dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
Stick this in your Bin and smoke it !: GM & Honda ahead of the curve : 0
Stick this in your Bin and smoke it!: GM & Honda ahead of the curve : 0
- Thread starter dieseldorf
- Start date
We should keep in mind for the ranier suv(from edmunds):
Curb Weight: 4417 lbs. Gross Weight: 5550 lbs.
The trick is going to be coming up w/ a car that can meet the new requirements. Hopefully, honda's solution will work.
I'm thinking that once the big three get into diesels. There will be some kind of loophole. Just like using flex-fuel credits toward total fleet efficiency.
Curb Weight: 4417 lbs. Gross Weight: 5550 lbs.
The trick is going to be coming up w/ a car that can meet the new requirements. Hopefully, honda's solution will work.
I'm thinking that once the big three get into diesels. There will be some kind of loophole. Just like using flex-fuel credits toward total fleet efficiency.
wjdell
Top Post Dawg
GM - how nice - that 4 door mini truck would be very nice but untill GM puts a very efficent diesel motor in it they can keep it. A V8 diesel is to much they need a 6 or better a 5 cylinder.
alayos
Veteran Member
lol, but who wrote this article, where did it come from, is this credible. Dont just take everything as truth.
Is this just for the europeans or does this apply to the american market?
Id love to see a diesel Honda. My jetta would be for sale the day they hit the market. lol (not because i dont love it, because VW dealers wont stand behind it)
Hondas amonia generating thing sound unrealable/fragile though....
Buick- I wonder what the cost of seven gallons of toxic urea will be?
I wonder if we can use our own urine for the urea supply! HAHAHA That would be great.
Is this just for the europeans or does this apply to the american market?
Id love to see a diesel Honda. My jetta would be for sale the day they hit the market. lol (not because i dont love it, because VW dealers wont stand behind it)
Hondas amonia generating thing sound unrealable/fragile though....
Buick- I wonder what the cost of seven gallons of toxic urea will be?
I wonder if we can use our own urine for the urea supply! HAHAHA That would be great.
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Matthew_S
Veteran Member
All Honda needs to do is build it. GM has to build it and prove it won't be a hunk of crap, that is something they seem to have a tough time doing.
dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
Source: current edition of AUTOMOBILE magazine.alayos said:
supton
Top Post Dawg
I dunno--DOHC? I know these high speed diesels can rev, but do they really need DOHC to hit 5k? Seems like just something else to make a TB (timing chain?) more expensive to do, when the majority of the population is either idling or cruising.
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
supton: Seeing the DOHC setup on a VW 16v engine, it's rather simple.
Timing belt spins one cam. That cam spins the other cam via a very short timing chain on the other side of the head.
Timing belt spins one cam. That cam spins the other cam via a very short timing chain on the other side of the head.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
With diesels you want to have 4 valves per cylinder in order to permit the injector to be dead-center in the middle ... can't do that with a 2-valve layout without seriously compromising valve sizes (and 2-valve TDI's don't have the injector centered).
With 4 valves per cylinder and OHC, it's easier to actuate them with two separate camshafts.
It doesn't necessarily complicate a timing belt job. If it has two pulleys, you just lock both of them in place, no big deal. Other systems use a pulley to drive one cam and then either internal chain or gears to drive the other cam, and then the job is no different than with SOHC.
With 4 valves per cylinder and OHC, it's easier to actuate them with two separate camshafts.
It doesn't necessarily complicate a timing belt job. If it has two pulleys, you just lock both of them in place, no big deal. Other systems use a pulley to drive one cam and then either internal chain or gears to drive the other cam, and then the job is no different than with SOHC.
dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
24V, DOHC:
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
... and no timing belt, either.
Sig Dawg
Veteran Member
Once again stupid GM has something great, and they don't sell it. Put that 4.2L in half ton and don't put a stupidly exhorbitant price on it and it will sell like crazy.
catmandoo
Veteran Member
i'll agree with that.my 92 chevy diesel pickup is just about to turn 500,000 miles i need something to replace it with but until i can get a 1/2 ton with a diesel the miles are just gonna keep stacking up.
