Stock Intercooler diference upgrade?

[mittzlepick]

So in my pile of parts i noticed one intercooler was thicker than the others like another row thicker? No clue where i got it and part numbers not handy right now anyone know if this is a better flowing unit? Its got alh fittings on it not crapppy clicker like on bew? Will edit when im in the basement to read the part #s

 

[Nero Morg]

The 1.8t used an intercooler as well, but in some of them it was thinner. The ALH is a chonkey Boi cooler. The only real way to 'upgrade' the cooler is to get a taco taco, or FMIC.

 

[Rrusse11]

Side Mount Turbo Upgrade Intercooler for 1999-2004 VW Golf/VW Jetta MK4 1.8T | eBay

1999-2004 VW JETTA. 1999-2004 VW GOLF. If a part was successfully installed, went into service, and then failed, it may be eligible for warranty repair. IMPORTANT NOTICE Coresize 7"x8.25"x5.125".

www.ebay.com

mizzle,
Here's what I got. It made a MUCH bigger difference than expected. I should've pulled the old one apart, I suspect it was all clogged up after close to 20yrs of operation. We did have to drill a hole for a different mid-pipe mount point.
But other than that, it was pretty straightforward. I'd also recommend the vented fender liner as well.

 

[Andyinchville1]

Side Mount Turbo Upgrade Intercooler for 1999-2004 VW Golf/VW Jetta MK4 1.8T | eBay

1999-2004 VW JETTA. 1999-2004 VW GOLF. If a part was successfully installed, went into service, and then failed, it may be eligible for warranty repair. IMPORTANT NOTICE Coresize 7"x8.25"x5.125".

www.ebay.com

mizzle,
Here's what I got. It made a MUCH bigger difference than expected. I should've pulled the old one apart, I suspect it was all clogged up after close to 20yrs of operation. We did have to drill a hole for a different mid-pipe mount point.
But other than that, it was pretty straightforward. I'd also recommend the vented fender liner as well.

Hi

That's not bad price wise.

What kind of differences should one expect by putting that on? I'm sure cooler intake temperatures but do you have any rough idea how much?
Does boost come on quicker due to freer flow? ...

Admittedly , I don't boost high very often, mainly hoping for better flow and less intake restriction so maybe better MPGs..

Thanks
Andrew

 

[Gothmolly]

The 1.8t used an intercooler as well, but in some of them it was thinner. The ALH is a chonkey Boi cooler. The only real way to 'upgrade' the cooler is to get a taco taco, or FMIC.

"chonky boi"? what language is that?

 

[Rrusse11]

Andy,

I wasn't looking for a performance enhancement, just more air = improved efficiency. I was pleasantly surprised by the sooner/quicker boost and overall response. I don't drive for FE, my nozzles are too big for that and in retrospect would probably been better off with .216 nozzles than the .230s for economy, and I doubt there would be much appreciable loss of performance.

On the other hand, I'm ready to go to a bigger turbo as an option, along with the PD150 airbox I've already got.

GTD1756VRK Billet Wheel GEN I/GEN II Hybrid Turbo vacuum converted and welded onto stock 1.6, 1.9, 2.0TDI – GotTuned.com

gottuned.com

 

[Nero Morg]

"chonky boi"? what language is that?

Millennial chatter

 

[jmodge]

I've found two different thicknesses of intercoolers between the three Mk4's that I've had

 

[PakProtector]

I have to say I have some doubt as to how much good those thicker variants work. The longer the outside air is in there, the hotter it gets, and with less delta-T between it and the rear part of the cooler the less heat gets transferred. This air running up the back will be hotter. It is a matter of getting more air thru it, and since it is thicker I have my doubts about that happening. If only my CFD folks had nothing better to do with their time, I'd have the computing machines getting a solid answer to this...
cheers,
Douglas

 

[jmodge]

You might be right, upstream and downstream temp sensors would tell the story

 

[jettawreck]

The 1.8t used an intercooler as well, but in some of them it was thinner. The ALH is a chonkey Boi cooler. The only real way to 'upgrade' the cooler is to get a taco taco, or FMIC.

The intercooler in the 2003 1.8T that I used in the gas to TDI conversion was the same as the 2003 TDI donor. The piping was a bit different. Apparently there must be some minor differences perhaps between vendors(?) as noted from some. My 2001 has always run a few degree cooler intake air temps than both the 2003's have. Boost levels vary only slightly.
I really doubt there is any benefit to increasing the intercooler volume/size unless other serious mods have been or going to be made.

 

[rwthomas1]

The intercooler in the 2003 1.8T that I used in the gas to TDI conversion was the same as the 2003 TDI donor. The piping was a bit different. Apparently there must be some minor differences perhaps between vendors(?) as noted from some. My 2001 has always run a few degree cooler intake air temps than both the 2003's have. Boost levels vary only slightly.
I really doubt there is any benefit to increasing the intercooler volume/size unless other serious mods have been or going to be made.

