Strange issue with Passat front fenders

tdiblair

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2005 Passat Wagon.
One of the front fenders rusted though in a small spot.

Yes, I gave them notice of the 12 year rust warranty and they have been hot of the case for since January 6th, so over a 1/4 of a year to get into action.

One of the issues is I believe when I bought the 2005 Passats - that they were galvanized panels? Am I wrong?

VWNA looked this up and the girl says, " I don't think they were and the fender you are getting - although a VW fender - it is not galvanized.

Now the car may be 7 years old but only has 60,000 miles on it. I was amazed about the rust spot. The dealer tells me he believes it was caused by a foam liner used in the Passat diesels to deaden the sound from the engine. That this foam liner is in the underside of the fender and these liners were know to cause rust.

1)Have any of you experienced this ?
2)Anyone remember if Passats came with galvanized panels or is my memory shot to hell? If they were galvanized - I would want the replacement to be galvanized too.
3) Any modification on this sound deadening liner inside the fender - does this even sound true?

Blair
 

Mikey2

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To my recollection, front fenders are the only bolted parts which are galvanized.

All the other bolted parts (doors, hood, trunk lid) are not galvanised.
 

tdiblair

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Mikey2 writes"
To my recollection, front fenders are the only bolted parts which are galvanized.
All the other bolted parts (doors, hood, trunk lid) are not galvanised.

Well, for some reason I remember literature stating all panels were galvanized. Just trying to confirm with other members to see if anyone filed that sales brochure anywhere stating my claim so I can present it to VWNA. Regardless, the one thing I'm not happy about is VWNA is saying the new fenders are not galvanized. They are not away of any panel being galvanized but they sound confused and took over a week to look into it. I just remember it being a " selling point" for me since my Chevy Truck - no 14 years old, is galvanized and shows zero rust. It would seem to me that under a 12 year warranty that VW would be obligated to replace the fender with what was originally in the car. Then again, they may feel they only have to get me to the 12 year mark without a rust out. Regardless, if the dealer is correct, it seems the sound deadening foam panel to isolate engine noise might be a contributing factor in the rust. Don't know if any other members experienced this. Keep in mind, this car only has 60K on it. Maybe just one bad fender or a loose sound deadening panel that came lose and vibrated though the galvanized coating over time. The rust spot is only the size of a dime. I see no signs of rust anywhere else.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
A coworker's 2000 Silverado has giant rust holes in its fenders, and the lower part of the cab is also starting to go, very typical of them around here. He was able to hide the fenders with fender flares :p So I'm not sure I see what you mean about GM's claim.

The Golf/Jetta have a TSB about fender rust due to the foam, the Passats have no such TSB yet they sometimes do the exact same thing.

I just trimmed the foam away, and sprayed more undercoating under there when the car was new, so no worries for me.

BTW, mileage has no bearing on rust... if anything, cars that sit a lot rust MORE.
 

aja8888

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I seriously doubt that the fender is galvanized prior to painting as it would have to have been hot dipped and the whole fender (outside and inside surfaces) would be zinc coated. Zinc is what is used to galvanize metal. Finishing a galvanized panel would require a different method and materials than the rest of the car, except fore the top coats, I would imagine.

My gut feeling is that the fenders are steel and primed before painting. The foam is the problem here as it would hold moisture (salty stuff too) and eventually rust from the inside out.
 

passat05wagon

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2005 Passat SW
I had the left front fender on my 05 Passat changed earlier this year. A friend of mind is currently working with the dealer on his fender. The dealer informed me that they have changed about 6 this past December to January.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Both the front fenders on our 2005 Passat were changed under warranty, as was the trunk lid due to rust around the license plate light. Next week the two front doors are being replaced under warranty as well.
 

Mikey2

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I have a printed version of Self Study Programme 191: The Passat '97.

On page 11 there is an image of the Passat's body showing which parts are galvanised and how (hot-dip or electrolytically). Front fenders are electrolytically galvanised, and no doors nor the hood nor the trunk lid is shown in the picture.