Strack
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 10, 1999
- Location
- HAckensack, NJ USA
500K miles on a Chevy Diesel? How much repair did it take to keep it going? That's longevity that I never thought GM would be able to maintain. Although I have faith that they can and hopefully will improve their product lineup this go around.
AutoDiesel
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2000
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
Maybe, just maybe they are designing a good diesel this time andSig Dawg said:
don't want to put it out on the market until it is a viable product?
This is a brand new design that they are working on with the full
intention of putting in SUV's and light duty pick-ups.
They won't sell it until it is ready.
AutoDiesel
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2000
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
Strack said:
I had a 6.2L Suburban that had close to 350K miles on it
when I sold it.
Besides regular maintenance items the only things I ever
replaced because of failure were a couple of injector lines.
I know a few guys who are still running the so-called crapy
350 GM diesels and are well over 500k miles on each of them.
If you bought one from the last year or two they were produced
they had most of the bugs worked out.
dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
First Drive: GM’s All-New 50-State Diesel V8
Light-duty pickups, SUVS, and other large vehicles to get all-new diesel after 2009.
“Diesel is critical to GM’s global strategy,” Tom Stephens, vice president of GM Powertrain division said in August at an introduction of an all-new diesel V-8 engine to executives and journalists. The company says the new engine meets BIN 5 requirements for 2010, which are much more stringent than BIN 5 levels for 2007. Our first impressions are that the all-new V-8 is gutsy, smooth, quiet, clean, which we experienced from a drive in a current model Buick Ranier mid-size SUV fitted with the new engine.
Front and side of new engine is silhouetted against small-block gas engine
Because we were not allowed to look under the hood of the Ranier, which had a large 18-inch square bulge on its right side, protruding about three inches tall, we’re guessing it displaces 4.5 to 5.0 liters. We’re also guessing it’s a pushrod engine, because most important to GM is to keep the price of the engine low, and the size compact enough to fit in mid-size SUVs. GM did say the engine is compacted graphite iron (CGI) with aluminum cylinder heads that have integrated manifolds. Connecting rods and caps are fracture split, a common GM method for keeping fit tolerances accurate. The injection system is common-rail, as well.
To meet emissions, the engine uses an oxidizing catalyst, followed by an SCR (selective catalytic reduction) catalyst, and then a particulate filter about the size of a large pickup muffler. “Today is a solution that meets the NOx challenge,” said Charlie Freese, head of diesel engineering for GM. Freese added that the new engine is “more than 3.0 liters and less than 6.6.”
The SCR system was chosen for its flexibility with different qualities of fuel, Freese said. “Liquid urea is what we use. Our intention is to size the tank to span one oil change interval.” Freese said that size would be about five to seven gallons, which would add about 40 to 55 pounds to the vehicle.
Photos and details of the new engine are still a secret at GM
New engine will have variable turbocharging, but Freese would not say if it would be a single, double, or even a tri-turbo system.
Two days before the engine was introduced to journalists, it was driven by GM top executives, who made comments regarding the low noise and good launch feel, according to engineers. To us the engine was reminiscent of Audi’s 4.0-liter diesel V-8, except the GM engine is claimed to meet 2010 BIN 5 emissions standards, which the Audi cannot presently meet.
The engine was only running in the test Ranier a week before the demonstration drive, although it has been in development for more than a year. It is mated to a six-speed automatic, but a new version of the new rear-drive six-speed family—which are the 6L45, 6L50, 6L80, and 6L90—that are being introduced for 2007.
Cruising on a level road in sixth gear, the engine revved at 1500 rpm at 56 mph. At part throttle acceleration it shifts from 1500 to 2000 rpm, and would get into fifth gear by 35 mph. The tall gearing and low-revving steady torque output is consistent with V-8 diesels from BMW and Audi, but something unusually refined for a Buick SUV. The maximum torque output of the new engine is 520 lb ft beginning at 1800 rpm and staying strong up to 4500 rpm. The new engine is promised to “deliver industry leading power and torque and refinement in noise and vibration,” said Freese. “It hits peak torque at 1800 rpm and goes out to 4500 rpm.”