When "mod-itis" strikes me, I start looking at intake systems and IC upgrades. Eventually I come back to earth as I can't see how they will really benefit in the driving I do 99% of the time. Yes, an upgrade IC and piping may reduce intake temps on hard pulls, and recover faster. But realistically how long does anyone spend at full power, or even just accelerating hard? 5-10seconds? Then you're at cruise speeds. Would a FMIC drop the intake temps at cruise 10 or even 20*F? And if they did, so what? Would it make any difference 99% of the time?

Don't get me wrong, if someone wants to drop the coin on mods, I'm all for it, part of this is a hobby, have fun with it. I'm a bit more focused on ROI than I used to be...

RT

 

[jmodge]

True, the other two reasons under normal circumstances I could see is if someone runs steep mountain roads or tows a lot

 

[rwthomas1]

True, the other two reasons under normal circumstances I could see is if someone runs steep mountain roads or tows a lot

Yes, I should've mentioned that. Unfortunately, neither apply to me. So as much as the kid in me wants to spend the coin on a Darkside FMIC that'll bolt right up to my vnt17, well, the adult in me says spend the funds elsewhere. And a PD150 intake, and, and..... FMIC is really cool though, pun intended...

RT

 

[Andyinchville1]

When "mod-itis" strikes me, I start looking at intake systems and IC upgrades. Eventually I come back to earth as I can't see how they will really benefit in the driving I do 99% of the time. Yes, an upgrade IC and piping may reduce intake temps on hard pulls, and recover faster. But realistically how long does anyone spend at full power, or even just accelerating hard? 5-10seconds? Then you're at cruise speeds. Would a FMIC drop the intake temps at cruise 10 or even 20*F? And if they did, so what? Would it make any difference 99% of the time?

Don't get me wrong, if someone wants to drop the coin on mods, I'm all for it, part of this is a hobby, have fun with it. I'm a bit more focused on ROI than I used to be...

RT

Hi

I am wondering if intake mods are viewed in the same light as exhaust mods .... seems to follow along the idea that unless you are making serious power (or attempting to make serious power) they are a waste?

I know that was the feeling I got when I contemplated and asked questions about getting a 3" turbo back system for my car.

While it may not have made huge power gains , it did make a noticeable change in MPGs ( I would like to see 60 mpg at 60 mph without having to hypermile) and sound (this happens 100% of the time ;-))....

Maybe not super cost effective (probably around $800) for maybe 2 mpg (but admittedly we also bumped the timing a tad , had an alignment and raised the front of the car 1" at the same time so maybe not all the gain was purely exhaust) bit it did make a change for the better despite not being a part of a massive power adding plan.

I can't help but think that a free flowing intake cannot be of some benefit even if not part of a massive hp infusion plan also

To that end I am thinking that a free flowing better performing intercooler can only help ( of course if the rest of the intake is restrictive maybe then the better intercooler won't be seen as much of a benefit?l)

I had already bought a brm Intake manifold ( figuring if I have to take off my alh manifold to clean it I may as well put back something for freer flowing) and plan on some better intake plumbing (airbox and piping and turbo piping, turbo etc) but as a step in the right direction I'll probably get the intercooler just as a step along the way...

I'll keep everybody posted along the way but it may be a while because it's cold out and I have no heated garage.

 

[Andyinchville1]

Andy,

I wasn't looking for a performance enhancement, just more air = improved efficiency. I was pleasantly surprised by the sooner/quicker boost and overall response. I don't drive for FE, my nozzles are too big for that and in retrospect would probably been better off with .216 nozzles than the .230s for economy, and I doubt there would be much appreciable loss of performance.

On the other hand, I'm ready to go to a bigger turbo as an option, along with the PD150 airbox I've already got.

GTD1756VRK Billet Wheel GEN I/GEN II Hybrid Turbo vacuum converted and welded onto stock 1.6, 1.9, 2.0TDI – GotTuned.com

gottuned.com

Hi ,

How far along were you or are you in you intake system mods when you added the intercooler?

Was it the first thing done or somewhere in the middle?

Did you already upgrade from the factory pancake piping ( I think that's what I heard people calling the plastic pipes the factory uses to / from the turbo).

The reason I ask is if everything else is super restrictive in the system would changing the intercooler make that much difference or should something else be change first then change the intercooler out?

On the other hand if you feel the intercooler made that difference despite factory plumbing that would be a real win in my book but even if not every little bit helps.

Currently my entire intake system is stock .

My initial plan was to replace the pancake pipe xcetera with kerma freer flowing turbo pipes but they are currently out of stock ....
I would like to do the intercooler at the same time as doing those pipes so everything would be done at the same time rather than having to take things apart twice.

