Still won’t rev after rebuild
- Thread starter GolfPD150
- Start date
Golfpd16, check the video link in the first post. If that rod is not moving all the way or sticking when give it gas hard there's a problem.
forums.tdiclub.com
Sticky turbo actuator?
I've read a lot about sticky vanes and vacuum leaks and bad turbo actuators and because of how bad my MPGs have become and how I can't feel comfortable going out of town in this car because of having to go up a hefty hill without a fully operational turbo, I feel like I might have to drop the...
Today I have removed the ESP sensor as VCDS says this is defective. I don’t think this is my issue but I’m going to swap it out for another used one.
I changed crank sensor for a new Febi one and the car would either not start or when it did it would rev up on its own but the rev needle would sit at zero.
I swapped it back out for the genuine VW AUDI sensor and starts every time now but still won’t rev. I’ll see what the ESP sensor brings once I have replaced it
I changed crank sensor for a new Febi one and the car would either not start or when it did it would rev up on its own but the rev needle would sit at zero.
I swapped it back out for the genuine VW AUDI sensor and starts every time now but still won’t rev. I’ll see what the ESP sensor brings once I have replaced it
So the ESP sensor got fitted. It didn’t change anything except now the light has gone out on the dash. It does come back on around 2000rpm when the car stumbles.
I’m lost! I have gone back to the beginning and following the constant crank sensor implausible signal fault that VCDS gives me even though it starts every time, with a genuine crank sensor.
Using a pin meter I have found two of the crank sensor cables going up to the ECU appear to be touching or shorting out. However doing a bit of a google it does appear that the white and black wire is joined together by the factory about 8 inches away from the ECU. Is this correct? I don’t want to strip out my loom if I am wrong, there appears to be a TSB about this written about on this forum, to do with adding an extra earth?No idea why after 20 odd years this would be an issue now though?
I’m lost! I have gone back to the beginning and following the constant crank sensor implausible signal fault that VCDS gives me even though it starts every time, with a genuine crank sensor.
Using a pin meter I have found two of the crank sensor cables going up to the ECU appear to be touching or shorting out. However doing a bit of a google it does appear that the white and black wire is joined together by the factory about 8 inches away from the ECU. Is this correct? I don’t want to strip out my loom if I am wrong, there appears to be a TSB about this written about on this forum, to do with adding an extra earth?No idea why after 20 odd years this would be an issue now though?
Mozambiquer
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I would hook up an oscilloscope and look at the waveform for the speed sensor. An implausible signal means it's getting a signal, but it's not correct, which could mean a damaged reluctor or something like that. I would hook a scope up to the crank and cam sensors and watch the sync as well.
burn_your_money
Veteran Member
There was a thread on here not too long ago where a guy had a missing tooth on the crank wheel. I forget what his symptoms were though. You can pull the crank sensor and inspect the wheel for damage. May as well check the cam sensor wheel while you are under the hood.
Hi again, so the other day I bit the bullet and ordered a genuine VW AUDI crank sensor. I checked the readings across the pins of my old one which was giving the symptoms previously mentioned of starting but not revving past 2000rpm. I noticed I was getting some peculiar readings that kept fluctuating.
I then checked the new sensor and didn’t get the same fluctuating readings, I then found another two old crank sensors and these were matching the same as the new genuine one on the multimeter. So safe to say I now have three crank sensor all reading the same so I decided to fit the new genuine sensor.
Now when I do this the car cranks for longer and when it does start it will rev up on its own to the point of having to kill the ignition, there is no tacho meter reading and zero throttle response. I am now getting P065 INTERNAL ROM ERROR.
Now thinking maybe the ECU has gone after sitting for so long and the other crank sensor was masking some symptoms?
I am so lost right now, but determined!
I then checked the new sensor and didn’t get the same fluctuating readings, I then found another two old crank sensors and these were matching the same as the new genuine one on the multimeter. So safe to say I now have three crank sensor all reading the same so I decided to fit the new genuine sensor.
Now when I do this the car cranks for longer and when it does start it will rev up on its own to the point of having to kill the ignition, there is no tacho meter reading and zero throttle response. I am now getting P065 INTERNAL ROM ERROR.
Now thinking maybe the ECU has gone after sitting for so long and the other crank sensor was masking some symptoms?
I am so lost right now, but determined!
tgray
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I have seen ECU's with corroded terminals and one with a burned out component on the inside. Most of the time they do not fail but you never know. It may be worth trying another one.
Thanks for your reply’s.
You can buy ECU/M’s with the immobiliser deleted. I thought about having mine checked/repaired but I have read that quite often they come back still with the same issues.
right now I have to follow a path that VCDS is taking me on. Unless anyone has something else cheaper easier that I can check? I have had the crank sensor loom to ECU checked by an auto electrician, all was ok.
