TB changed cranks over no start

[sonyshox23]

The cam lines up
the crank lines up
I crank the engine over 2 Times everything lined up
Put everything back together now it doesn’t start
Hook to VCDS to get a reading in group 4 and it’s way off
Engine speed 0/min
specified start 3.1 *ATDC
actual start 17.4 *BTDC
cold Start 3.5%
I checked group 19 and it just says error not available
Did The injector pump move too many teeth on the sprocket

 

[Mozambiquer]

Did you pin the injector pump?

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[sonyshox23]

Yes Pin, then removed to tighten up tensioner

 

[Mozambiquer]

Yes Pin, then removed to tighten up tensioner

Did you have the injector pump unpinned at any time? I know it's possible to get it 180 degrees off (I've done that before)[emoji34]

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[KLXD]

On my AHU I've had to move the pump a tooth advanced, CW, from the pinned position to get the timing in.

 

[Mongler98]

i never have had to move the IP to ling it up, you do the alignment slack on the tensioner , its a better method

have everything aligned up perfectly, put on belt, put on the tensioner but not have the arm that goes in the hold of the frame engaged. once you have it all ready to go, put the 10mm nut on the shaft that holds it on but still with the arm off point, now use a Flathead screwdriver to pus the arm into place, this puts tension on the belt, leave the cam sprocket bolt loos, barley finger tight. this is what takes up the movement so everything stays the same, the cam and its sprocket are a tapered friction fit. tension the belt like normal, now tighten up the cam sprocket. thats the ticket, otherwise it never perfectly lings up.
BUT i have done belts improperly before, this is how i found this out. and she ran but the timing was off a tiny bit but she ran.

point is here, if the crank (flywheel mark) cam lockout, IP lock out are all correct and the cam has the passenger side lobes sticking strait up into the air, then your fine

you should check all the wires and harnesses going to the IP and the orb of death.
been there done that, forgot to hook up the IP, lol

 

[Mozambiquer]

On my AHU I've had to move the pump a tooth advanced, CW, from the pinned position to get the timing in.

The only reason you would have to do that is if you are doing it incorrectly. You are supposed to loosen the cam pulley and lock the cam in place, then you can tension it correctly. If your injection pump pin is in place, the cam lock is in place and the crank is at top dead center, then timing should be correct. I would recommend stopping, and lining everything up, making sure that everything lines up correctly first. If not, change it and retest. Timing is very important on these (any engine for that manner) you need fuel, air and compression to run, and it has to be in the right timing.

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[KLXD]

Well Einstein, I do it correctly. Why do you assume I didn't have the cam sprocket loose? You're right, it should be correct but sometimes it isn't.

I figger with a new stiff belt it just doesn't want to sit right and you get too much slack between the pump and crank and tensioning the belt retards it.

Sony, did you mess with the fuel filter during this work?

 

[Mongler98]

KLXD
the proper way to do it is to loosen the cam nut according the https://www.myturbodiesel.com
like i have said MANY times, the secret is to not seat the tensioner until the belt is engaged on all sprockets, then slip in a flat head and push the arm on the tensioner into place. after i learned this method (i got it here from some thread somewhere ages ago) the TB job on AHU's are simple.

I do use my own DIY tools, i have a bolt i got from lowes that i cut off the threads and put a few layers of tape on to make it the correct diameter for the IP sprocket lock out so it does give me a tiny bit of play vs the correct tool, but still its not enough to get the belt on. you MUST loosen the cam bolt. i have never been able to do this job and get it more than close enough and each time its close enough, the timing graph is wrong,

 

[KLXD]

Now you? Did you not read my last post? The question "Why do you assume I didn't have the cam sprocket loose?" directed at Mozambiquer was rhetorical meaning it WAS loose.

Doesn't matter how you play with the tensioner. If there's too much slack between the pump and crank it's going to be retarded when you pull the pin and set the tensioner. You will read how some guys lean on the pin to get that bit of slack out. I've done what I related.



Now back to the OP's problem. Since the pin still goes in after the belt's tensioned I question it being a timing problem hence my question to him about the fuel filter.

He talks about timing numbers but I thought you don't get meaningful data about timing without the engine running.

 

[Steve Addy]

Did you have the injector pump unpinned at any time? I know it's possible to get it 180 degrees off (I've done that before)[emoji34]

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That could be the case on the early IDI cars, I've had several IP's with sprockets with two pin positions, you have to be careful to pick the one where the alignment mark is fairly close with the pump mounting point arrow and the alignment mark on the mounting bracket.