It is also stated that: "Surface patterns, which are also visible after painting, emerge during the hot-dip galvanisation process. That is why the outer skin of the body is electrolytically galvanised to produce a smooth finish."

Here's a link to a version in German, see page 11: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_191.PDF
 
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thundershorts

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I've seen cars from areas where brine is used on the roads and the pitting seem worse than areas where other forms of salt are used.
 

tdiblair

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Well VWNA got back to me on what they are willing to do on the front fender.
1) the woman ' thinks' the fenders are not galvanized. They have no immediate knowledge on their car other than - I will be getting a VW fender and it's not - repeat - not galvanized. " we don't think they are galvanized." Never a clear yes or now - just a ' think.' They just don't know and they are VWNA. Like the B-5.5 Passat is a relic with no details.

2) I ask if they are going to do a ' blend coat' to the adjacent panel on the car. So, will my new fender and it's now paint be blended to the door panel right next to it? This is done my almost all body shops. It gives the illusion or tricks the eye into thinking the new paint matches the old paint on the panel next to the repair. A fairly simple 3 stage trick you do with the base coat (BC) . BC is the coating of paint that give your car it's color and metallic flake - and yes there is BC that is not metallic. The Clear Coat (CC) is the clear coating that protects your BC. Even our mag wheels - that mag wheel you are looking is actually a aluminum colored BC and then coated in CC. Very realistic paint. When you go to the body shop and hand him your particulars car's BC code - the can he hands you is very close to the original paint - but you will notice it's not an exact match. This is where the ' blend coat' to the adjacent panel with the original paint is necessary to "trick" your eye into thinking the new paint matches the old paint. It worked when I did my 98 Cheby truck myself on a small repair, but the Chevy it is a dark metallic blue. That particular color is very forgiving when it comes to color matching. Reflex Silver would be hard to match and blend coat saves your butt with this lighter shade that seems to magnify a miss matched repair.
Changing air pressure to the spray gun will change a metallic paints appearance. 10 different shops might use different pressures to their guns - or different nozzles or air caps. One shop will use a SATA gun - another will go with an Iwata made gun. A perfect match to the factory paint is about 1 in a 1000. Our bumpers are also BC / CC, but they get a flex agent on the bumpers. That flex agent, added to the paint , shifts the color again from the fender which has no flex agent in the paint. So the automotive industry came up with a way to blend new paint into old paint to trick your eye into a match between the original factory paint on the door and the new paint on my new fender. All the above - this did not sway VWNA.

VWNA refused to pay for the extra hour to do a ' blend coat' to the adjacent panel.
So they are fine with just spraying my fender with the new paint - and leaving it right next to a door with the original paint - no blend coat to hide the difference - you just pull away with whatever you get.

This is done by a body shop of the dealer's choice.

I'm just wondering if the rest of you guys who had this done got the same and if your new fender matched the adjacent panel. My hope is the woman at VWNA has no clue about a blend coat and doesn't want to commit to it. I personally can't imagine a body shop not doing a blend coat so I can only live in hope that the woman is going to keeps saying ' no blend coat' without consulting or even contacting the body shop.

So how did your VW re-paints look under warranty. Paint match or miss- match and should I have the foam liner not installed?



Blair
 

aja8888

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Blair

You are right on about blending into the door. My rear quarter was hit on my Passat and the shop that fixed it insisted on a blend into the rear door to aid with the color match. Maybe you can find out which shop will do the work and go see them about the blend? I can't believe a decent body shop would be in favor of just painting the fender with out a color blend into the door. That's not acceptable practice these days.

Ditch the fender foam piece. Spray the back of the fender with undercoat.

