Suppose some idiot thought 505 00 ~ 505 01...

Diesel Addict

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nortones2 said:
HTHS is beside the point. Its the boundary lubrication that matters with cam wear. Admittedly I am pushing out the boat on my knowledge here, but it seems to me that cam wear would be highest at start up, cold engine and high revs. Which is where HTHS has little relevance, as there isnt ANY oil!
HTHS is not beside the point at all. True, upon a cold start, there's very little oil and this is where the anti-wear additives like zinc and phosphorus play a crucial role. A G5 base stock would help here too because it's polar and sticks to metal better. But HTHS is totally relevant once the oil starts flowing. A high HTHS viscosity will ensure the proper separation of metal under high-temp, high-stress conditions. Cam lobes are an excellent example of such an environment. So are crankshaft bearings. Yet the HTHS is idential for both standards and we know that the 505.01 requires lower SAPS. This tells me (but I could be wrong) that the 505.01 standard was about increased protection for the catalyst, not the cam lobes.
 

dieseldorf

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Diesel Addict said:
Yet the HTHS is idential for both standards and we know that the 505.01 requires lower SAPS. This tells me (but I could be wrong) that the 505.01 standard was about increased protection for the catalyst, not the cam lobes.
DA, why do you keep saying this :confused: 505.01 is NOT a lo-SAPS oil. 504/507 is the first lo-SAPS product and is required in the newest cars equipped with DPF.
 

Diesel Addict

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dieseldorf said:
DA, why do you keep saying this :confused: 505.01 is NOT a lo-SAPS oil. 504/507 is the first lo-SAPS product and is required in the newest cars equipped with DPF.
I said lower, not low. It is in fact a medium-SAPS standard. 505.00 was full SAPS.
 

SuburbanTDI

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Diesel Addict said:
I said lower, not low. It is in fact a medium-SAPS standard. 505.00 was full SAPS.
Yes, I've seen the chart that DA posted.

A number of oils were sorted and then marked as "High" "Low" and "Medium" SAP.

DA, it seems your fixation on marketing jargon is not allowing you to see the big picture. I won't claim to grasp the chemistry but I do see that you are battling the collective wisdom of the board ~and~ not producing any solid evidence to support your claims.

It is possible, although not likely, that everyone is wrong. It will take more than this though to convince the wider audience.




It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC)
 

nortones2

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DA: I posted already as have many others: the reason for the development of the 505.01 WAS the FAILURE of existing oils when tested in the PD engine. You only see what you want to see, it seems. If VW suggest an HTHS value which happens to be the same for 505.00 and 505.01, then in the absence of data, I'd tend to take that value as fit for purpose.
 

Thermo1223

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Diesel Addict said:
That is incorrect and it would be illegal. But whether a particular VW dealer or VWOA will give you crap about it is another matter. I'm not worried because I think the chance of me having to use my warranty is slim.
I am aware of the Moss Warrenty Act and I looked just for arguement sake I couldn't find something saying VW would be in the wrong for requiring a specific oil formulation for a specific engine.

It does not seem illegal, you bought a car, the owner manuals states it needs a specific oil formulation in it. You don't have to just get it from the dealer. If you don't use this oil it can cause engine damage so why would VW not void your warrenty if they know you have completely ignored this fact.

To me it seems completely logical.
 

Diesel Addict

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nortones2, can you point me to the first-hand source that says the 505.01 standard was developed because the then current oils (505.00 I assume) were inadequate in protecting the cam lobes of PD engines? Yes I've heard this before, but only as rumor or speculation, nothing more. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm genuinely interested.

Thermo, yes if your non-approved oil causes damage, then you void your warranty, but only specifically to the damaged part. But you don't void your warranty just for using non-approved or untested parts or fluids. Does that make sense? BTW, I'm not ignoring VW's oil specification. I'm using something that's even better and I have the right to do so regardless of whether someone else likes it or not.
 

nortones2

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DA: I will look, but we're going back >7 years. However, I have read an account and may have a copy of the article, which I will gladly reference:)
 

Thermo1223

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Diesel Addict said:
Thermo, yes if your non-approved oil causes damage, then you void your warranty, but only specifically to the damaged part. But you don't void your warranty just for using non-approved or untested parts or fluids. Does that make sense? BTW, I'm not ignoring VW's oil specification. I'm using something that's even better and I have the right to do so regardless of whether someone else likes it or not.
Ah yes you may think it's better, hell it MAY even be better but the service writer at the dealership has a company policy to abide by. Any non approved oil would void warrenty on said part of course, but what of the colateral(sp) damage it may cause to the rest of the engine. When you break something inside an engine it's hardly ever one thing, we all know they just tend to rip themselves apart given time and opportunity(sp). :D

Also this brings up a point at least for the dealer to make. Who are you one customer to question the knowledge of 1000's on man hours in R&D on this engine just to prove you can use something other then manufactor spec.