You can buy ECU/M’s with the immobiliser deleted. I thought about having mine checked/repaired but I have read that quite often they come back still with the same issues.
right now I have to follow a path that VCDS is taking me on. Unless anyone has something else cheaper easier that I can check? I have had the crank sensor loom to ECU checked by an auto electrician, all was ok.
Mozambiquer
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Find someone with an oscilloscope and check the signal from the crank sensor.
PakProtector
Veteran Member
I thought I read a DBW thing on PD injectors saying they run in the first bit of injection but don't get into the full delivery event 'cause something is stuck. Seems unlikely that two sets of injectors would have had this issue. Idle a can of cleaner through? Can't help thinking that time sitting could have caused some wacky growth that is shutting down most of the fuel delivery.
Can't quite say what the 'bang on the tank' does...
cheers,
Douglas
Can't quite say what the 'bang on the tank' does...
cheers,
Douglas
tgray
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If the engine is shaking it is not running on all 4. Are you sure the compression is good? Maybe a valve or lifter is sticking open. That will drop the rpms and run rough. If a lifter then gets free again it can work fine for a while. You say you hear air coming back through the air box. That sounds like a valve problem and if the intake valve is stuck open it will reduce any boost it needs to rev up. I have had lifters on an alh get weird and stuck like that. Maybe the oil pump has too much pressure with a stuck relief valve. Maybe you dropped some dirt into oil port on the cam somewhere. I messed up an engine once with silicone getting into an oil passage way. Just throwing out ideas but from your description it sounds maybe it is mechanical in nature if you still have weird intake sounds.
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
If I've repeated my stance on injectors plenty of times. Here is what I think.
If you leave injectors for a PD motor laying around and don't take care of them, the injector will stop working. Injectors for the PD motor should be cleaned and stored by submerging them in diesel. If it is possible, I recommend running diesel purge into them before removal.
I will never forget the Hurricane 'Sandy' that in late Octoer, 2012, went up the US East coast and did major damage to New Jersey and New York. One of our customers lived of all places, on Sandy Beach, New Jersey and in the middle of a PD BRM engine project, left his car on 'high ground'. When he got back to it, about 6 months later, the engine started and idles perfectly. But it would not accelerate much over 20 mph. His case is where most of our discovery was done.
Those injectors were removed and simply left exposed to whatever temperature was in the trunk of the car. What happened is the solenoid end of the injector, which is supposed to operate by vibrating open just a few thousandths of an inch, glued shut against the plate that seals secondary fuel from entering the nozzle. Once this happens, the only cure is to send the nozzles to a shop with the equipment to disassemble, clean, and correctly reassemble the solenoid nut. It requires about $75,000 of equipment and most diesel injector shops will not or cannot fix them. The cost is usually rivaling the cost of rebuilt injectors. There are not many I would trust to do that.
If you have someone with a known good set of nozzles who is willing to allow you swap their injectors into your engine, it will cost the price of injector hold down bolts, maybe some seals and some expertise, which I explain below, to figure this out. It should take the better part of 3 hours to check a 'sample' set of injectors in your car.
Other than that, it is important to know that injector bores that are not prepared properly will cut the seals, especially the lower black seal, due to a burr that rises up in the injector bore. If any of the lower black seals are cut, even if it is only a single one, the fuel pressure that should build to 100 psi at 2500 rpm, goes back to the tank. You might get 25psi, which is not enough to make the engine run well. The very first thing to do is make sure that has not happened to you. The two top seals are for the fuel return galley.
The reason this happens is the hold down does not push straight down, but cocks the injector away from the hold down bolt. That causes the body of the injector to vibrate against the aluminum of the injector bore, raising up a burr that needs to be removed. We use a 120 grit 60 flap 3/4" x 1" drum sanding wheel on a die grinder to polish out the bore, especially on the half hemisphere away from the bolt. Some 500 or 1000 grit wet/ dry sandpaper and your finger will work. There will be some minor dust to blow out. If you feel the need, plug the bottom of the injector bore with a paper towel or cotton batting.
When reinserting injectors, DO NOT use the hold down screw to pull the injector in, unless you want to strip the screw's threads out of the head. Use a clean block of wood or carefully with a punch, seat the injector into the bore. There is a moronic method of centering the injectors, but if you lightly tighten the injector hold down bolt, and wiggle the injector as the hold down block rests against the cam journal tower, it will find it's own center.
The hold down bolts are not reusable, but if you are sneaky about it, you can put 78 INCH POUNDS + 1/4 turn and that is enough to test injectors without destroying a non-reusable TTY bolt. You can take the bolt out and still put it back. We use a finish torque of 78 in lb +1/2 turn.
