Subarus, Head Gaskets

[kennethsime]

The significant other is looking at used Subarus. I know a lot of TDI enthusiasts also like subies, so I figured asking here would be as good as anywhere else.

1) What are maintenance costs like with subarus? This seems to be a tough question to answer. I would generally assume asian cars (toyotas esp) are cheaper to maintain than what I'm used to, but 4wd = more expensive, and I've read Subarus are just quirky enough to put them noticeably ahead of the pack in terms of maintenance costs. But in general I guess, will parts be more expensive than equivalent toyota parts?

2) The 100k mile/leaking head gasket issue. How bad is it? What years are affected? Is there a permanent fix? Why didn't Subaru do a recall? If she picked up a late-90s/early 2000s Subie suffering from the issue, how much are we talking at a Subaru mechanic?

3) Engine. I know there's a 2.2 and a 2.5, is there any reason not to be bias towards the smaller engine?

Thanks for any and all advice, hope this was the right place to ask the questions.

 

[PeterV]

Our '00 Forester winter beater has been great the only prob was the auto tranny but that was a broken pawl. Ours was an AZ car so NH has just started to eat it. BUT no head gasket probs.

Maint has been really near zippo other than the tranny We did a TB and oil changes the heated seats wipers and AC have been flawless. But that is our car we have had this one for 5 years MPG are 25 area.

The heads can be around 400 or so but yours may be higher.

 

[davebugs]

Ken,

I'll PM you an excellent website.

Generally the 2.2's are rather bullet proof.

The 2.5 DOHC's(95-99) wimpy. But if it isn't run hot and you fix the HG's with OEM will easily go another 100k.

Starting in 2000 with the 2.5 SOHC's they had a different HG issue with eternal seepage usually.

 

[Windex]

When you get the PM on the website,.. Should start with "N" do a search on open deck and close deck. The closed deck designs are less prone to head gaskets.

My 2005 legacy was a great car, but with the turbo it went like hell past anything but a gas station. 22-23 MPG tops when driven with a light foot.

 

[tdidieselbobny]

I'm very happy w/ the one I bought at beginning of year after the 94 Camry wagon needed more repairs than it was worth. It's actually my son's car-bought w/ 149k,now just over 160k. He gets upper 20's w/ 5 spd-the 2.2 motor. It has been reliable-just replaced battery, will need cv boot replaced. We had the TB changed beginning of August-I had no maintenance history on car,sticker in engine bay said it was done @ 60k or so(faded writing). Not sure about the 2.5's-best thing is check the Subaru forums w/ model year you're looking at-maybe find a Subaru mechanic near you to check it out and pick their brain on what to expect.... I like the TDI,but a Subaru wagon might be my next vehicle if I don't gat a pickup.Also helps that a guy that works on Subarus is only about 5 miles fom me.If it were me,I'd try to find a Subaru w/2.2 motor if possible(I don't know what years had the 2.2).....

 

[hevster1]

Head gaskets are common. Easiest way to do them is pull the engine and do the t-belt at the same time. Generally I use the OEM ones but some of the aftermarket ones claim to stop the seep/leaks. As far as how much, that depends on if you are doing the t-belt kit at the same time and also depending on which engine, turbo equipped etc.

Everyone seems to believe there should be recalls for everything and that everything is a defect. 100k is well out of warranty and well within the realm of a head gasket being necessary. Now there are numerous other engines which will usually go far longer but the boxer layout seems to invite oil seep. Take a look at some American iron and see how long they last. It also wasn't long ago that a typical H-G would be shot at 60-80k. Cars are generally more reliable now but they still break sometimes. Subies also sometimes have other issues as do other cars. I don't think they are more expensive to work on than others. I do know that many people do not maintain them.

 

[davebugs]

Head gaskets are common. Easiest way to do them is pull the engine and do the t-belt at the same time. Generally I use the OEM ones but some of the aftermarket ones claim to stop the seep/leaks. As far as how much, that depends on if you are doing the t-belt kit at the same time and also depending on which engine, turbo equipped etc.

On 2.5's OEM HG's only. Get latest crazy head bolt torque sequence info from dealer.

Yes - yank the engine, reseal rear baffle/oil seperator plate, leave rear main alone, crank seal, cam seals, islers, WP, timing belt, accessory belts, OEM thermostat(I prefer OEM seals too).

Valve Cover gaskets are up to you, fresh plugs.

Make sure you get crank bolt TIGHT!