However, the later TDI cars did not use a sprocket with dual pin positions and I would be skeptical of using the earlier IDI sprockets on the later tdi cars just because I think the part number have changed, and also because even if it was visually the same it would introduce a potential for misaligned IP.

As for the 'one tooth' situation others have noted, I've never payed it any mind.

If you push down on the IP lock pin the belt will slip into the IP sprocket with zero slack between the it and the crank sprocket.

The IP is putting pressure on the IP sprocket to move CCW, you can feel it if you rotate the pump sprocket CW and feel the changes due to the internal cam plate and springs. That pressure wants to move against the IP lock pin in a CCW manner and that's why you have to push down on the lock pin to rotate the IP sprocket just far enough to engage the belt where it should be.

I don't call this 'one tooth' because I don't think it is, it's just moving the sprocket the fractional distance it needs to engage the belt with zero slack between it and the crankshaft.

Steve

 

[iluvmydiesels]

this may apply to mars' topic as well.
(below).

The only reason you would have to do that is if you are doing it incorrectly.

i totally do not agree. i have a situation as it is in two cars, both mk3s.
if you set up TB correctly, and in doing so the IP at the 'pin' point, it/mine never start. they will chug over and not start.
-----------
my method of 'new' TB w/advancing inj pump one tooth. having some help from other members for this. and thanks to the members who helped. this works(for me).

as a note when you are ready to tension belt, you want to pull the pump timing pin.

crank and cam line up, lock (and feelers)in cam. pin in pump. tensioner fully un-tensioned. the small idler pulley *not on*. put belt on, using white out mark an inj pump pulley tooth and the belt where the tooth fits. (doing this will guarantee you know you move the pump -*one tooth*-.)
put a wrench on pump pulley nut. if you pull pin, with tension all the way in slack, and the small idler removed, you should have enough slackness in the belt to move (say)the pump as you want. we want -*one tooth*-advance.
shouldnt be hard to do, you may need a second pair of hands, that can help, yet not get in the way, too much.
when you do this, check the crank is still on TDC, if not you will have to figure how you want to go about it so its correct. <here.
if all is correct, how you want it. put idler pulley in. tensioner can now be done. again, now, check crank is at TDC, cam should still be locked.

continue; finish timing procedure.
hope this helps, it should.
-------------------
if this is the case, you need to advance pump the one tooth, and some of us do.

some notes to get correct. going all the way to the top of my 'method'; where the timing belt is removed. (belt will be off, crank and cam line up. go from here).

we want to set the pump, if you advance the pump the one tooth, you will have to set the pump. it needs to be *retarded* to 'line up' correctly.
with inj lines removed, you loosen all 4 pump body(timing) bolts(2 are nuts). (i when doing TB job, will now remove the bottom pump bolt, so when electronically timing it you wont lose it). turn the pump full retard, i now bump the pump up some, not very much. retard is moving the pump 'away' from the motor. i now tighten the pump bolt nearest the front of the car.
pin the pump, and start where i have the crank/cam lined up and pump pinned.

 

[iluvmydiesels]

to note, my ^post above:
there are any number# of steps before the info i have in the above post, to get timing procedure correct. and there are steps after. the info in the post is mainly to set up so you can 1:mark the pump pulley, (with the white-out)and then 2:move the pump one tooth advance.
just to be clear, you have to know the whole timing procedure.

--the last note i gave is before you have the belt on, you will want to rotate the pump retarded, 1-so it will start, and 2-so you are in an area you can electronically time the motor/pump with vag-com.
if there is any question on your part as to do this method, or the position of the pump, etc, you need more information on this subject, and/or the timing procedure, and related info. you can find a good amount of it, if not all of it on this web site, along with your service manual. (which you should have).

 

[Jetta SS]

I have only done mine twice. Both times I had the directions from myturbodiesel printed out next to me. Both times no start & I had to advance a tooth. I'll try prying the ip pin like steve suggests next time.

I also had it done by a local indy vw shop for my first tb service. Car running, but low on power when I got it back - mechanic swore he followed directions and would not reinspect. That's when I got help from this site and advanced a tooth.

 

[Steve Addy]

I have only done mine twice. Both times I had the directions from myturbodiesel printed out next to me. Both times no start & I had to advance a tooth. I'll try prying the ip pin like steve suggests next time.

I also had it done by a local indy vw shop for my first tb service. Car running, but low on power when I got it back - mechanic swore he followed directions and would not reinspect. That's when I got help from this site and advanced a tooth.

No prying necessary, just push the pin down so the belt teeth will engage the IP sprocket without allowing any slack between the crankshaft sprocket and the IP sprocket across the intermediate shaft pulley.


Steve