In addition, Freese promises “this engine is going to be at benchmark levels for noise and vibration.” So far we feel GM has hit that mark. The engine produces 330 hp, according to Freese.
We noticed some diesel combustion rattle noise—characteristic to all diesels and a product of the way combustion occurs—but it can be heard only from outside and behind the vehicle. Inside there is no telltale diesel noise, apart from brief constant-speed whine events from the turbo. The engine was running on ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) fuel available in the U.S. , said engineers, not a cleaner GTL (gas-to-liquid) blend or other more highly refined fuel more common in Europe .
Launch speed is impressive, although immediate take-off from a stop feels a bit bogged down. Engineers explained that the traction control system was calibrated to clamp down on the launch because wheelspin and axle tramp would otherwise result. Above 5 mph, the diesel-equipped Ranier pulled strongly, and at full acceleration shifted just above 4000 rpm in the middle gears of the six-speed.
On one zero-to-60 mph sprint, the Ranier took about ten seconds, however, that was with five adults on board, with the aggressive traction control system engaged.
The engine is an all-new GM design, not a version of anything from Isuzu, which is where the previous generations of the 6.6-liter Duramax came from. The engine is destined to be used in vehicles “under 8500 lb GVW”, said Tom Stephens, vice president of GM Powertrain division.
General Motors’ direction is to put diesels in large vehicles and focus on optimizing gasoline engines for small vehicles. “Diesel would pay back earlier for the big truck,” says Freese, “The Saturn Green Line hybrid would pay back earlier than a diesel.”
New diesels will cost “several thousand” dollars more than comparable previous diesels not subject to the stringent new emissions standards.
The mid-size Buick Ranier was originally developed for a family of inline engines, five and six cylinders, and the current gasoline 5.3-liter is a tight fit inside the engine compartment. Fitting the new diesel engine inside this space was of great importance to GM, said Freese. “To really be able to have maximum flexibility in how we use this powertrain, it has to fit in the envelope of the gasoline small-block engine. It gives us a lot of flexibility to introduce this powertrain,” he explained. “This is just a mule, not a vehicle that will go in production. This is intended to show this powertrain fits under the hood.”
Light-duty pickups, SUVS, and other large vehicles to get all-new diesel after 2009.
“Diesel is critical to GM’s global strategy,” Tom Stephens, vice president of GM Powertrain division said in August at an introduction of an all-new diesel V-8 engine to executives and journalists. The company says the new engine meets BIN 5 requirements for 2010, which are much more stringent than BIN 5 levels for 2007. Our first impressions are that the all-new V-8 is gutsy, smooth, quiet, clean, which we experienced from a drive in a current model Buick Ranier mid-size SUV fitted with the new engine.
Front and side of new engine is silhouetted against small-block gas engine
Because we were not allowed to look under the hood of the Ranier, which had a large 18-inch square bulge on its right side, protruding about three inches tall, we’re guessing it displaces 4.5 to 5.0 liters. We’re also guessing it’s a pushrod engine, because most important to GM is to keep the price of the engine low, and the size compact enough to fit in mid-size SUVs. GM did say the engine is compacted graphite iron (CGI) with aluminum cylinder heads that have integrated manifolds. Connecting rods and caps are fracture split, a common GM method for keeping fit tolerances accurate. The injection system is common-rail, as well.
To meet emissions, the engine uses an oxidizing catalyst, followed by an SCR (selective catalytic reduction) catalyst, and then a particulate filter about the size of a large pickup muffler. “Today is a solution that meets the NOx challenge,” said Charlie Freese, head of diesel engineering for GM. Freese added that the new engine is “more than 3.0 liters and less than 6.6.”
The SCR system was chosen for its flexibility with different qualities of fuel, Freese said. “Liquid urea is what we use. Our intention is to size the tank to span one oil change interval.” Freese said that size would be about five to seven gallons, which would add about 40 to 55 pounds to the vehicle.