I always check the heads for true and usually have they dressed up, cleaned and checked anyways.

Good for another 100k.

 

[hevster1]

On 2.5's OEM HG's only. Get latest crazy head bolt torque sequence info from dealer.

Yes - yank the engine, reseal rear baffle/oil seperator plate, leave rear main alone, crank seal, cam seals, islers, WP, timing belt, accessory belts, OEM thermostat(I prefer OEM seals too).

Valve Cover gaskets are up to you, fresh plugs.

Make sure you get crank bolt TIGHT!

I always check the heads for true and usually have they dressed up, cleaned and checked anyways.

Good for another 100k.

I have seen the others leak as well. Not as often but I have had them come in. I also use OEM seals etc.

 

[davebugs]

These engines are easy to pull.

And the engines are pretty easy to work on in or out of the car.

Also a lot of engine parts will often fit about a 5 year range and a lot of stuff fits the 2.2 and the 2.5.

 

[nkgagne]

Mom had an 01 2.5 Forester and the driver's side HG didn't last 80k km. I researched then and it's a common issue with the 2000-2002 2.5 engine. the 2.2 wasn't offered after the 90's if I recall correctly, except maybe on the base Impreza. Great engine, though, the 2.2 - non interference so timing belt snapping was not an OUCH problem. Not so for the 2.5.

 

[davebugs]

Mom had an 01 2.5 Forester and the driver's side HG didn't last 80k km. I researched then and it's a common issue with the 2000-2002 2.5 engine. the 2.2 wasn't offered after the 90's if I recall correctly, except maybe on the base Impreza. Great engine, though, the 2.2 - non interference so timing belt snapping was not an OUCH problem. Not so for the 2.5.

They extended the warranty on a lot of those. The 2.5 DOHC's of the late 90's had a failure that let combustion gases get into the coolant passages and cause a cooling system issue. The rod bearings aren't the best to begin with and overheating them doesn't add to their life. This type of failure is Subaru only a far as I know and they'd pass a compression check(cold), didn't make white smoke(burning coolant) or any of the usual HG stuff. Often you'd have to run them for 45 minutes for the problem to surface.

Anyways starting in 2000 (1999 in the Forester and maybe Impreza - I forget) the 2.5 SOHC's leak coolant externally. Subaru relabels Hotts radiator weld I believe it's called. Only like 2 bucks at the dealer. This was part of the official fix. And if you have a HG issue, or even do a HG job you should add this stuff. If you own one of these cars and it's not leaking yet I'd add this stuff too.

The good news on the 2.5 SOHC is that they usually just weeped coolant and folks would see the leak on the ground, maybe occasionally add coolant and baby th ecar for a long time. On the DOHC's they'd just blow all the coolant out the overflow bottle and overheat.

And typically the coolant starts to leak between cyl 2 & 4 - that's the drivers side, usually more towards the back cylinder. Look for residue there.

But seriousely if done before a bunch of heat cycles they'll easily go another 100k. If they have had a bunch of head cycles you're kinda screwed. The rod bearings often fail in lets say 3 months. And this is after doing the HG job. And JY enignes have the same issue. Which is why I used to swap in 2.2's(a much more reliable engine) in for DOHC 2.5's.

I haven't done much on the 2000 and up stuff. Just a few engine swaps (2.5 for 2.5) and HG jobs. Less than a dozen of the newer stuff.

 

[Ski in NC]

Buddy across the street bought a used subie wagon, not sure of year/engine. A week after buying it he was pissed as it was using/leaking coolant. He put in some sort of leak stop and it worked. That was a year and half ago. Still working.

 

[GTiTDi]

Food for thought on this Subie head gasket failure issue...came across this awhile ago

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gasket-problems-explained/

This is interesting as well
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/732644-post23.html

 

[White Crow]

I can't vouch for the newer ones but the mid 80's early 2000's the 100K service was pull the engine replace the cracked heads, rebuild the oil pump, (clattering lifters), replace the timing belt plugs etc., replace the radiator and put it all back together. The other issue in the north east was the frame rust. They seem to be very popular so they must have over come their issues or people won't be buying them.

 

[davebugs]

They actually rarely rust underneath. Just the typical Japanese rust at the wheel wells, occasionally you'll see one with rust in the rear door sill corners - run away from those.


I've done probably 100 of the 95-99's. NEVER had a cracked head. As an aside their valve stem seals seem to last forever.

