TB change now no start!!!

hutchman

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[update] This is a thread I started when I finished my fist TB and the car started while I had the valve cover off doing open heart surgery and ran until I yelled for my wife to kill it when oil started coming up in the valve area. I was happy and put it back together and failed to pay attention to detail and over looked tightening two 10mm 12mm long timing shield bolts behind the harmonic balancer which lead me down this sad path. This thread is the saga of my cry for help, the info. to trouble shoot the problems, the solutions, parts & tools needed to rebuilding a ALH to be stronger, and more powerful that it was before!

Diesel Geek Delux kit, Metal Nerd tools, have TDI Club TB Change CD, Bentley Manual, and A4 TB PDF.

I really prepared for this .....

After new belt install, While the valve cover, vaccum pump, serpentine belt etc. was off the motor, I rotated the motor twice with the sprocket buster tool. Everything felt fine. Next I lined everything back up to see if the locks would go back on (valve and crank) and the TDC was where it was supposed to be on the fly wheel.

Next I had my wife bump the starter about four times while I watched the belt .... so far so good.

Next I had her start it and it ran for about 3-5 sec. before I saw oil come up into the valves and start to splatter.

Very happy I started putting everything back together. I had difficulty (I can elaborate more later if needed) with the motor mounts & TB middle and lower shields but I finally got it all back together.

I get everthing back together and now it won't start! I hit the key for the first time and it tried to crank and I thought I heard something like a belt squeek {update} and the motor will not crank now! I can't manually turn it with the sproket buster tool either ... it is up against something.

I inspected everthing and didn't see anything so I thought that maybe it was the serpintine belt since I had a few issues ... I used the jack method and my driveway is on a very slight incline so after several times jacking the motor up and down it got to where I couldn't jack it up as high due to getting too close to the firewall. I tried to pull my jack back but the jack slipped back and was being supported by the AC compressor.

I ended up just having to let the engine hang there until I could reposition the jack. Needless to say I was freaking out. I thought maybe I bent something in the path of the serpentine belt but everything looked OK.

Having said all that, I took the serpintine belt back off thinking something may have been stuck and tried to start the motor again and it will not crank. I tried to rotate it by hand but it won't move.

So now I'm stumped as to what to check next and what I may have broke. I was very careful to torque correctly etc.

Any ideas?

Discouraged!
 
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hutchman

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Update....

After calming down a bit I think I just realized what my problem is...

The mark I lined up in the bell housing window was not the ZERO it was a LINE (5 Spd. manual 02J tranny).

I remember reading there were a bunch of marks that could be mis read as TDC and I guess I had a brain cramp in not looking for the ZERO!

The thing that is confusing me is when I locked the cam, the crank should have been close to the window on the bell housing and the mark that I saw was a LINE not the ZERO pictured in the manual. And the thing started and ran for 5 sec. before we turned it off so I'm not sure what the problem is!

OK so knowing that. What do I need to do now??? Pull the head an see how bad the damage is???

What could we be talking here ... piston(s), valves etc.?

Thanks for advice and replies!
 
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jasonTDI

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PM sent.

All is ok, you didn't fubar it.
 

hutchman

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That would be nice but I can't even rotate it manually now and I could before!

My dad thinks I didn't have the tensioner set right and the TB jumped some.

I have a compression tester. Should I just try to undo the belt, reset everthing and try again and if it should happen to start just check each cyl. or do I need to pull the head to see how bad I screwed things up? At this point I don't want to make things worse. I've hit the starter a few times and tried to turn it manually a few times already and it just won't go.

If I draw a line from the raised notch on the tensioner through the middle of the two holes where the tension tool goes it would run from about 10 o'clock to 4'oclock. The notch on the inside ring is lined up with the raised outer indicator just as shown in the Bentley manual and I torqued the bolt according to the Bentley Manual.

I looked at the tensioner and it is still as when I installed it.

Don't know what my next move should be.
jasonTDI said:
PM sent.

All is ok, you didn't fubar it.
 

hutchman

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... another bit of information in case it matters.

I also replaced the coolant pump. I drained the radiator and I had the coolant resevior removed from the vehicle to clean it and do migration mod. so there probably wasn't much coolant in the system when I started it the first time but like I mentioned before it only ran 3-5 sec. before we turned it off.

Just ran long enough to make sure I was in the starting window before putting it all back together.
 

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1) Take the valve cover off and tell us if the cam lobes are close to the #1 TDC positions.

