Stronger clutch than VR6/G60 combo?

andreigbs

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Sep 27, 2004
Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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Is this available even? I know most of the modded guys are running this ever-popular setup, but what if I want to upgrade my stock clutch to hold more than 300 lbs. in the future? What are my options?

I was thinking to eventually add:
- KP-39 stealth hybrid turbo from Kerma
- Bigger SMIC or go with custom FMIC
- RC3 or 4
- PD170 complete intake w/snorkle
- 2.5" SS full exhaust from LurkerMike
- Peloquin LSD
- .658 5th gearset

So would a stock VR6/G60 combo hold up well or would anyone recommend anything beefier? What about you PDers that are highly modified; what clutch package do you use? Drivability vs. stock? Comfort? Any issues? TIA.
 

BleachedBora

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'81 DMC-12, '12 Audi TT 418 hp/383 tq, '08 GL320 CDI 275 hp/448 wtq - '81 Caddy ALH, '04 Golf BEW 2" Lift, '85 HMMWV
DD kits have been very popular, and they feel very close to stock. Let me know if I can help you out :).
Cheers,
-BB
 

BleachedBora

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There is only one DD kit at the moment that I usually deal with, which is good for 400+ torque, has standard weight single mass flywheel (or lightweight), and comes complete with disc, pressure plate, flywheel, throwout bearing, tranny stretch bolt kit, and the 6 pressure plate/flywheel bolts. Cost is listed on my site....
Cheers!
-BB
 

LNXGUY

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Jan 10, 2004
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Barrie, Ont, Canada
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'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
My Spec Stg II running the stock DMF is rated at 385ftlbs :)

Stock feel and lots of holding power, can't complain about that.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
A G60/VR6 combo may well hold with the mods you're planning. BlueCTTDi's car with a (somewhat) similar setup is making 160/273 at the wheels. That's within the limits of the G60/VR6 setup.

If you want to go further I've started carrying clutches from South Bend Clutch. They've been making modified clutches for years, and have a great reputation in the Audi and Cummins communities. I recenly put in their stage 3 clutch with the Sachs DMF that came in my '02 wagon. It's rated to hold 380 ft/lbs. or so, and it is holding fine with a 17/22 hybrid turbo, RC5, 11mm pump, PP520s, etc. I'm probably making about 300 ft./lbs at the wheels, no problem with the clutch. Drives like stock except for a slightly heavier pedal. Engagement feels like stock and the clutch is quiet.

If you want to switch to a SMF their Stage 1 is rated for 330 ft/lbs. and the Stage 3 is rated for 425. And I'm offering both stock weight and lightened flywheels with these clutches.

If you plan on running larger nozzles that's where you'll probably get to the G60/VR6 limits. Or if you go to a turbo with a larger housing, that may drive you over the edge. That's a nice problem to have. :D
 

andreigbs

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Sep 27, 2004
Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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I definitely like what LNXGUY is running, sounds like a compromise between great clamping power and stock drivability. What would that setup cost btw?

I also like what TDIParts offers, and it's hard to choose just ONCE and hope to get it right, and at the right price. This is where research comes in, I know. I want to be able to hold more than 300 lbs. in the future, with just one clutch upgrade. We all know the clutch is the weakest link in the power chain, once that gets upgraded everything else can move up.

I've heard good things about South Bend clutches, over on AudiForums, so I was keeping those in mind.

I don't want extra noise whatsoever or harsh engagement. I don't mind a little heavier pedal, just no grabbing or jerking feeling. I also don't want to have to replace it again in 100k miles. I don't auto-x, don't take off spinning the wheels, i try to extend the clutch's life by revv-matching and it hurts (financially) that at 70K miles I'm already planning to replace the stock clutch. I can baby it a long time, sure, but then I can't take advantage of all the torque this car has in the lower rpms.

So far, I'm leaning on the upgraded VR6/G60 combo or the SBC stg. 1 kit with the stock weight flywheel. Remember, I'm also wanting to put in a LSD and taller 5th while I'm in there. Did I mention I'm willing to travel to have a guru install all of these? I haven't been to the Northeast in a while...
 

Ed's TDI

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Jan 30, 2001
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Victoria, BC, Canada
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'01 Bora and '97 A4 1.8T Quattro (future TDI conversion maybe?)
I'll throw in my 2 cents worth here. I installed a Spec stage 2 clutch a few years ago when I started to go a bit "power hungry" with the Bora. I decided, after reading about the chatter/vibration experienced by members with the VR6/G60 setup, to maintain the stock DMF which is why I went with Spec.

After driving it (hard!) and seeing it hold a lot of power and not give up an inch of driveability, I decided to install the same clutch in my Wagon once I started to do some minor power upgrades. Once again, I'm very satisfied with the stock feel and day-to-day driveability. I've let a few people drive the Wagon to get an idea of the feel of the clutch and they have all agreed that it feels as good as, or better, than stock.

That said, I've also heard good things about the South Bend clutches.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I haven't driven a SPEC stage 2, but I have driven the 2+ and although it's reasonably smooth it does engage quickly. Not a huge deal, but noticeable.

