stick with G52 in your tranny - here's why...

SUNRG

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david_594 said:
Now if only someone could come up with a list with all the viscoscities at 40 degrees so those of us in colder climates would know what will make our car happiest.
40C = 104F, so while 40C is closer to say -5C than 100C, V@40C is not really a cold flow performance measure. it would be awesome if we could learn V@-5C for all these fluids.
 

Zero10

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Yeah, viscosity @ -40*C is a nice bit of information too....
Learned the hard way that at -40*C, Amsoil's series 2000 75W90's viscosity = solid.
It took 30 minutes of idling before I could drive my 944, and even then, it took nearly WOT just to make it drive, and if I pushed the clutch in, the back wheels would lock up.


V@100*C is nice if you track your car, but other than that it almost never gets that hot on the street.
 

AndyH

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Zero10 said:
Yeah, viscosity @ -40*C is a nice bit of information too....
Learned the hard way that at -40*C, Amsoil's series 2000 75W90's viscosity = solid.
It took 30 minutes of idling before I could drive my 944, and even then, it took nearly WOT just to make it drive, and if I pushed the clutch in, the back wheels would lock up.


V@100*C is nice if you track your car, but other than that it almost never gets that hot on the street.
Interesting! The Series 2000 gear lubes (which have been superceded twice now and are not available) were the first I used in my '96 TDI while I lived in St Louis. Not as cold as a Canadian winter, but I had no trouble driving in Northern Michigan (Houghton - in the far UP) in the winter without a heater or garage.

The new fluids - Severe Gear for the diffentials and manual trans fluids (MTF and MTG) are far superior to the series 2000 fluids.

I'll bring my IR thermometer with me as I drive around today. I'll shoot trans case temperatures at the bell housing, middle, and end cover. I think you'll be surprised at the temperatures.

Andy
 

AndyH

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- 1997 Passat TDI wagon with 329,000 miles.
- AMSOIL 5W-30 Synchromesh fluid in the trans (lower viscosity than spec'd 75W-90 gear lube)
- 1/2 hour drive home in suburban stop-start traffic at up to 50 mph.
- 90F ambient temp.
- Temperatures taken with IR non-contact thermometer from 1-2 inches away from the transmission case.

Bell housing: 174 F
Just right of shift linkages: 163 F
Black steel end cover: 154 F

(Front of head between #3 and #4 injectors 205 F)

Andy
 

Frank M

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AndyH said:
- - 1/2 hour drive home in suburban stop-start traffic at up to 50 mph.
I am not an engineer but it would be safe to assume that VW's testing for lube approval would be much longer than 1/2 hour and include a range of loadings.
 

AndyH

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Frank M said:
I am not an engineer but it would be safe to assume that VW's testing for lube approval would be much longer than 1/2 hour and include a range of loadings.
Ok, Frank - no sweat here. Where I'm missing you is that this is about operating temperature for the transmission - not about any approval. Help me understand what you're trying to say? Thanks
 

Frank M

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AndyH said:
Ok, Frank - no sweat here. Where I'm missing you is that this is about operating temperature for the transmission - not about any approval. Help me understand what you're trying to say? Thanks
the temps. you posted, are they an improvement? what should they be after half hour of driving..
 

AndyH

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Frank M said:
the temps. you posted, are they an improvement? what should they be after half hour of driving..
Frank,

The temps were taken to get some data on how warm the transmissions run in service. The goal is to determine which viscosity value - 40C or 100C is more relevant. Certainly this will depend on ambient conditions.

You can find the questions above from David, Zero, and SunRG.

Andy
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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With the viscosity at the two temperatures, one can determine the viscosity index (VI). This is assumed linear (on a semi-log scale - with viscosity being log and temperature not) between 40C and 100C. My references show a linear curve for a variety of oils down to ~0F (some down to -40F). With the VI of these fluids from one lab, I would feel pretty comfortable using this "linear" assumption for relative comparison between fluids.

The labs I have looked at charge $20 for a 2nd viscosity measurement (a total rip off when they do spectro, vis, water, TAN and soot for $12). Maybe we can find a trustworthy (both in practice and business) lab to run a batch of vis measurements on the fluids to determine the VI and compare fluids with sufficient information to make an educated decision. Having run these tests before, it takes ~5 minutes/test, but they can be run simultaneously - you just need to keep track of what you're doing. I would expect that to do 20 tests (10 fluids at 2 temps) they would have 3 hours labor in it maximum. There is more time involved for the fluids to stabilize in their respective baths, but that does not take anyone's time.
 