2) take note that the PDF clearly states the ZERO in the window is for AUTOMATICs and there is another picture for MANUALS. Have solace in the fact that you are not the only one to overlook the printed words under the pictures.

3) Try manualy turning the engine backwards up to 90 degrees using a 19mm 12point socket on the crank bolt. Have someone watch the cam followers while the engine is turned (or have someone turn the engine while you watch). Do they move smoothly and follow the cam?

If the lobes of #1 are generally pointing as they would for TDC, turn the engine backwards until they do (assuming you can't go forward). If they can be positioned to cam lock position, lock the cam, release belt tension, then remove the cam sprocket. Next turn the engine crank by hand to find the TDC mark. If you look at the crank sprocket, you'll see the "nub" that fits into a hole in the harmonic ballancer. That should be around 8 o'clock position.

If the cam lobes are not roughly TDC for #1, then turn the crank by hand until you feel contact with a valve. Turn it the other direction until you feel a valve. Turn it back half way (45 degrees) and you should be able to turn the cam (put the cam sprocket back on and the bolt but not the belt) one "lobe" movement in normal direction of rotation. Repeat until until cam is at locking position for lobes on #1. Rotate the crank slowly as necessary and you should find the timing mark.

After you get cam locked and the timing mark found again proceed with the following.

Now rotate the pump as necessary to lock it. Loosen the three bolts, position roughly in the middle of the slots. Pop the cam sprocket loose again and install the belt. Tension it. Tighten the cam bolt. Tighten the pump bolts. Remove cam lock tool. Remove pump lock tool. If everything went well, you should be able to rotate the engine by hand. Continue rotating until the belt has gone a full rotation. If no contact is felt then try starting.
 

quartersaw

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hutchman said:
Update....

After calming down a bit I think I just realized what my problem is...

The mark I lined up in the bell housing window was not the ZERO it was a LINE (5 Spd. manual 02J tranny).

.....My '99 NB TDC mark is a line,and not a zero.....Actually,it is the same mark that is shown on the A3/B4 timing belt 'how to'....
 
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Metal Man

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A little late to help you now , but before I take a belt off I put the lock tools in and find my TDC mark. Then I mark it with paint so there is no doubt if I'm looking at the correct mark or not.
 

hutchman

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Thanks MOGolf!

MOGolf said:
2) take note that the PDF clearly states the ZERO in the window is for AUTOMATICs and there is another picture for MANUALS.
I think the thing that freaked me out was the picture in the Bentley manual shows a Zero for the manual and the PDF showed a line. At first I thought that was my problem but then the more I thought about it I realized that it had to be right or it wouldn't have ran.

MOGolf said:
3) Try manualy turning the engine backwards up to 90 degrees using a 19mm 12point socket on the crank bolt.
Will I have to get new harmonic balancer bolts or can I reuse them? They are from the DG kit?

MOGolf said:
Remove pump lock tool. If everything went well, you should be able to rotate the engine by hand. Continue rotating until the belt has gone a full rotation. If no contact is felt then try starting.
The cam sprocket is what I used to turn the motor manually after installing the new TB and JasonTDI told me that was a big NO NO on new TB installs. I didn't know that ... so I guess the sprocket buster should be used just to counter hold the sprocket when torquing it. I point this out for others attempting this.
 

hutchman

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That is a good idea! I'll do that once I recover.

Metal Man said:
A little late to help you now , but before I take a belt off I put the lock tools in and find my TDC mark. Then I mark it with paint so there is no doubt if I'm looking at the correct mark or not.
 

MOGolf

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Harmonic balancer bolts are reusable unless they get stripped out (the internal hex strips on overtightened bolts, or those seized by corrosion).
 

vwjettadsl

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Hutchman,

Did you figure it out yet?:confused: I just finished my TB job and I have the same problem!:mad: I'm going to try the suggestions posted in the thread, hopefully that will help.


Later
 

hutchman

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Did yours start at all? Mine had a little life.

No, I haven't had time to work on it yet. I might try this evening but I'll probably need help cranking it and watching for stuff. Wife doesn't do a good job of cranking and doesn't know what to look for (not a TDI chick!) so I'm going to try and have a fellow gear-head friend come over.

I'll post an update once I know more. I need to go get a 12 point socket for the crank since my sockets are the cheap kind.

vwjettadsl said:
Hutchman,

Did you figure it out yet?:confused: I just finished my TB job and I have the same problem!:mad: I'm going to try the suggestions posted in the thread, hopefully that will help.


