Stop solenoid testing

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Connect 12v, hear it click and it's good. That's always been my troubleshooting procedure. Anyone had one click that that turned out bad?

My car wouldn't start last night, after a 14.5 hour work day.... good stuff. I was low on fuel, and parked on an incline, so I blamed it being the fuel was too far from the pick up. It's happened before...

Call AAA get it towed home, and find the filter and pump are full of fuel. Loosen the nuts at the injectors, crank, and no fuel. I'm watching fuel cycle through the clear feed line.

Jump 12v to the solenoid, hear click, crank starter, same thing. Absolutely no smoke at the tailpipe.

Brings me back to the original question. Thoughts? Thanks.

-Todd
 

greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
Can you remove the plunger on the solenoid and re-install to see if the car will run?

Not sure if the ignition would still shut the car off or if you'd have to stall it.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
If I pull the plunger, I'll need to stall the car out.

I think it's likely the same stop solenoid as used on all the earlier IDI stuff. I have a few spare pumps, so I'll swap it.

The pump is a rebuild from Bora Parts, installed less than 4 months ago. I'm hoping it's just the solenoid. If the pump is pumping (which it is) my only roadblock would be the solenoid preventing flow to the injectors.

-Todd
 

SkyRyder55

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI, 1990 Corrado G60 (AHU soon)
I just went through this. my solenoid clicked and was fine. but still no fuel to injectors. the other 7 pin connector off of the injector pump had a bunch of damaged wires where that harness feeds into the main engine harness. peel back some electrical tape and have a peek.
The shutoff solenoid is not the only thing that stops fuel flow on these injection pumps.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Interesting. I'll have to take a look.

I'd think that the fuel would still pump, although the calibration would be off...

Thanks

-Todd
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
The primary cutoff on TDI's is the ECU setting the IQ to zero. The solenoid is redundant, left over from the mechanical pump.

When you turn the key on there should be a loud click of the QA going full or near full. After a few seconds it clicks again as it returns to low setting.

These are louder than the solenoid and the initial one would be at about the same time as the solenoid. You hearing them?
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I'm unsure. I was in the car cranking... I'll have to listen for it. I scanned the car, last night.

From what I was reading, you'll get the G28 code if the car is not running, or if it's bad. The other multiple codes could be telling me that there's a compromised wire(s).

-Todd


6 Faults Found:

00513 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
*********** 27-00 - Implausible Signal
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
*********** 27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01266 - Glow Plug Relay (J52)
*********** 31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00626 - Glow Plug Indicator Light (K29)
*********** 31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00750 - Warning Lamp
*********** 31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30*
*********** 27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
 

greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
I know that water in the ECU case on A3's can cause multiple codes and odd behavior, not sure if that applies to the B4s but I think the ECU is in the same water prone area below the windshield correct?
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Same ECU is in the same location, but it's tucked under there pretty well. There's also the plastic cowl that should prevent water from dripping on it and it's also elevated on a small platform. Is this the "module" that I read the Ross-tech wiki referring to?

It also wasn't raining last night when the issue surfaced.

-Todd
 

greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
The car in that had this issue was leakage over time, not after a heavy rain, just a thought I figured I'd throw out there.

That car would run great, then miss, sputter, etc until you opened the hood and slammed it shut....engine would smooth right out. All kinds of codes were thrown. Finally after pulling the ECU the case had a bit of water or condensation, enough to corrode the contacts on the circuit board. Cleaning it up fixed the problem.
 

greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
I'm unsure. I was in the car cranking... I'll have to listen for it. I scanned the car, last night.

From what I was reading, you'll get the G28 code if the car is not running, or if it's bad. The other multiple codes could be telling me that there's a compromised wire(s).

-Todd


6 Faults Found:

00513 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
*********** 27-00 - Implausible Signal
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
*********** 27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01266 - Glow Plug Relay (J52)
*********** 31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00626 - Glow Plug Indicator Light (K29)
*********** 31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00750 - Warning Lamp
*********** 31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30*
*********** 27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
The car won't run without the engine speed sensor signal. I think it is part of the 3 wire plug that also feeds the needle lift sensor, or in that area of the engine. I am at work and just going by memory at this point.
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
I'm wondering about the voltage issues. How's the battery?

The car won't run with no engine speed sensor - since it also uses it's information in the running of the engine. If that's bad, or unplugged, it won't run.

But that's a lot of codes for that one problem, if it is the problem.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Correct.... the engine will not run without the G28. From other reading, others stated that you'll get the G28 code if you scan the car while not running.

I'm getting some conflicting info where it's located. Any definite location for a B4?

I'm going to check the wiring first, as it's the easiest.

I'll take a look at the ECU, but when I installed the tune in the Summer, there was nothing that would have noted any leakage.

The battery is maybe 2 or 3 months old. I went with much larger than what was called for (group 41). I installed a group 49. I went to charge it last night and it wasn't even half depleted after a lot of cranking sessions.

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
When you turn the key on there should be a loud click of the QA going full or near full. After a few seconds it clicks again as it returns to low setting.

These are louder than the solenoid and the initial one would be at about the same time as the solenoid. You hearing them?

I just tried this.

Turned the key and heard a loud click and then a strange buzzing. The buzzing occurred for about 5 seconds. It was definitely coming from the IP and then it stopped.

I guess this is the QA?

-Todd
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Never heard either of mine buzz.

I agree with the above. Check connectors too, including the one on the ECU.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I checked the wiring and the only compromised wiring I found was for the blue pressure sensor.

I removed the large round electrical connection and found a loose connector (19). Plugged it back in and the car stumbled. I thought I had it, but that was the best that I got. I couldn't get the lines to spit any fuel.