I'm not questioning you just bringing up the "what if" argument.
 

Diesel Addict

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I actually hate dealership service departments so much that even if I had a legitimate warranty claim, I'd rather fix the problem myself rather than put up with any dealer crap and risk having them screw up my car even more. In fact, I've already done one warranty repair on this car and will continue to do so. Sometimes I actually forget that I still have a warranty on this car as I'm so used to having older cars that are well past their warranty.:)

Speaking of "what if" scenarios, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the VW engineers who test 505.01 oils for a living use something else in their own PD TDI's too. It's not that they are bad oils, but the truth is they are tested to be merely "good enough" to protect the interests of VW corporate. I really don't think that the list of approved oils is the exhaustive list of the best oils in the world. It wouldn't even make any sense if it were.
 

Frank M

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Diesel Addict said:
but the truth is they are tested to be merely "good enough" to protect the interests of VW corporate. .
whether you agree or not, part of VW and any other car company's interest is to not have engines that fail after the warranty is up.
This does allot of damage to a manufacturer's reliability reputation.
 
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AndyH

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jombl said:
That is easily the most damning thing I've read yet.

If the only thing standing between amsoil and VW505.01 approval is "a check for about 3000 Euro for final release" (and the actual cost is only €2680) then it's clear and obvious that amsoil cannot pass VW505.01 as even anyone here reading this board could write that check, let alone amsoil corporate.
Jombl,

You certainly have the right to your beliefs and opinions - but please at least agree that what you've posted are just those and nothing more. I'm not here to change your mind - but I certainly will raise the 'bs' flag when I think appropriate.

To both you and Frank,

This is a free-market world, for the most part. In this system, if a consumer feels there's added-value, they have the option of choosing to buy from that vendor. In the case of the 505.01 release - there is NO added value - the monies are paid to re-run tests that have already been run at least 3 times earlier in the process. OEM approvals elsewhere in the industry (look at Cummins CES for just one example) consist only of 'pay me, give me your test results, and we'll put you on our marketing list for a year'. Apparently, AMSOIL doesn't feel the need to be on the VW list. They have that right.

As a point on 'corporate integrity', please remember that prior to 1 Jan 06, AMSOIL had a 5W-40 European product - and they expressly FORBID its use in PD TDIs. This recommendation from the company remained until the VW requirements were known, the oil was reformulated, retested, and proven to at least exceed the requirements of 505.01 (remember that the company absolutely does not do 'ties' in any way - the products need to exceed, and exceed by a wide margin).

AMSOIL makes their position CRYSTAL clear on certification. They have certified/released/approved products - and they have those that are not. Since the company began, their 'minimum standard' has been '3-times longer, 3-times better' -- if they can't do that, they don't bottle it. Period.

There are many folks that need that paper - and they have the dealer's Castrol product and others to use in their engines. No trouble at all! But there are others that are looking for performance over the certificate - and they'll use what they want. They both have the right.

One last time for both of you - I've seen the documentation, done my own research, met with people at AMSOIL, and from Lubrizol, and spoken with people from VW and licensed labs and have come to my own conclusions. You don't have to like them, or believe them, or value them in any way. All I ask of you is that if you have something to add, you bring some facts.

Just in case my position needs a bit of clarification after all these threads - it's very clear and simple:

- Use synthetic - There's no excuse to ever use petroleum in a TDI
- Use API-only oil as a last resort - VW-specs come first, ACEA 2nd

Andy
 
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Frank M

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Tremendous Market for VW Certified 505.01

AndyH said:
To both you and Frank,
. Apparently, AMSOIL doesn't feel the need to be on the VW list. They have that right.Andy
The need for VW Certified 505.01 is tremendous.

I am curious as to why a company like Mobil has not had their Delvac 1 reformulated for 505.00 & 505.01, tested at an independant lab and then stick the "meets 505" on the label.

Andy you are in the oil business, what is your take on this?:confused:
 
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AndyH

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Diesel Addict said:
A G5 base stock would help here too because it's polar and sticks to metal better.
DA - This is a marketing point, but I don't believe it to be a legitimate one.

We know that the zinc, phosphorus, and boron components are the lion's share of the anti-wear package. And we know that to work, they must plate on the surface so they can form a sacrificial layer. Once the surfaces are plated, exactly what on the engine are the polar ester molecules hanging on to? See my point?