All this, just so you can properly install your injectors, which I would be willing to bet you did not, and now so you can test an alternative set in your engine.
The last thing is how we prime PD injectors, the simplest way I know how to do. First thing, before opening the fuel system, lightly clamp the fuel feed and return lines going to and from the tank from behind the fuel filter. This will stop the fuel filter and fuel lines from siphoning back to the tank. Do your work on the system. I offer this caution: the first injector you remove will drain the entire contents of the fuel return galley into that cylinder. You have to remove the fuel from that cylinder by either operating the starter with the injector or glow plug removed, or by sucking the fuel out with some vacuum apparatus. Otherwise, you risk hydro-lock and bending a rod. To continue...
Pulling injectors is easily done with a fairly large heel bar, under the solenoid nut after first working the injectors back and forth with a pair of large screwdrivers. After returning the injectors to their respective bores (btw: switching injectors around, you can ascertain if the cylinder or the injector is the issue by checking idle balance numbers on the injectors that have been switched, before and after..), tighten the injector hold down screws as directed above. Once the injectors are back in, you can remove the clamps from the fueling lines.
Then, be sure your battery is fully charged and remove all of your glow plugs. GP removal will do two things; If you didn't remove any excess fuel, it will come flying out. Do NOT stand in front of the engine at first start. The engine will also operate at about 450 rpm, which will more quickly get fuel to your injectors. Run the starter for about 30 seconds at a time. If you watch under the hood (bonnet, if you are English..) you will eventually be able to see some mist coming up out of one of the glow plug holes, then another, until you see mist coming from all 4 gp holes. Once all of the glow plug holes are emitting mist, reinstall glow plugs. If everything on timing is right, it should start right up. Now, with replacement injectors, see if your engine has any power.
Anything else, feel free to call, pm or email
If you leave injectors for a PD motor laying around and don't take care of them, the injector will stop working. Injectors for the PD motor should be cleaned and stored by submerging them in diesel. If it is possible, I recommend running diesel purge into them before removal.
I will never forget the Hurricane 'Sandy' that in late Octoer, 2012, went up the US East coast and did major damage to New Jersey and New York. One of our customers lived of all places, on Sandy Beach, New Jersey and in the middle of a PD BRM engine project, left his car on 'high ground'. When he got back to it, about 6 months later, the engine started and idles perfectly. But it would not accelerate much over 20 mph. His case is where most of our discovery was done.
Those injectors were removed and simply left exposed to whatever temperature was in the trunk of the car. What happened is the solenoid end of the injector, which is supposed to operate by vibrating open just a few thousandths of an inch, glued shut against the plate that seals secondary fuel from entering the nozzle. Once this happens, the only cure is to send the nozzles to a shop with the equipment to disassemble, clean, and correctly reassemble the solenoid nut. It requires about $75,000 of equipment and most diesel injector shops will not or cannot fix them. The cost is usually rivaling the cost of rebuilt injectors. There are not many I would trust to do that.
If you have someone with a known good set of nozzles who is willing to allow you swap their injectors into your engine, it will cost the price of injector hold down bolts, maybe some seals and some expertise, which I explain below, to figure this out. It should take the better part of 3 hours to check a 'sample' set of injectors in your car.
Other than that, it is important to know that injector bores that are not prepared properly will cut the seals, especially the lower black seal, due to a burr that rises up in the injector bore. If any of the lower black seals are cut, even if it is only a single one, the fuel pressure that should build to 100 psi at 2500 rpm, goes back to the tank. You might get 25psi, which is not enough to make the engine run well. The very first thing to do is make sure that has not happened to you. The two top seals are for the fuel return galley.
The reason this happens is the hold down does not push straight down, but cocks the injector away from the hold down bolt. That causes the body of the injector to vibrate against the aluminum of the injector bore, raising up a burr that needs to be removed. We use a 120 grit 60 flap 3/4" x 1" drum sanding wheel on a die grinder to polish out the bore, especially on the half hemisphere away from the bolt. Some 500 or 1000 grit wet/ dry sandpaper and your finger will work. There will be some minor dust to blow out. If you feel the need, plug the bottom of the injector bore with a paper towel or cotton batting.
When reinserting injectors, DO NOT use the hold down screw to pull the injector in, unless you want to strip the screw's threads out of the head. Use a clean block of wood or carefully with a punch, seat the injector into the bore. There is a moronic method of centering the injectors, but if you lightly tighten the injector hold down bolt, and wiggle the injector as the hold down block rests against the cam journal tower, it will find it's own center.
The hold down bolts are not reusable, but if you are sneaky about it, you can put 78 INCH POUNDS + 1/4 turn and that is enough to test injectors without destroying a non-reusable TTY bolt. You can take the bolt out and still put it back. We use a finish torque of 78 in lb +1/2 turn.