Later
 

vwjettadsl

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Mine didn't start at all. I'm getting ready to go work on it right now, hopefully I can get it running soon.

Later--Ben
 

hutchman

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MOGolf,

Should I use a feeler gauge and also check the gap of the followers? To do this do I turn the lobe all the way up for the follower I'm checking?

Since the engine hasn't ran in a while will the followers move even since they are probably not pumped up with oil?

Thanks!
 

hutchman

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Update ....

Had a friend come over and help me try the things MOGolf and others suggested.

Took tension off TB and removed cam sprocket. The cam sprocket bolt wasn't really tight which is probably what got me to this point. It was torqued and it ran for a while so I don't know what happened for it to get loose. I probably tried somehting and forgot about it ....

Took off Valve Cover and looked at cam. #1 cyl left most lobe was pointing to firewall, lobe to the right was all the way down.

Verified that we couldn't move the engine forward (using the crank this time :)) so with TB off cam and fuel pump, tried to rotate it counter clockwise.

It would move but there was pressure. It didn't feel the same as when I turned the motor by the cam sprocket prior to first starting after new TB install. If fact I think we may have tried too hard because we heard a "boop" noise like something being launched out of a tube and some things hit the pavement and we both looked up in horror at the mysterious parts erupting from the valve area!

At first I thought it was one of the followers but on closer inspection and looking at the Bentley manual it looks like something to do with the bottom of the follower/lifter or the valve itself:





I don't think we moved the motor much after that due to being scared of stuff falling down into the cylinder and scoring things up.

Can anyone identify these parts? From a little oil splatter we think these shot out of Cyl #3 area but that is just a guess.

So do I need to pull the head now and inspect the damage??? If so, are there any tips to doing this?

Been checking out the Bentley manual, it says move crank to NOT TDC and cam to TDC for Cyl #1. Any risk of hurting the cylinders by moving the crank or cam anymore following the head removal procedure?

I'm cool with taking the head & oil pan off ... I might start twitching some if I have to pull the entire motor.

Any and all advice is appreciated on what to do next.
 

jasonTDI

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They look like what is left of the lifters adn based on the flat part it look as if there was some serious damage to the face from before. Notice the grind marks. Not good my friend, not good. At this point you need to remove the head and check for bad valves and replace the lifters. I wish someone was closer. Shop around for a machine shop or get a hold of one of us and SEND it out. Way to many shops don't know how to fix heads right.
 

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Bits and pieces of a cam follower. It should be obvious which one.

Yes, you are at the point of removing the head. A machine shop that repairs cylinder heads may be able to salvage yours. But that judgement will have to wait for the examination after removal.
 

hutchman

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I'll post an update & maybe pictures once I get the head off.
 

hutchman

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Yep, tripple check the cam sprocket is 33 Ft. Lbs.! Mine slipped or I loosened it for some reason & don't remember why!

No Exit said:
all this from a botched timing belt???? OMG
 

No Exit

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AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH what a nightmare!!! I just ordered my belt kit and tools... got my first torque wrench too :D. OMG OMG OMG Im gonna panic. I got as far as getting my serp. belt off. My metalnerd stuff, belt kit and vag com are coming.

On the bright side... my car wasnt running before I started ripping its guts out anyways so its not like its gonna be any worse after.
 

hutchman

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You'll be OK, just take your time and double check stuff like the cam sprocket torque :). Do it on a level surface too!
 

No Exit

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gonna sound stupid here but how am I supposed to have it on a level surface? I've got the front end up on 2 jack stands... so the cars tilted back a few degrees. I dont think I've ever seen anyone put a car up on 4 jack stands before... and somehow it doesnt seem safe. Am I missing something here?
 

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He mean make sure the ground is level not the car.....read slower....
 

hutchman

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Yea, I meant that if you are going to use the jack method, do it on perfectly level ground or you may have the fun I did.
 

hutchman

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I found two auto machine shops who claim they have reworked TDI heads for the local dealer. I don't think they have done many though when I tried to press for how many.

Think it would be OK or should I send it out to a TDI guru .... which one would it be??? Who is close to me?
 

No Exit

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I'd go with someone on this forum who's reputable. The TDI gurus dont seem to charge an unfair price and you know you'll have a better shot at it coming back perfect.
 

hutchman

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That is a great thread! Thanks! I really would like to send it to someone that has done a lot of these and do it right. Hopefully I can get the head off by Monday .... have military drill this weekend so I won't have as much free time this weekend as I normally do.
 
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