In either case I'm ordering the intercooler later today ....

Thanks

 

[rwthomas1]

Hi

I am wondering if intake mods are viewed in the same light as exhaust mods .... seems to follow along the idea that unless you are making serious power (or attempting to make serious power) they are a waste?

I know that was the feeling I got when I contemplated and asked questions about getting a 3" turbo back system for my car.

While it may not have made huge power gains , it did make a noticeable change in MPGs ( I would like to see 60 mpg at 60 mph without having to hypermile) and sound (this happens 100% of the time ;-))....

Maybe not super cost effective (probably around $800) for maybe 2 mpg (but admittedly we also bumped the timing a tad , had an alignment and raised the front of the car 1" at the same time so maybe not all the gain was purely exhaust) bit it did make a change for the better despite not being a part of a massive power adding plan.

I can't help but think that a free flowing intake cannot be of some benefit even if not part of a massive hp infusion plan also

To that end I am thinking that a free flowing better performing intercooler can only help ( of course if the rest of the intake is restrictive maybe then the better intercooler won't be seen as much of a benefit?l)

I had already bought a brm Intake manifold ( figuring if I have to take off my alh manifold to clean it I may as well put back something for freer flowing) and plan on some better intake plumbing (airbox and piping and turbo piping, turbo etc) but as a step in the right direction I'll probably get the intercooler just as a step along the way...

I'll keep everybody posted along the way but it may be a while because it's cold out and I have no heated garage.

Well, when I did all the mods in my signature they all happened pretty much at the same time. I went with the 2.5" IDParts downpipe and Buzzken system. At the time I was figuring on more mods, particularly the intake side, in the future. Well, time marches on and here I'm am 100+K later, and still no more mods. Dunno if they are worth it at this time. Every increase from here is quite incremental. Several trusted TDI gurus have advised leave it be. If I really want more, it'll cost money and reliability.

I like the mostly stock look. To the untrained eye, re: State inspectors, other than the larger exhaust, it's a normal MKIV. I like the idea of the PD150 intake piping, manifold, etc. as this will maintain the stock look. A FMIC and the piping throws that off a bit. Maybe I'm being too cautious, I doubt they care about a 17yr old diesel car enough to really look at it.

All that said, I'd still like those mods, but I highly doubt they are needed. It's a fairly large sum that is probably better spent on refreshing the all original 309K suspension bushings, joints, etc.

Maybe, I have too many other expensive hobbies.

RT

 

[rwthomas1]

Hi ,

How far along were you or are you in you intake system mods when you added the intercooler?

Was it the first thing done or somewhere in the middle?

Did you already upgrade from the factory pancake piping ( I think that's what I heard people calling the plastic pipes the factory uses to / from the turbo).

The reason I ask is if everything else is super restrictive in the system would changing the intercooler make that much difference or should something else be change first then change the intercooler out?

On the other hand if you feel the intercooler made that difference despite factory plumbing that would be a real win in my book but even if not every little bit helps.

Currently my entire intake system is stock .

My initial plan was to replace the pancake pipe xcetera with kerma freer flowing turbo pipes but they are currently out of stock ....
I would like to do the intercooler at the same time as doing those pipes so everything would be done at the same time rather than having to take things apart twice.

In either case I'm ordering the intercooler later today ....

Thanks

I always forget to mention I have replaced the absurdly restrictive lower IC pipe with a metal pancake pipe from a 1.8turbo gasser. Easy install, and connected to the vnt17 with some silicone elbow hoses. Had I to do that again, I would have clocked the vnt17 compressor housing to make the inlet piping much simpler. The metal pancake pipe is a cheap easy mod. Unless you are going all the way with the IC, I think updated piping overkill. The pancake fixes the only truly restrictive part.

RT

 

[Rrusse11]

Andy,
Last breathing mod I've made, the airbox awaits as the cherry on top. All stock plumbing, my research concluded that there wasn't much to be gained with replacing the IC pipes. Car's running so good that I'm loathe to mess with it for marginal gains. TB coming up, and a set of tires in the spring, those are the current priorities.
Cheers

 

[mittzlepick]

Wow i started quite a conversation.

 

[Andyinchville1]

Andy,
Last breathing mod I've made, the airbox awaits as the cherry on top. All stock plumbing, my research concluded that there wasn't much to be gained with replacing the IC pipes. Car's running so good that I'm loathe to mess with it for marginal gains. TB coming up, and a set of tires in the spring, those are the current priorities.
Cheers

Hi

Good to know you got all those benefits with the stock piping ...

Maybe the intercooler was a restriction to the intake side like the cat and muffler is a restriction to the exhaust side.