Photos and details of the new engine are still a secret at GM
New engine will have variable turbocharging, but Freese would not say if it would be a single, double, or even a tri-turbo system.
Two days before the engine was introduced to journalists, it was driven by GM top executives, who made comments regarding the low noise and good launch feel, according to engineers. To us the engine was reminiscent of Audi’s 4.0-liter diesel V-8, except the GM engine is claimed to meet 2010 BIN 5 emissions standards, which the Audi cannot presently meet.
The engine was only running in the test Ranier a week before the demonstration drive, although it has been in development for more than a year. It is mated to a six-speed automatic, but a new version of the new rear-drive six-speed family—which are the 6L45, 6L50, 6L80, and 6L90—that are being introduced for 2007.
Cruising on a level road in sixth gear, the engine revved at 1500 rpm at 56 mph. At part throttle acceleration it shifts from 1500 to 2000 rpm, and would get into fifth gear by 35 mph. The tall gearing and low-revving steady torque output is consistent with V-8 diesels from BMW and Audi, but something unusually refined for a Buick SUV. The maximum torque output of the new engine is 520 lb ft beginning at 1800 rpm and staying strong up to 4500 rpm. The new engine is promised to “deliver industry leading power and torque and refinement in noise and vibration,” said Freese. “It hits peak torque at 1800 rpm and goes out to 4500 rpm.”
In addition, Freese promises “this engine is going to be at benchmark levels for noise and vibration.” So far we feel GM has hit that mark. The engine produces 330 hp, according to Freese.
We noticed some diesel combustion rattle noise—characteristic to all diesels and a product of the way combustion occurs—but it can be heard only from outside and behind the vehicle. Inside there is no telltale diesel noise, apart from brief constant-speed whine events from the turbo. The engine was running on ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) fuel available in the U.S. , said engineers, not a cleaner GTL (gas-to-liquid) blend or other more highly refined fuel more common in Europe .
Launch speed is impressive, although immediate take-off from a stop feels a bit bogged down. Engineers explained that the traction control system was calibrated to clamp down on the launch because wheelspin and axle tramp would otherwise result. Above 5 mph, the diesel-equipped Ranier pulled strongly, and at full acceleration shifted just above 4000 rpm in the middle gears of the six-speed.
On one zero-to-60 mph sprint, the Ranier took about ten seconds, however, that was with five adults on board, with the aggressive traction control system engaged.
The engine is an all-new GM design, not a version of anything from Isuzu, which is where the previous generations of the 6.6-liter Duramax came from. The engine is destined to be used in vehicles “under 8500 lb GVW”, said Tom Stephens, vice president of GM Powertrain division.
General Motors’ direction is to put diesels in large vehicles and focus on optimizing gasoline engines for small vehicles. “Diesel would pay back earlier for the big truck,” says Freese, “The Saturn Green Line hybrid would pay back earlier than a diesel.”
New diesels will cost “several thousand” dollars more than comparable previous diesels not subject to the stringent new emissions standards.
The mid-size Buick Ranier was originally developed for a family of inline engines, five and six cylinders, and the current gasoline 5.3-liter is a tight fit inside the engine compartment. Fitting the new diesel engine inside this space was of great importance to GM, said Freese. “To really be able to have maximum flexibility in how we use this powertrain, it has to fit in the envelope of the gasoline small-block engine. It gives us a lot of flexibility to introduce this powertrain,” he explained. “This is just a mule, not a vehicle that will go in production. This is intended to show this powertrain fits under the hood.”
Wonderful. All those words and not a single one about fuel economy. If it costs several thousand dollars more than the previous diesel engine, which makes several thousand additional more than the gasoline engine, but if it gets only marginally better fuel economy, why bother? What does that make it? $4000-$5000 more than a gasoline engine? $6000? $7000? More than that? The payback would be too long to make it worthwhile.
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Tin Man
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2001
- Location
- Coastal Empire
- TDI
- Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Uh, I drive a lot. I have 4 kids and 3 grandparents and a lot of stuff. I want a Suburban with this kind of engine. Please.
TM
TM