If you're determined to have the clutch last well over 100K I think it's a good idea to switch to a SMF. If you drive the car hard or on the track the DMF may not give you as much life as a SMF would. I'm going to put a SMF in my track day Golf for that reason. We have 17 lb. and stock weight SMF flywheels that will work with the South Bend Stage 3 clutches.

Another thought: If you're putting in a limited slip you might want to go with a taller ring-and-pinion instead of the taller 5th. That way all the gears will be taller, you don't have to drill the diff and the final drive apart, and you can sell the final drive and diff as a unit. I'm going that way on my Golf. And Chris Hill (mrchill) at Kraftwerke in MA is doing the work if you want to make a trip up north.
 

johnnloki

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Jan 24, 2007
Location
bowmanville ON
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04 Golf TDI
IndigoBlueWagon said:
Another thought: If you're putting in a limited slip you might want to go with a taller ring-and-pinion instead of the taller 5th. That way all the gears will be taller, you don't have to drill the diff and the final drive apart, and you can sell the final drive and diff as a unit. I'm going that way on my Golf. And Chris Hill (mrchill) at Kraftwerke in MA is doing the work if you want to make a trip up north.
Works well for a track car- if you're someone who's trying to build a quarter mile TDI, then you'll want the stock final drive with the stock 4th gear- you're closer to the end of the rev range with that setup (100mph redline vs 110mph redline: too tall for the quarter). If you're rebuilding a tranny anyway, buy an ASD tranny from Aaron, and pick and choose your gearsets between the two of them, and get 'em cryotreated like the southbend guys can do with their clutches (... and are willing to do for other parts, too...). If you're going to the trouble of getting an LSD, then to me it makes sense to spend a bit more and make your perfect transmission.
 

andreigbs

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Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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See, now I like Ed's idea along with LNXGUY: keep the stock DMF and just use a stronger disc.

Where from and for how much could I get a taller ring-and-pinion and how hard (read costly) is the install? I'm really on the fence about SMF vs. DMF and it's going to be a hard decision, keep in mind I really don't want to sacrifice anything in the comfort and ease dept. (call me lazy) plus, my better half drives the car most of the time so it needs to stay civilized.

When you say engages quickly, what exactly does that mean? Does it grab all of a sudden, do you have to raise the rpms just to take off or risk stalling it? Please describe it a little bit more if you could.

Thanks guys, the suggestion and opinion are highly regarded and much appreciated. Keep them coming!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
johnloki, I'm building the Golf for road courses, and 110 in 4th is precisely what I'm looking for. On a number of tracks I get to the top of 4th on the straights, and 3rd isn't as useable as I'd like: I often run to 5200 in 3rd simply to avoid shifing before braking for the next turn. So a taller R&P would really help.

And regarding quick engagement, I'm talking about the SPEC Stage 2+ which I think has more kevlar than the 2. So go by Dave and others' impressions, not mine.
 

johnnloki

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Jan 24, 2007
Location
bowmanville ON
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04 Golf TDI
andreigbs said:
See, now I like Ed's idea along with LNXGUY: keep the stock DMF and just use a stronger disc.

Where from and for how much could I get a taller ring-and-pinion and how hard (read costly) is the install? I'm really on the fence about SMF vs. DMF and it's going to be a hard decision, keep in mind I really don't want to sacrifice anything in the comfort and ease dept. (call me lazy) plus, my better half drives the car most of the time so it needs to stay civilized.

When you say engages quickly, what exactly does that mean? Does it grab all of a sudden, do you have to raise the rpms just to take off or risk stalling it? Please describe it a little bit more if you could.

Thanks guys, the suggestion and opinion are highly regarded and much appreciated. Keep them coming!
It's possible to find a used tranny with the taller r&p, but it's a crapshoot buying used transmission parts. An impercievable 'fracture' is a far more realistic possibility with a(n ab)used part, and there's not really too many ways to know.

As I understand it (and I sure ain't no expert), clutch engagement without stalling is a function of torque vs. actual ratio of gear. If you're careful enough, you can get yourself going pretty easily in even third gear without using your right foot thanks to the torque.

edit: And while I know there are people who love their Spec+ DMF combos, the DMF can really only take so much abuse, and if your flywheel breaks apart while running at speed, really really really bad things can happen. Just a thought. I agree with you, that doing the right clutch the right way the one time is the best idea.

IndigoBlueWagon said:
johnloki, I'm building the Golf for road courses, and 110 in 4th is precisely what I'm looking for. On a number of tracks I get to the top of 4th on the straights, and 3rd isn't as useable as I'd like: I often run to 5200 in 3rd simply to avoid shifing before braking for the next turn. So a taller R&P would really help.