On the 2.5's often the oil pump screws come loose. I install the OEM oil pump O ring and ultra grey to seal the pump.

And due to how these HG's leak (combustion chamber into coolant passage) have never seen a miracle cure work on a 95-99 2.5. I've bought plenty of them with clogged radiators from folks trying stuff, along with removing the thermostat and installing water pumps trying to fix the real problem.

On a 2000 and up a HG leak cure may work because it's actually the coolant that leaks - not the combustion chamber.

If you buy a 2.5 DOHC and there is crap the PO put into the radiator just put a 2.2 in it. Odds are decent that if you do the HG job the rod bearings will fail before long. They have overheated the engine too many times trying cheap fixes.

 

[BobZ]

This is a decent forum to look through - http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/index.php - I was looking for a used one as you are now. I found that after addressing the issues that they seemed to have along with owners keeping them for a long time, the mileages were very high on them. <- an indication that if you take care of them, they last... novel idea huh??? However, when they were for sale, it was folks dumping a problem car. I looked at about 15 private sale units. All were within few thousand miles of needing a timing belt or over due along with oil puddles underneath them.
Due to the requirements of the awd for the wife in a new job, we ended up getting a 2012 Impreza in hopes of longevity and no longer timing belt but chain (we also got the 5 speed manual to stay away from the CVT). Not without issue though - reports of burning oil in the new subies...

 

[supton]

I've read of rear wheel bearings being an issue, and clutches. From what I can tell they are higher-geared in first, at least compared to our TDi's. The 4spd auto is known for having the occasional hard shift, and being hard on gas--but otherwise rather failure-free. The 4WD system is different between the two; manual is 50/50 split while auto is 80/20, at least until wheel slip is detected. That's all I know about Subaru, beyond the aforementioned head gasket stuff.

Friend of mine stated that not all 2.2's were non-interference--his daughter had one of the interference motors, and they found out the usual way. Not sure if it was a one-year issue or what.

 

[kennethsime]

I've read of rear wheel bearings being an issue, and clutches. From what I can tell they are higher-geared in first, at least compared to our TDi's. The 4spd auto is known for having the occasional hard shift, and being hard on gas--but otherwise rather failure-free. The 4WD system is different between the two; manual is 50/50 split while auto is 80/20, at least until wheel slip is detected. That's all I know about Subaru, beyond the aforementioned head gasket stuff.

Friend of mine stated that not all 2.2's were non-interference--his daughter had one of the interference motors, and they found out the usual way. Not sure if it was a one-year issue or what.

Hadn't heard about the manual/auto difference, that's pretty major.

I believe the '99-2001 2.2's were interference engines, they introduced some changes that year.

 

[MrMopar]

Everyone seems to believe there should be recalls for everything and that everything is a defect. 100k is well out of warranty and well within the realm of a head gasket being necessary. Now there are numerous other engines which will usually go far longer but the boxer layout seems to invite oil seep.

I'm just baffled that anyone would accept that. A boxer engine is still a piston engine, so there isn't really anything exotic about this engine design that has been in production (in one form or another) for about 80 years. Why do people look at lots of other piston engines, see head gaskets that can easily last a lifetime of the car, and then accept a TON of Subarus that blow them in under 100k and just say "Well, this car is different . . ."?

 

[supton]

I don't accept it. I suppose I would if I could pick up on the cheap; but no way, not on a new car. I wouldn't accept anything outside of wear items prior to 100k, and headgaskets, last I knew of, are not wear items. I know the manufacturers would be tickled pink if all consumers would buy new cars every 50k; but many of us run well past 100k and look at these factors as part of the buying decision.

Stupid design mistakes cast a shadow over the brand.

 

[IFRCFI]

Just sold a 2002 Outback at 142K miles. Head gaskets are prone to failure on certain years of the 2.5. I had the 3.0 boxer engine....very reliable.

Inner CV boots go due to exhaust heat. They are good for 80 or 100K. Let them go too long and you'll need new half shafts. The 3.0 needs new valve cover gaskets. Plugs are impossible to change without a lift...again 3.0.

Overall, a good car. Tough as nails, heavy, and great in snow.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[BadMonKey]

I do know that many people do not maintain them.

ding, ding, ding

We have the biggest Subaru dealer in the world here and one of the most popular cars among hippies and mountain dwellers. I've helped several people here at work with them and always get the same blank stare when I ask questions about the maintenance history.

They have a repair place here with over a dozen bays, used car lot, and parts warehouse that only touches Subaru's. The place is as big as a Wall-mart http://www.superrupair.com/.