Tony
 

tdiblair

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Tough Tony,

First time I head about this foam piece was 2 weeks ago. VWAG knows nothing about it causing rust. The dealer tipped me off. No suggestion on their part to leave it out. What would VW owners do without VWNA? I'm assuming the foam is in the fenders to absorb engine sound? Dunno how that reduces sound back to the passenger compartment? More foam at the firewall makes more sense - seems like it only reduces sound to those standing outside the car, near the fenders. Perhaps a VW Save the chip monks campaign? I think I will do just that and ask them to leave the foam sound deadener out.

Did you ever get your replacement car to the Passat - The Kia? Is your Passat with the daughter and still going and if so how many miles and did the tranny T.C. go on it yet?

Blair
 

PlaneCrazy

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I have to say they did an excellent job on ours, colour appears to be a perfect match. As we speak our two front doors are being replaced under warranty due to corrosion. We'll see how that goes...
 

tdiblair

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PlaneCrazy, my only hope is the woman at VWNA is just attempting to commit to as little as possible and assumes a blend coat is a big $ item. She doesn't know what a blend coat is. I know it adds 1 hour to the job at most having done them myself on the Cheby. No one there has bothered to call the body shop. Each dealer is a franchise in the U.S. - she says. If that is the case, I assume VWNAs contract with each franchise has limited control in these manners or attention. VWNA is only paying $700 for a fender and paint job. The actual fender is around $230 uninstalled. My quote from local body shop is $882 with Tax. I will have to assume the guy who ends up spraying mine is not dumb enough to attempt a match without a blend coat - but if you care - VWNA refuses to commit to that and refuses to say if the fender is galvanized in any manner. They say nothing about the foam in the fender causing any issues - it's not even mentioned.

Remember the issues we have with the sun roof drains clogging? I know mine were an issue on 3 diesels ( my 2 and my brother's) Dealer said he cut all four traps at the end of each sun roof drain. You may have been told the same? One the easy ones to get to - at the front doors..yes they were cut and easy to see. The rear drains which are hidden under the rear bumper - they were never cut. I only found out because I had a bumpers replace on one my Passats and my brother's. Both rear drains never touched and clogged.

I asked VWNA if there was a recall on these sun roof drains since all 3 of my family's 2004 - 2005 Passats had this issue. VWNA looked it up and says those years were never part of a recall, that there was no issue with the sun roof drains. I must have a wild imagination.

Blair
 

tdiblair

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I assume the SB in (TSB) stands for Service Bulletin but what does the T stand for?

Also if it is a TSB is the dealer suppose to cut all the drains?

Blair
 

aja8888

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I assume the SB in (TSB) stands for Service Bulletin but what does the T stand for?

Also if it is a TSB is the dealer suppose to cut all the drains?

Blair
Blair:

T stands for "Technical". (Where did you get this "Tough Tony"?):D

I replaced the Passat wagon when the TC went out. Sold it to a fellow in Wisconsin. He wanted a rust free body. I put 90K miles on it. Shortly after I sold it to him, the transmission failed. The car had ~140K on it at that time.

My daughter got spooked and sold her Passat for a great price and bought a 2010 Ford Fusion, which she loves. Starts, goes, has a great sound system and is easy on the purse.

We got my wife a 2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (4 cylinder SUV). I picked up a pretty nice 2005.5 Jetta Package 1 TDI with DSG transmission and low miles. So the women have nice, friendly gasoline cars with nice radios and I have the old, noisy TDI. :rolleyes:

Other than that, things are fine. I was in CT last Fall when my youngest sister passed away. Where did all the industry go?:confused:
 

tdiblair

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Where did I get Tough Tony from? In my town there was a Saab mechanic, here for decades, called Tony. Looked like a bull dog and always walked around with a cigar hanging from the corner of his mouth. Often not lit. My brother re-named him Tough Tony - seemed to stick and fit. From then on anyone called Tony I rename Tough Tony. It just works for me.