And regarding quick engagement, I'm talking about the SPEC Stage 2+ which I think has more kevlar than the 2. So go by Dave and others' impressions, not mine.
I'm well aware of your toy's purpose, Indy, it's just when someone starts talking Diffs, I usually think more about the quarter than about the track (not that the diff ain't useful on the track, it's just one of those few 'big gainers' for the 1/4). I remember you saying (quite) a while back about having a track day at Mosport (no matter what I do to my car, I'm sure I'd sit around the bottom of the result list for the days event, but I'd love to try it anyway), and I've read about quite a few of your Miata chasing escapades. Some people care more about the stop light to stoplight representative quarter mile race than the winding open road style of racing (i.e. racing in a manner that better represents actual driving circumstances)... you're not one of those people, and neither am I, but our friends in Vansterdam appear to be. The R&P stuff was just a heads up for others reading, rather than you specifically.

(BTW, ever notice how in the ASD transmission there's only a 17 MPH difference at red between 3 and 4... *** were they thinking on that one? The taller first and second gears in one package with the taller R&P makes buying the tranny outright, and rebuilding it with components of your NA tranny a good purchase... if you're into going that far, that is.)
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I'm not up to building a transmission yet--hoping to maximize the gearing in the 02J we have, keeping in mind that I still need a tall 5th to get to and from the track. I'm determined not to become someone who tows his car to the track. If I end up going that route I want an Exige or something like that, and I'll use the Golf as a tow vehicle. With the exception of the R&P and Quaife, this seaon's focus is on suspension. I'll deal with making more power and gearing in '09, most likely.
 

johnnloki

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Jan 24, 2007
Location
bowmanville ON
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04 Golf TDI
Just took a trip around tdiparts... you got a secret hard line to my wish list or something, peter? There's the 3.16 R&P right there... the FSDs... The 5.5L washer tank... The Funk switch... all those odd things that I think nearly nobody wants, but I do (story of my life), you seem to carry 'em...

Damn Clairvoyants heheh.

(okay, still no taller first and second gear combos, no water methanol injection kits, no neuspeed softsports for the fsds, no PD injectors yet... you're not in league with major league baseball and their program to spy on me, that other stuff is just coincidence)

heheh
 
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andreigbs

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OK guys, I don't want to get too off-point about this so for the sake of brevity I think we can rule out rebuilding trannies and so forth. What I didn't know is that it would be necessary to drill something as part of an LSD install? Did I read that right? I thought it was PnP, as is the 5th gear.

What I'm looking for is to really increase traction (LSD), clutch holding power and quieter engine at highway cruising, which I do a LOT of, mostly around 80 mph here in ATL. I'm not going to go tearing into the tranny to cryo-treat anything, at best just replace to stock fluid which is needed soon anyway.

So far I think I like the DD kits for drivability and the upgraded SMF VR6/G60 kits for lifetime troublefree operation and the peace of mind knowing I dont have a DMF that'll self-destruct. SBC is looking pretty good at this point, along with a couple other kits that TDIParts stocks. BleachedBora is also working on a deal for me with these two combos in mind, so I'll have to wait and see.
 

BleachedBora

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I added taller R&Ps early last week on the Boraparts site for those that want them... ;)
I still think that ease wise a taller 5th is a lot better route than the R&P. And LSDs are not a DIY job, you need to find someone who knows what they are doing....
-BB
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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To upgrade the R&P you have to remove the transmission and open the case. The ring & pinion and the diff are riveted together so you have to drill them apart. I understand it's pretty difficult. A local shop here (Shine Racing) says the entire job takes about 10 hours of labor. By contrast, a 5th gear install takes about 2 hours.

If you're replacing the clutch of course you're going to have the transmission out anyway, which is probably half of the 10 hours. If you're going for an LSD clutch replacement time is when you should do it. I'm doing them together on my Golf.
 

TDI_Convert

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
To upgrade the R&P you have to remove the transmission and open the case. The ring & pinion and the diff are riveted together so you have to drill them apart. I understand it's pretty difficult. A local shop here (Shine Racing) says the entire job takes about 10 hours of labor. By contrast, a 5th gear install takes about 2 hours.

If you're replacing the clutch of course you're going to have the transmission out anyway, which is probably half of the 10 hours. If you're going for an LSD clutch replacement time is when you should do it. I'm doing them together on my Golf.
They are pretty much right on with the time, although if you've done it before you probably could knock off a bit of time. It helps to have a 2-post lift and transmission jack. The rivets aren't hard to drill, you just need brand new drill bits, use cutting fluid and spin them at the correct rpm's. Give it a good cleaning before re-installing and you are good to go.
I drilled pilot holes first to ensure that the correct sized drill bits were centered in the rivets and I didn't drill the carrier. Just drill enough of the rivet to be able to punch out the rest of it - there is no need to drill out the whole rivet.
 

hutchman

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I'd like to know more about this R&P upgrade. I know what Quaife does. Is R&P a similar thing? I have a mean wheel hop and I'm wondering if this will tame it.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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R&P is changing the final drive gears so that the engine turns slower (~7% from the stock 3.39 to the popular 3.16) for any given vehicle speed. I'm pretty sure it does not have anything to do with helping wheel hop.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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hutchman said:
I'd like to know more about this R&P upgrade. I know what Quaife does. Is R&P a similar thing? I have a mean wheel hop and I'm wondering if this will tame it.
Wheel hop is best addressed by suspension upgrades. My Golf with Koni Yellows and Shine springs has no wheel hop, even with slicks on it.
 
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