AndyH

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When I sent the G052171 and G055 to Cleveland for testing, the initial report came back with Vis@ 40C. I sent a quick note to the lab and asked for the Vis@ 100C and had it within a couple of days.

Maybe just including a note on the sample sheet to get both numbers would work for CTC. These tests were the standard $15.20 (wholesale).
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Well, we're dealing with the same lab. I have to say that i'm not at all pleased with the service they have given me. Everything is a runaround, no one has the answer, or if they do, the next person I talk to has a different answer. They charged me $25 for the 2nd viscosity and another $25 for a particle count on top of the pre-paid kit I already purchased (BAB10) I had to call multiple times to get it done, they had to send it to another lab, then another, then it's lost, then found, I get quoted a different price every time I inquire about it, finally just said do it and send me the bill and hoped for the best. The last samples I sent in - 3 weeks after mailing, call to inquire, no record of them. Get a phone call the next day asking me questions about the sample (questions that if they read the sheet included with the sample would not need to be asked). Asked the price again, puts me on hold for 5 min, then comes back and has to call back 15 minutes later with the price. When asked why it changed from last time, their answer was that they didn't charge me correctly last time, this time they want $32.50. Blah, Blah Blah. They may be technically capable, but have horrible customer service.

If you have a contact that you have had good luck there, Please let me know. I'm currently looking for another analysis lab but would reconsider with CTC/Staveley if I can find a person to deal with that has both an IQ and a pulse. I've been through 5 or 6 people so far in 2 labs (Kansas City and Cleveland)

Sorry to go off topic - a viscosity index is the missing information to be able to accurately compare these fluids "efficiency" in our transmissions.
 

Frank M

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Fix_Until_Broke said:
. Everything is a runaround, no one has the answer, or if they do, the next person I talk to has a different answer.
. The last samples I sent in - 3 weeks after mailing, call to inquire, no record of them. Get a phone call the next day asking me questions about the sample (questions that if they read the sheet included with the sample would not need to be asked).
I would not regard their results as reliable...
Find a new lab and re-sample everything
 

AndyH

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Fix,

I'm amazed at your results with CTC! How have you been getting kits? Everything I've done with them has been thru the Oil Analyzers contract/partnership. The customer service side is handled by OAI in Superior and I've been happy with the response. I'm not as happy that the return time seems to be getting longer on samples, but the data has been good and requests for retesting or for additional testing has been fairly quick and free. I've never gotten a particle count from CTC, so can't speak to that. I know that the Cat labs do that as well, and you may have one near you. It's not inexpensive, though.

Some of the gear lube vendors list a VI on the datasheets. I think the only ones we'd need to have additional testing done would be the VW 'mystery' lubes. :)
 

AndyH

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Frank M said:
I would not regard their results as reliable...
Find a new lab and re-sample everything
Do you really think that customer service gaffs render the results worthless?? Who do you recommend?
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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AndyH said:
Fix,

I'm amazed at your results with CTC! How have you been getting kits? Everything I've done with them has been thru the Oil Analyzers contract/partnership. The customer service side is handled by OAI in Superior and I've been happy with the response. I'm not as happy that the return time seems to be getting longer on samples, but the data has been good and requests for retesting or for additional testing has been fairly quick and free. I've never gotten a particle count from CTC, so can't speak to that. I know that the Cat labs do that as well, and you may have one near you. It's not inexpensive, though.

Some of the gear lube vendors list a VI on the datasheets. I think the only ones we'd need to have additional testing done would be the VW 'mystery' lubes. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank M
I would not regard their results as reliable...
Find a new lab and re-sample everything


Do you really think that customer service gaffs render the results worthless?? Who do you recommend?
Kits are from Champion Brands Lubricants I believe. I tried to purchase directly from them and they were much more expensive even at quantities ~100 kits! They must subsidize the cost of these or something or don't want to deal with individuals. Oil Analyzers probably does enough business with them that the occational extra request is well handled out of good faith. I'm not saying that they should have done it for free, but $25 to repeat one test out of 5 or 6 included in the kit for ~$13 :rolleyes:. They didn't have a good response for this other than "well, that's our pricing, or we made an error before but are charging/quoting you the right ammount this time".

I have not had reason to suspect their data which is why I'd be willing to give them a 2nd (now 3rd) chance just to maintain consistency in my oil analysis measurements/results. Maybe I'll look into Oil Analyzers, see if they will honor my remaining sample kits. It's not like I can repeat my used oil anlaysis with out a sample anymore.