Another example -- EP and AW additives must stick to the surfaces to protect them - but so must anti-rust/corrosion additives - they compete for surface area and are somewhat mutually exclusive.

Andy
 

AndyH

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nortones2 said:
DA: I posted already as have many others: the reason for the development of the 505.01 WAS the FAILURE of existing oils when tested in the PD engine. You only see what you want to see, it seems. If VW suggest an HTHS value which happens to be the same for 505.00 and 505.01, then in the absence of data, I'd tend to take that value as fit for purpose.
I'd love to see the reasons as well. Thanks Mate!

From only a look at the VWAG standards progression, and the slightly lagging ACEA moves, it looks like this was simply an evolutionary step in quality while combining the gas and diesel requirements in a dual-role product -- in much the same way that the ACEA moved to combine the Ax/Bx sequences.

Andy
 

Diesel Addict

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Andy, that makes good sense. In fact, even my theory that the 505.01 standard was about increased protection for the catalyst doesn't make much sense to me anymore because the only difference in SAPS limits between the two standards seems to be ash, and as far as I know ash would only affect DPF's which the PD's don't have. So it probably was like you said, an evolutionary step toward making a multi-purpose oil, and perhaps also a step toward the future of low-SAPS oils. Doesn't the EU now require (as of last fall) DPF's on all new diesel vehicles?

About the additives and coating, perhaps the additives don't disrupt the magnetic attraction between the ester molecules and metal. But anyway, I see the main benefit of esters as being their superb thermal stability. The polarity is a plus.

Frank, I agree with you that no manufacturer wants engine breakdowns right after the warranty expires, but they usually don't have to worry about that. Even if they wanted that to happen, it would be difficult to design engines to self-destruct after x number of years. Typically what happens, and I'm sure you know this, engines gradually get worn, lose compression, accumulate sludge, etc., but there are usually no sudden breakdowns.
 
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Roketman

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Well I just put 505.00 in my engine because VW no longer sells 5W-40 its's 5W-30. If it was winter I might have purchased it.
 

KALaBenne

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Almost all 505.01 oils are 5W-30 with the exception of pentosin and lubromoly I think. You really should get that oil out and get some 505.01 or better in there.
 

tditom

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profile says 2006.

r-man, if you insist on using a 5W40, then you should use Pentosin or Lubro-moly 505.01. Many PD owners on the board have switched to Mobil1 Turbo Diesel Truck for many miles with no apparent problems.
 

Roketman

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I have a 2006 Jetta BRM engine with 90,000mi. I checked the Camshaft during the oil change and there was a little wear. No scouring. I don't plan on keeping the oil in the engine for long. But honestly I couldn't find any 505.01 5w-40 oil. Castrol Syntec had VW listed on the bottle as a recomendation.
 

Dimitri16V

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SuburbanTDI said:
Not True. The PD engine has a cam operated fuel pump producing fuel pressures upwards of 30,000 psi, it is this cam lobe that is being protected.

DO NOT believe people that tell you that 505.01 oil is not neccesary for the PD engine, VW was not having a laugh by requiring 505.01 oil in the PD TDI Engine.


[edited to correct fuel pressure]
and which cam lobes never show any wear even when the lifters are worn out..

let me rephrase it for you and every other 505.01 Kool-aid , VW brainwashed person here

505.01 won't save your PD engine
 

thebigarniedog

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Dimitri16V said:
and which cam lobes never show any wear even when the lifters are worn out..

let me rephrase it for you and every other 505.01 Kool-aid , VW brainwashed person here

505.01 won't save your PD engine
LOL, yep you are right. All PD owners are probably damned, irrespective of the oil used. The only issue is whether or not you have a potential warranty claim if it goes south on you within the warranty period.

Lets review how that works. Wrong oil = no claim; right oil = an argument for a claim. So when you go and list your PD equipped car that would otherwise still be within the warranty period for sale, boldly proclaim in your sales add that you used the wrong oil thus terminating any argument of warranty coverage. Brilliant argument :D .
 

nortones2

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Unless there is some other factor in NA, there is NO evidence that 505.01 is deficient. In other parts of the world there are vastly more PD engines in use, and they have a good reliabilty record -enginewise at least.
 

TooSlick

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You could run a VW 505.01 oil in an older TDI - even one that's heavily modified - and never experience an oil related failure.

I believe it's really more an inherent design and/or metallurgy issue with the PD engine itself. I'd be willing to bet the PD contact pressures at the cam lobe to lifter interface are comparable to a full blown race engine with flat tappets, a radical cam profile and very stiff valve springs. Add some highly abrasive soot into that mix and it's very difficult to provide reliable lubrication 100% of the time.

TS
 
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