I dunno if you remember, but for years I supplied the diesel to VW's plant in PA. When that closed and they moved it to Mexico- I continued the deliveries to the Mexican boarder - but recently told them to find a more local supplier. They just liked the fact that they never had an issue with the diesel they got from us. The told us when the car leaves the assembly plant they wanted some gallons it in so it would make it up and down the car carrier ramps and around the dealers parking lot. They said we don't know if the car will be in hot sunny Florida or Alaska- but the fuel you sell us better not cause a starting failure in a new car lot. We did the same for Chrysler too - but with gasoline. Chrysler would put 3.4 gallons into each car of a certain size. Don't ax me who came up with the 3.4

As to where the industry has gone. It's still here but some of these companies are banks in the oil industry and large speculative trading houses. So in Westport CT we have or had Phibro Energy( big speculative trader , in Wilton Dreyfus Energy. Those two might have recently moved. Next Sun Refining sold their Phili PA refinery. I just bought some Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel out of their Girard Point Plant into a pipeline today. Often the contract comes over as J.P. Morgan Ventures as it did today. No clue but I think J.P.Morgan finances the new owners of Sun's refinery down in PA. This branch of J.P. Morgan is in Stamford CT. Next a big outfit called Noble Americas is in Stamford CT too. I think their main office is in Hong Kong, but the industry does a lot of buying and selling with them. Premcore (sp?) was another company with a refinery. They had offices in Greenwich CT, but they sold out and are gone. So I would say some have left and some new names have come in.

by the way, you recall what a Torque Convert repair job roughly costs and have you found any hidden issues in your new VW like we found in the Passats?

Blair
 

aja8888

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Blair:

Tough Tony works for me as I have been called "The General" from time to time.:D

I grew up in the Naugatuck Valley and worked in the copper and brass business after college. All the primary metals and metal working businesses are gone from Thomaston on down the river (Waterbury, Watertown, Naugatuck, Ansonia, Derby, Seymour, Bridgeport, etc). It's a shame, lots of jobs lost. I have been in oil and gas now for 30 years and have worked (as a consultant) for some of the firms you mention. Still work for one or two.

The Passat TC job, if you use a VW TC unit, is about $1800. If you have your core rebuilt by Eriksson in CT, the rebuilt unit is ~$400 and the R&R labor around $900.

Hidden issues with the Jetta? Naw, just known ones but the seller had them fixed before I bought the car (Dual Mass Flywheel (DMF) fails, camshaft issues (new one with complete TB job). The 05.5 and 6 Jettas were the newer, refined model, but the one just before the ones with the High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) disaster (09 on up). No TDI Jetta's in 2007-08 in the US.

Tony
 
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leicaman

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Our friends at VWoA replaced my driver's side fender on my 05 when it started to rust. They also pulled that foam junk out of the other fender.
 

tdiblair

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Leicaman,

Called the dealer just now. Bringing it in next Tuesday. He will attempt to keep the foam out of the fender, but 'thinks' there is a chance the fender comes with the foam glued on and might be tough to get off. I know you were probably not there when they did your fender. Just wondering if you remember any comments as to if that foam piece was a ***** to get off the fender or not.

Blair
 

tdiblair

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Blair:

Tough Tony works for me as I have been called "The General" from time to time.:D


Tony" I grew up in the Naugatuck Valley and worked in the copper and brass business after college."

I'm with you there - the inlaws had a Nauga-hide covered sofa and you know where Naugahide was made.


Tony" All the primary metals and metal working businesses are gone from Thomaston on down the river (Waterbury, Watertown, Naugatuck, Ansonia, Derby, Seymour, Bridgeport, etc)."