I was thinking that to run all of the samples in the same lab would reduce the uncertainty in the results (we know how much the measured viscosity can range within the same advertised viscosity)
 

Frank M

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buy a bridge from the tooth fairy..

AndyH said:
Do you really think that customer service gaffs render the results worthless?? Who do you recommend?
Of course poor customer service renders the results unreliable.

When there is a problem like that, then it usually goes deeper into the business. They were clueless about what was sent and what the requested tests were.
After that information was supplied, they conveniently came up with results...

Who ever trusts their results may want to buy a bridge from the tooth fairy..:D
 
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AndyH

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Frank,

I use CTC (thru OAI) for all my analysis, and for all my commercial customers. Aside from the length of time it takes for results, I've not had any trouble with CTC, have had excellent responsiveness thru their web-link to the lab, and have been extremely happy with the little bit of OAI customer service I've required.

You didn't answer the rest of the question, though - if not CTC, who do you recommend?

Thanks!
Andy
 

Frank M

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AndyH said:
Frank,

I use CTC (thru OAI) for all my analysis, and for all my commercial customers. Aside from the length of time it takes for results, I've not had any trouble with CTC, have had excellent responsiveness thru their web-link to the lab, and have been extremely happy with the little bit of OAI customer service I've required.

You didn't answer the rest of the question, though - if not CTC, who do you recommend?

Thanks!
Andy
my original reply was regarding the experience "Fix_Until_Broke " had with them..

I do not have any one to recommend. I have used Herguth and Blackstone when I used to do forensics.
 

AndyH

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AndyH said:
I've just drained the AMSOIL MTG 75W-90 from my '97 Passat (326,000 miles young; Dieselgeek short shift kit) and installed AMSOIL's MTF Synchromesh. It's an experiment in fuel mileage and shifting smoothness.
And the synchromesh is outta-there. I drained the fluid after running 3000 miles. The average fuel mileage increase over three tanks of fuel was .9 MPG. Shifting on the move was still very smooth but not as nice as G50 or AMSOIL MTG. The bummer was pushing the shifter into first at a stop. It got more stiff as time went on and for the last 1000 miles it took two, sometimes three tries to get it into gear from neutral at a stop light.

[echo]AND [and and nd] IN THIS [this] CORNER [corner ner] WEIGHING IN AT 6.5 Centistokes.....[/echo]

The current fill is VW G052171A2. I'll be driving around town for a week, then heading on a 3000 mile run to Superior, WI, Mott, ND, and back to San Antonio. I'll take all the fuel mileage help I can get...!

Andy
 
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AndyH

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Ok...enough 'fun with data sheets' for one sitting.

(Manual Tranny Fluids)

VI Vis@40C Vis@100C
..............16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90 GL-4/-5
..............15.6 = VW G50/G51
GL-4
185 90.0 15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90 GL-4
..............15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
GL-5
..............15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
GL-4/-5
..............15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
GL-4/-5
132 116.0 14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
GL-5
177 84.5 14.7 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
GL-4
183 56.2 10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
GL-4
194 47.1 9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)
None
208 41.6 9.08 = Penzoil Synchromesh trans fluid None
198 34.0 7.5 = Redline D4 ATF Dexron III / Mercon / API GL-4
..... 31.2 6.5 = VW G-052-171-A2 None
..... 35.1 6.38 = VW G-055-726-A2 None
..............6.3 = VW G52 (part numbers G052726A2 / G05272601) None


(Automatic Tranny Fluids - except for Redline D4 dual-use)


VI Vis@40C Vis@100C
.............8.3 = Honda CVT Fluid
.............7.6 = Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF
172 37.4 7.5 = AMSOIL Automatic transmission fluid ATF
198 34.0 7.5 = Redline D4 ATF Dexron III / Mercon / API GL-4
.............7.4 = Mobil 1 Synthetic Dexron/Mercon
197 32.5 7.2 = Redline Synthetic ATF Dexron II / Mercon
.............7.1 = Mobil 1 Synthetic Multi-vehicle ATF
138 40.5 7.1 = AMSOIL Ford type F auto trans fluid
..........5.5-6 = Ford Mercon SP
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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Andy - good collection of data - Thank you for compiling this for us!

I think I am going to try the Redline D4 ATF when I change my 5th gear (again). It has a low viscosity, a high viscosity index (higher than G55 or G-052-171-A2) still GL-4, and I have had good luck with the Redline MTL that I have in there now.
 