Pulled the codes again.

4 Faults Found:

00513 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
*********** 03-00 - No Signal
00522 - Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (G62)
*********** 30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01269 - Commencement of Injection Valve (N108)
*********** 31-00 - Open or Short to Ground
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30*
*********** 27-00 - Implausible Signal


I have no clue why the coolant sensor showed up. All i did was unplug it and replug it, but the ignition wasn't turned on before it was reconnected.

The shut off solenoid isn't receiving 12v with the key on or when cranking. I'm wondering if this may need a signal from the G28. Jumping 12v to the solenoid didn't help.

Did a bit more research and found out that the OBD 1 cars will give you the G28 code when not running. I'm thinking I may have to replace it, at this point.

Is there a way to bypass the sensor as a troubleshooting step?

-Todd
 

greenskeeper

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Location
USA
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI
I've never heard of the speed sensor going bad....so I'd assume it's fairly reliable (of course it could still fail though).
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Forgot to mention that I pulled the ECU. Absolutely no signs of moisture.

I turned the key and heard the QA as mention, but this time without the weird buzzing. I've heard this buzzing in the past, prior to the issue and never thought much about it.

I'm going to pull the speed sensor and try cleaning it. Some have said that metal shavings stick to it and will throw it off.

I found a post by oilhammer replacing a few, so I guess it does go bad....

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Spent some time checking the wiring again and I pulled and tested the stop solenoid. It's fine.

Pulled the speed sensor and it looked fine, other than a small crack in the insulation. Bentley states it should read between 1.0-1.5K ohms, between pins 1 and 2. Mine tested 100% open.

Looks like I'll be ordering one. Honestly, with all the stuff that needs to be removed to gain access, I'd replace it with a new one just to be safe.

Others have mentioned that injector 3 would take over if the G28 failed. This has me confused. If the speed sensor isn't required, what's the point? Would injector 3 only take over if the car is already running?

I find it odd that the issue was so sudden with absolutely no warning...

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
If the GP LED lights, the 109 relay is good and the ECU is awake, correct?

Still wondering why the stop solenoid isn't receiving 12v. Abacus posted that jumping 12v to the solenoid will allow the car to start, even if the 109 relay is bad.

The car has the updated, gray 109 relay. No clue when it was installed, though.

-Todd

***i was thinking about it and realized the 109 must be good. I was able to retrieve codes, so the ECU is definitely awake.***
 
Last edited:

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I've read that it'll use the crank sensor if #3 sensor fails and vice-versa. I know my AHU won't run without the #3 plugged in. Never tried unplugging the crank sensor. This was in a VW or maybe Bosch publication.

IF it can use #3 it would be in some sort of limp mode. The ECU uses the crank sensor for idle balance.

The cutoff solenoid looses voltage after a few seconds with the key on if it isn't started. Should come back when you start cranking but I see you said you have power while cranking.
 
Last edited:

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I read the same in forums and noticed the same in the Bentley last night. I ordered the sensor, this morning... just under $55 from GAP. Odd that ID Parts couldn't get it. I also ordered a spare 109 relay to toss in the glove box.

I also noticed my G28 code changed from "implausible" to "no signal". I'm hoping this is the fix.


The cutoff solenoid looses voltage after a few seconds with the key on if it isn't started. Should come back when you start cranking but I see you said you have power while cranking.
Actually, I don't have power at the solenoid, or at least mot more than around 0.5v. I had asked if the solenoid wire gets some type of signal from the G28 to energize.

I jumped 12v to the solenoid, but it didn't help anything.

-Todd
 
Last edited:

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Good to know.... another published Bentley discrepancy.

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I guess anything is possible. Was there something in mind?

I think I changed everything that it could possibly be.

-Todd
 

Truckeratlarge

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Kansas City, MO
TDI
Passat, 97, white
Strange, I'm looking this issue up and fell upon this recent post. I just changed the ignition switch, sure was nice to have it crank without contorting my wrist and sticking my tongue out just right. I moved the car to a different space. Then oil pressure alarm went off. I'm not sure if I turned key off right before or right after the engine quit.
So, today I went out to check for fuel, and I too didn't have fuel at the injectors, but there is fuel being returned to filter ... I pulled hose from the plastic T and ran clear line to a container (and plugged the T). There was a nice air free stream going thru the clear return line.
Will the ECU shut engine down on these if they are not rolling?
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Yes. Others have said there's more to the stop solenoid to deliver fuel. The QA is part of the equation on a properly working vehicle.

Add check CPS to the no start list. Testing it is easy, getting it out is a pain. The oil filter, the starter and the front mount need to be removed to get to the CPS.

My research told me that the crank position sensor (engine speed sensor) was out of spec. Without it, the car won't start. I was seeing fuel move, yet was getting nothing at the lines.

$55 + shipping got this to my door. FAE 028 907 319B, made in Spain. First thing I did was check the impedance and I was around 1400 ohms. Mine was 100% open. As mentioned there was a very small crack at the boot, but I doubt that had anything to do with my issue. Likely just being 17 y/o was enough.






Installed it with a new front motor mount, cleaned all the contacts on the starter and cranked it. The engine stumbled and I watched fuel spray at the injector nuts. Success! Button her up.

Car drives like it did a week ago; I notice nothing different. From what I've read, when these things start going bad, the idle is erratic and will stumble when driving. I don't really recall anything out of the ordinary happening. Drove the car to work, parked it, wouldn't start 14 hours later.... bizarre.

If I were changing the front mount, I'd consider changing the CPS, or vice versa. My mount was compressed about 0.375" more than the new OE one that I installed. I saw no markings, so I can only assume aftermarket. The car never really vibrated, from what I could tell. I kept it.





-Todd
 
Top