looks like an awesome project!