 

[Thermo1223]

The good part about owning the turbo powered 2.5 you are must likely immune to the HG problems. You tend to have other things to worry about but at least pulling the engine isn't one of them.

A word on the AWD & transmission choices.

Manual 5SPD is all mechanical via a torsen center diff, no electronics. Very reliable but not as efficient at power transfer(IE not smart). Split 50/50 unless slippage occurs then a max of 30/70-70/30 after that I believe.

Front diff & transmisson share gear oil. Rear is obviously by itself. 75w90 GL5 on all. You can get a viscous LSD in the rear depending on year/trim. It is a sealed unit which with age can sometime lessen it's limited slip effect. The LSD is sealed not the diff.

Automatic 4 speed has three fill points, the front diff takes gear oil, transmission ATF, rear diff gear oil. A lot of people drain the front diff & transmisson and NEVER add gear oil back to the front diff. You can guess what happens shorty after. Some use a mutli plate clutch to transfer power front & rear. Some also employ a lockable torsen diff as well. It depends on the model/year and is usually refereed to as VTD. The first kinda splits 90/10 untill slippage is detected and using a system like ESP shuffles it around as needed. The latter employs a more sport like power spit of 45/55 and again shuffles it around as it sees fit. The addition of the lockable center diff adds to the usefulness but it is not a rock crawler. The torsen diff basically sits behind the clutch plates so if needed all automatics can be driven FWD only if a problem occurs.

My 2005 was a dumb car in that all you had was ABS, no traction control, no ESP. You were on your own, fine for me, not for the wife. They did offer it in later years but it was a challenge since the car can't read gear or cut throttle as easily in an automatic. The automatics are very capable offroad in regards to keeping traction on the wheels and the ability to actually power them all vs. some other systems (Honda's for instance)

I own another Subaru and if AWD is important to you in that it WORKS then they as well as Audi/VW/Volvo should be on your short list. The good part about Subaru vs. others is that the driveshafts are fairly equal in length so all wheels usually get the torque equally.

 

[Windex]

The good part about owning the turbo powered 2.5 you are must likely immune to the HG problems. You tend to have other things to worry about but at least pulling the engine isn't one of them.

The other good part about the turbo 2.5 is that with a couple of pipes and an accesport, it'll go like hell and beat mustangs, all in a stealth wagon.

Don't expect fuel economy though - I miss my 2005 legacy GT except for the amount of premium at quaffed.

 

[truman]

Why is the turbo more immune to HG failure? I've read this before, but am not aware of the reason for the difference.

 

[Windex]

The turbo blocks had more reinforcement to keep the cylinder liners from expanding and blowing the gasket. See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZbPlHnistA&feature=endscreen&NR=1

do a search on closed deck and open deck.

 

[Antsrcool]

I do probably 15 head gaskets a year on the 2.5 2001 to 2006. It's super easy. These engines come out and in in no time. I can have one out and redone in about 6 hours. It's so frequent I keep a set of heads already planed and services at all times.

 

[kennethsime]

I do probably 15 head gaskets a year on the 2.5 2001 to 2006. It's super easy. These engines come out and in in no time. I can have one out and redone in about 6 hours. It's so frequent I keep a set of heads already planed and services at all times.

But is that a 6-hour job at $100/hour a la volvo/mercedes/bmw, or a 6-hour job at $50/hour a la vw?

 

[davebugs]

But is that a 6-hour job at $100/hour a la volvo/mercedes/bmw, or a 6-hour job at $50/hour a la vw?

I work alone, but do have a lift. It basically takes me a day at my own pace.

If a fella were trying to rush 6-8 hours is probable. I do an engine reseal, and idlers and WP, plugs while I'm at it.

Actually usually I drain coolant 9ish, have engine out and heads off by noon. Drop the radiator at the radiator shop to get the crap out of it on the way th have the heads cleaned/checked/shaved. Next day lunchtime I go pick it all up. Reassemble and install about the time I'm hungry again - 5 or 6.

I've done WAY more 2.5 DOHC's than the newer ones.

But it is seriousely an easy engine to pull. Some folks try and do it in the car - and it can be done. But I think it takes more work and you can't do as good of a job with things like block prep.

Make sure you get the latest OEM HG's or you'll likely get to do it again. And add the Subaru "conditioner".

 

[Antsrcool]

i do them at 50 an hour but i charge shop time which is around 15 hours