All this, just so you can properly install your injectors, which I would be willing to bet you did not, and now so you can test an alternative set in your engine.
The last thing is how we prime PD injectors, the simplest way I know how to do. First thing, before opening the fuel system, lightly clamp the fuel feed and return lines going to and from the tank from behind the fuel filter. This will stop the fuel filter and fuel lines from siphoning back to the tank. Do your work on the system. I offer this caution: the first injector you remove will drain the entire contents of the fuel return galley into that cylinder. You have to remove the fuel from that cylinder by either operating the starter with the injector or glow plug removed, or by sucking the fuel out with some vacuum apparatus. Otherwise, you risk hydro-lock and bending a rod. To continue...
Pulling injectors is easily done with a fairly large heel bar, under the solenoid nut after first working the injectors back and forth with a pair of large screwdrivers. After returning the injectors to their respective bores (btw: switching injectors around, you can ascertain if the cylinder or the injector is the issue by checking idle balance numbers on the injectors that have been switched, before and after..), tighten the injector hold down screws as directed above. Once the injectors are back in, you can remove the clamps from the fueling lines.
Then, be sure your battery is fully charged and remove all of your glow plugs. GP removal will do two things; If you didn't remove any excess fuel, it will come flying out. Do NOT stand in front of the engine at first start. The engine will also operate at about 450 rpm, which will more quickly get fuel to your injectors. Run the starter for about 30 seconds at a time. If you watch under the hood (bonnet, if you are English..) you will eventually be able to see some mist coming up out of one of the glow plug holes, then another, until you see mist coming from all 4 gp holes. Once all of the glow plug holes are emitting mist, reinstall glow plugs. If everything on timing is right, it should start right up. Now, with replacement injectors, see if your engine has any power.
Anything else, feel free to call, pm or email
Last edited:
BorisBug99
Well-known member
I had a bad MAF that did the same thing. installed a new one and all good. btw it never threw a code.
tgray
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Thanks to Franko6 for such a detailed explanation. These difficult problems for one person have been often valuable info for many others. It is hard to believe an injector went bad after 6 months of sitting (but good to know). I have seen VE pumps gum up real bad sitting but that was years and not months. Would only one bad injector take down the engine rpms?
So I can finally update this with the problem!
I put an endoscope into the crank sensor hole and turned the engine over by hand.
Initially 3 people watched the videos of the (reluctor) crank ring turning and no faults on all teeth were found.
I was sitting having a few beers as you do and watching the videos back when I was 99.9% sure I could see two bent teeth.
A few days later I took the sump off and found that there were indeed two bent teeth!
last night I bent the teeth back and using an old crank sensor installed I used feeler gauges between good teeth and sensor and then tweaked the bent teeth until I had similar drag on the feeler gauges.
Sump on and oil back in, turned the key and pushed the accelerator.....
IT FINALLY REEVVSSS!!
Thank you for all the help/wisdom etc it all really helped keep me going on this!
I put an endoscope into the crank sensor hole and turned the engine over by hand.
Initially 3 people watched the videos of the (reluctor) crank ring turning and no faults on all teeth were found.
I was sitting having a few beers as you do and watching the videos back when I was 99.9% sure I could see two bent teeth.
A few days later I took the sump off and found that there were indeed two bent teeth!
last night I bent the teeth back and using an old crank sensor installed I used feeler gauges between good teeth and sensor and then tweaked the bent teeth until I had similar drag on the feeler gauges.
Sump on and oil back in, turned the key and pushed the accelerator.....
IT FINALLY REEVVSSS!!
Thank you for all the help/wisdom etc it all really helped keep me going on this!
csstevej
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Nice find !
Mozambiquer
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Glad you found it! I guess it shows how important it is that they are all even.So I can finally update this with the problem!
I put an endoscope into the crank sensor hole and turned the engine over by hand.
Initially 3 people watched the videos of the (reluctor) crank ring turning and no faults on all teeth were found.
I was sitting having a few beers as you do and watching the videos back when I was 99.9% sure I could see two bent teeth.
A few days later I took the sump off and found that there were indeed two bent teeth!
last night I bent the teeth back and using an old crank sensor installed I used feeler gauges between good teeth and sensor and then tweaked the bent teeth until I had similar drag on the feeler gauges.
Sump on and oil back in, turned the key and pushed the accelerator.....
IT FINALLY REEVVSSS!!
Thank you for all the help/wisdom etc it all really helped keep me going on this!
Judson
Veteran Member
Wow what a journey! But at least you know that your car is sound. All the things you did along the way is not all wasted time.
ToxicDoc
Veteran Member
How did the teeth get bent??
tgray
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VW engineers probably didn't think to write a code fault for this one. It is strange that it seemed to work fine on one post in the beginning.