In any event, I ordered the intercooler .... I'm looking forward to getting it and maybe even more MPGs!

Thanks

 

[Rrusse11]

Andy,
Bear in mind that with my turbo I'm pushing a lot more air, and I rarely hit full boost of 26psi. With just the new IC my IQ # dropped a couple points and I had to dial it back to deal with a smokey WOT. Once the TB is in I'll do the new airbox and go see Rocketchip to retune for the bigger MAF. I'll talk to him then about possibly dialing the fuel maps back. Lol, or get tempted to go to a 28psi tune and lift the rev and speed limiter.
Another strategy is to get the injectors cleaned and have the pop pressures lifted.

 

[jettawreck]

Hi

Good to know you got all those benefits with the stock piping ...

Maybe the intercooler was a restriction to the intake side like the cat and muffler is a restriction to the exhaust side.

In any event, I ordered the intercooler .... I'm looking forward to getting it and maybe even more MPGs!

Thanks

I really doubt you will see any benefits/improvement in mpg. Although, much like exhaust upgrades with stock setup, most of the "improvement" is likely just owner justification for the mod. Without long term log records before and after it's just an assumption and will probably never balance out with the effort/expense in fuel savings.
But, if it makes you feel good, perhaps it's worth it. Or, if you plan on some big future performance mods, wel, then you are set already.

 

[Curious Chris]

Go with large FMIC. If I were starting over now I would of done that first and then a LSD (I loved my Wavetrac). You need a large FMIC for any upgrade as the stock intercooler will heat soak after about 10 seconds at full throttle: I did a test for Jeff at Rocketchip logging fueling and intake air temperature, 15 seconds at full throttle with PP520's and RC2; fueling was good until the intercooler heat soaked and the fueling dropped down to stock injector range.

 

[Andyinchville1]

Go with large FMIC. If I were starting over now I would of done that first and then a LSD (I loved my Wavetrac). You need a large FMIC for any upgrade as the stock intercooler will heat soak after about 10 seconds at full throttle: I did a test for Jeff at Rocketchip logging fueling and intake air temperature, 15 seconds at full throttle with PP520's and RC2; fueling was good until the intercooler heat soaked and the fueling dropped down to stock injector range.

HI,

Are you currently running a FMIC now ? If so what did you go with?

Not that I full throttle the stock intercooler long enough but how long is a FMIC good for at full throttle before returning to stock levels of fueling.

It would be interesting if anybody had any other data concerning stock VS the upgraded side mount intercooler mentioned above VS a FMIC.

Interesting about the 10 and 15 seconds tho.

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Nevada_TDI]

I have always wondered if the FMIC affects boost pressure on non-huge turbos. A friend of mine installed an FMIC on a stock VNT-17 tuned ALH and he lost 3 or 4 pounds of boost at WOT. I can only relate this question using shop air compresser as a model. A given size compressor can only maintain "x" quantity of air at a given pressure CFM as the CFM needs go up, the compressor is already at the top of it's curve so the pressure goes down.. So by adding volume needed to pressurize an FMIC, and all the extra piping required, would that be a parallel idea to "x" number pounds of air at a given pressure and too much volume requirement runs the turbo off of it's curve?

I have a 1.8 Turbo pancake pipe, and I am not sure how much it helps or not but the internal cross section is at least 3 times greater, theoretically reducing the resistance to maintain air volume/velocity going to the intercooler.

 

[Rrusse11]

And therein lies the rub, you need a BIG turbo to keep the extra volume FMIC charged up to pressure.
Will a smaller IC, front or side mount, heat soak sooner? Sure, but short of racing, I really can't see much of a need for
10+ seconds of WOT.

 

[jmodge]

Once the volume is filled I don’t think it would matter, it can only flow as much as the valve train will allow.

 

[Nevada_TDI]

You are right the valve train presents it's own limits, but the higher the RPM the greater the need of volume to maintain presssure. I think.

 

[rwthomas1]

I'm not sure I follow that logic. A turbo, any turbo, for all practical purposes, should have no problem filling up a larger intercooler and related piping, when upgrading. The volume ingested by the engine is unchanged. The only difference is the volume of the IC and piping. Unless the IC and piping is impractically large, the turbo will compress this new volume to the manifold pressure called for by the wastegate/vnt nozzle. There may be a lag, as the turbo works to compress the air, but it will. I understand that simply cooling the air will also make it denser and now require even more air, but ultimately it should catch up. Unless the turbo is really small, and the IC really large. The lag maybe undesirable, and then a larger turbo may be warranted. I can't see how a vnt17 was down on boost simply by upgrading the IC/piping, unless the turbo was already severely maxed out to begin with. Even then, the reduction in boost was simply not giving the turbo enough time to catch up. If I'm wrong, somebody educate me please.

RT