Tough Tony, from the Merritt Parkway I still see some big plant - deserted for decades- Think the sign says 'Silver Exchange." Can barely read the fading paint. The further north I travel and look at the towns, the more I travel back to the 1950 and 1920's. Lucked out once and they let me into that military base where they build the F 4U Corsair fighter plane we used back in WWII. It's abandoned except for a museum they have their restoring old planes and fighter jets. I stood in one part of the factory that is one million square feet. One giant open room or hanger. That would be 1/4 of a mile from one wall to the next . Huge empty room with a ceiling that was perhaps 4 stores high. This was the final place where they would line up about 66 Corsairs after assembly (wings folded up) to fit in the room and then wings down for the planes in the very front of the line as they flew the new planes out over the water when they left the factory and to their destination. I had to be escorted though the place. I said to the guide, "I can't believe it but this giant million square feet room feels like it's 70F in this abandoned factory- did you heat up the million square feet just for me because there is no one else here?" "Oh no, he said! We have been unable to shut the heat - we have been heating this hanger and other buildings on this complex since we shut it down back after WWII."

There was a municipal airport next door that uses the same steam lines for heat and as the old Corsair fighter plane factory. No....they can't dig into the ground to put a giant Y connection in to shut off the old factory and allow the steam to go just to the municipal airport next door. They both share the same main steam line. Why you ax? Well they use to dump PCB's on the ground back in that era when they built the WWII fighter plane. Those PCB they would just dump on the ground have soaked down into the ground. If they dig or disturb the gournd - the EPA will force them into unknown millions for some super clean up. I'd say taking all the buildings in total, I'm guessing about 4 or 5 million square feet have been heated for a few guys left to secure the abandoned base and it will probably bee done for many more decades.

There were giant 18 cylinder radial Corsair engines left on the floor there and some Corsairs in bad repair, abandoned on the floor. Never knew how big they were. I needed a ladder just to reach the cockpit to take a look inside.



Tony " The Passat TC job, if you use a VW TC unit, is about $1800. If you have your core rebuilt by Eriksson in CT, the rebuilt unit is ~$400 and the R&R labor around $900. "

I actually met Wally Eriksson, many years ago, when he worked for Saab in Orange CT. They kept the name, but new people took over Eriksson.
Any clue on how well their T.C. rebuild holds up. Wow, does a VW new T.C. really cost $1800?



Tony " Hidden issues with the Jetta? Naw, just known ones but the seller had them fixed before I bought the car (Dual Mass Flywheel (DMF) fails, camshaft issues (new one with complete TB job). The 05.5 and 6 Jettas were the newer, refined model, but the one just before the ones with the High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) disaster (09 on up). No TDI Jetta's in 2007-08 in the US."

Did VW ever dump that HPFP and if so what year? I assume that's the pump that took out the whole engine when it blew.
 

aja8888

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Blair:

I would guess that old Corsair plant was near the coast, maybe by Electric Boat where they made the Nuclear subs? I was a Naugatuck Valley guy all my time in CT, except when I built a house in Southbury. Groton area comes to mind for those military plants.

The VW TC is about $900 to purchase and $900 to install (labor). According to member Thundershorts here, the Eriksson rebuilds are very good, but I have no personal experience with them.

The 2005.5 Jetta I bought does not have a HPFP in it. It's the last of the PD engines thru 2006, just like yours in the Passat except the PD in the Passat has a bigger piston to make more HP.

The HPFP (common rail injection) engines are in 2009 on up. When the pump blows, the whole fuel system gets loaded with small metal fragments. VW is still covering the damage on those, which can cost around $8000.00 per incident. The HPFP is still in use, but may have been upgraded to minimize events.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Back onto the issue of rust, we got our car back last night after the two front doors were replaced. Paint job looks like an excellent match. Two new front doors, two new front fenders, new rear trunk lid, over the past 18 months. Just need a new hood and two back doors and we practically have a new car :D

I did notice that the transmission shifts fairly harshly now (I haven't driven it in a while, my son uses it mostly now). I'm thinking about a manual transmission swap. After all the car "only" has 254,000 km on it... should be good for at least 250 more with some TLC!
 

tdiblair

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Plane Crazy,

wow, that's a lot of panels to go on a 8 year old car, but I see your from Canada. I have to assume you drive on salted roads for almost half the year and doing all highway driving to have that many miles on the automatic tranny?
 
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