AndyH

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AndyH said:
The current fill is VW G052171A2. I'll be driving around town for a week, then heading on a 3000 mile run to Superior, WI, Mott, ND, and back to San Antonio. I'll take all the fuel mileage help I can get...!

Andy
Ok - greetings from El Dorado, KS! The good news - the best mileage I've ever gotten in my B4V came today. I filled up earlier in the week and drove about 300 miles around San Antonio, then started for the North Country this morning - so this is still a mixed tank. 42.4 mpg. The down-side is that there are two experiments here - one is the G052171 in the transmission, and the other is that I finally installed the aerodynamic cover ahead of the rear bumper - and used a nearly-full-width cover from a B4 sedan. It fits very well with very little trimming. Tomorrow will be the first full tank on the highway - and I expect my first 1000+ mile tank.

The G052171 really feels nice in the transmission. The synchromesh shifting challenges are gone and there is definately a MPG impact.

FIX -- I look forward to hearing how the D4 feels!

Andy
 

AndyH

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Ok - my last update here with this transmission fluid.

High mileage to date came today - 43.67
First 1000 -mile tank -- 1025 miles

(update - The climb from Mitchell, SD to Mt Rushmore - over a mile high said the GPS, then the descent into Nebraska netted 44.2MPG and a 1050 mile tank - on Cenex B20.)

I really like the way the G052 171 shifts and I like what it does for mileage. The only thing I don't like about it is the $34/liter pricetag.

(update: 4000 miles after installation, it's taking more force to get into first from a stop. It's not as bad as the synchromesh, but no where near as nice feeling as AMSOIL's MTG. Once I get some local driving in, this fluid is going into the drain pan.)

These mileage numbers came from the combination of the new fluid and the rear-bumper underbody panel. I'll have to change the trans fluid to isolate the mileage gain from just the transmission fluid change.

Andy
 
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Frank M

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AndyH said:
The G052171 really feels nice in the transmission. The synchromesh shifting challenges are gone and there is definately a MPG impact.
Andy
This is exactly what I said 3 years ago, the VW lube is the best... !!!

Forget its cost because once its installed it won't have to be replaced for hundreds of thousands of miles..
 

dave333

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AndyH said:
Ok - my last update here with this transmission fluid.

High mileage to date came today - 43.67
First 1000 -mile tank -- 1025 miles

I really like the way the G052 171 shifts and I like what it does for mileage. The only thing I don't like about it is the $34/liter pricetag.

These mileage numbers came from the combination of the new fluid and the rear-bumper underbody panel. I'll have to change the trans fluid to isolate the mileage gain from just the transmission fluid change.

Andy
Howdy Andy,

Great info you are compiling! How much G052 171 A2 do you get in the trans? I just replaced the fluid in mine (again) and probably only got 1.8l into the fill hole before it started dribbling out. My car was up on jackstands too... I could have sworn I read the manual tranny takes the full 2 liters...
 

AndyH

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dave333 said:
Howdy Andy,

Great info you are compiling! How much G052 171 A2 do you get in the trans? I just replaced the fluid in mine (again) and probably only got 1.8l into the fill hole before it started dribbling out. My car was up on jackstands too... I could have sworn I read the manual tranny takes the full 2 liters...
Hi Dave,

I can only speak for my B4 experience. I had to get the front off the ground to drain everything thru the diff/rear. I've heard that some fluid stays in the end - but don't know if that applies to all the trannies or not. I just let the pass side down first before I fill.

90% is considered a complete change of fluid - especially if staying with the same chemistry.

Andy
 

AndyH

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Frank M said:
This is exactly what I said 3 years ago, the VW lube is the best... !!!

Forget its cost because once its installed it won't have to be replaced for hundreds of thousands of miles..
OEM fluids are guaranteed to meet the minimum standards the engineers require. Those of us 'misapplying' fluids are on our own when it comes to drain intervals. ;)
 

SUNRG

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FWIW - Redline D4 (7.5 cSt - GL4) is on its way to me and I should be able to install it next week.

I've been using Redline MTL (10.6 cSt - GL4) and have been happy with - though I haven't used it in cold weather so I can't comment on it's winter performance.

Cheers!
 

LanduytG

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So you are using a product that is suppose to be a 75W-90 and new its out of grade?

VW's lubes are the best for what? If they start out of grade how can they be the best? IMHO I wouls give up a bit of economy to have the protection of a heavier lube. And extra mile to the gallon is not worth a $2000 rebuild.

Greg
 
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