Status hearing w/ Judge is F 12/16 - check this link for transcript of meeting

[DanB36]

Payment charts posted in another thread or two: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/vw_payment_range_table.pdf. I'll be interested to see what the difference is between a fix being "timely available" and "not timely available", since it sounds like the latter is what triggers the buyback for the Gen 2 cars. It also sounds like it triggers higher restitution if a fix is made available.

Edit: after a little more reading of that chart, I still don't see what's "timely", but I see they're contemplating "certified emissions repairs", which would bring the cars into full EPA compliance, and "approved emissions modifications", which would improve emissions, but not bring the cars into full compliance. They avoid the buyback only if they come up with a certified emissions repair in a timely manner. If they do come up with one, they pay a lower amount of restitution for Gen 2 cars (about $10k for my Q5). If not, but they get an approved modification, they pay higher restitution ($14-20k for my Q5) or offer a buyback (at $60-68k for my Q5). I can see why they're wanting to avoid the buyback--those numbers are up to $150k for some cars!

There's a note that "former owners" will receive half the restitution, but nothing talking about reduced restitution for post-9/15 (or post-any other date) buyers--though that may be a level of detail they just weren't going into in this chart.

 

[jking11]

FTC Link

This is a better link at the FTC which appears to have 95% of the information.

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/162-3006/volkswagen-group-america-inc

It looks like the deadlines for a fix have drifted out to near the end of 2017 depending on which of the three different variant 2 cars you own. The actual brief...

[Proposed] Second Partial Stipulated Order for Permanent Injunction and Monetary Judgment (365.46 KB)

Seems to have most of the particulars.

For my cars it looks like they have until 11/8/17 to have a repair approved for the Touareg. The approved repair date for my Q5 is 12/20/17. Of course the words " a Repair Approval Date may be extended in accordance with Section VIII(B) or (C)." follow those dates.

 

[DanB36]

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/162-3006/volkswagen-group-america-inc

Hey, there's a payment chart! Great! Oh, ffs. It's VIN-by-VIN, and all the VINs are blacked out. Really? It's literally 183 pages of numbers that are absolutely worthless because the VINs are redacted.

 

[DanB36]

They're tightening up the definition of "operable" a bit:

YY. “Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be legally driven on a public road under its own 3.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if: (a) it has a branded title of “Assembled,” “Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard, salvage yard, or salvage dealer after September 18, 2015; or (b) has undergone intentional physical or mechanical stripping or removal of any OEM equipment or parts accounted for in the Buyback Amount, including, but not limited to, removal of lights, wheels, wheel covers, seats, radios, or navigation systems; or (c) has been intentionally damaged, vandalized, or otherwise altered for no legitimate purpose in a manner that reduces the vehicle’s value as calculated in the Buyback Amount, prior to participation in the Settlement Program.

Edit: But the branded title exclusion hasn't changed from the 2-liter settlement--branded titles are only excluded if they were branded on or before 9/18/15, and the car was sold by a junkyard or salvage yard after 9/18/15.

 

[DanB36]

Also looks like post-9/15 buyers are subject to reduced payments on a VIN-by-VIN basis if an Eligible Former Owner timely claims.

 

[MBQ]

Also looks like post-9/15 buyers are subject to reduced payments on a VIN-by-VIN basis if an Eligible Former Owner timely claims.

We all knew what happened to the 2.0L.

Does it say anything about post 1/31/2017 purchase?

 

[DanB36]

Does it say anything about post 1/31/2017 purchase?

All post-9/18/15 buyers are treated the same under this one.

 

[youngman]

Also looks like post-9/15 buyers are subject to reduced payments on a VIN-by-VIN basis if an Eligible Former Owner timely claims.

Trying to find that. Where can I find this info?

 

[14q7tdi]

EEE. “Reduced Performance” means a change in any of the following performance
attributes: (1) a reduction in calculated fuel economy using the EPA formula of over 3 MPG;
(2) a decrease of greater than 5% in peak horsepower; or (3) a decrease of greater than 5% in
peak torque.

Wow, that's not a very hard target to reach. They can lose 12HP and 20ftlbs at the peak and still pass. Guess we shouldn't get our hopes up for a buyback.

 

[tdiesling]

It looks like if is going to be almost a year before we get final answer on the status of Gen 2 cars. A little frustrating, but hey, it looks like we get sales tax back now if there is a buyback!

 

[DanB36]

Trying to find that. Where can I find this info?

FTC Order, page 13:

BBB. “Post-September 2015 Purchaser Restitution” means the monetary compensation that Volkswagen will pay to Post-September 2015 Purchasers who elect a Buyback, Certified Emissions Repair, or Approved Emissions Modification under the 3.0L Settlement Program. If an Eligible Former Owner files a claim, the Post-September 2015 Purchaser Restitution is equal to the Buyback Restitution less 50% of: (big snip)

 

[DanB36]

Eligible Former Owners have until May 1, 2017, or 75 days after preliminary approval of the settlement, whichever is later, to identify themselves, and 60 days from the Effective Date (the date the settlement is approved) to submit a complete claim. Pages 38-39.

 

[DanB36]

Fix must include extended warranty (similar coverage to the 2-liter extended warranty) for at least 10 years/120k miles from new, or 4 years/48k miles from time of the fix. Lemon law-like provision, essentially the same as in the 2-liter settlement, is present. Pages 40+.

 

[TdiSandiego]

It looks like if is going to be almost a year before we get final answer on the status of Gen 2 cars. A little frustrating, but hey, it looks like we get sales tax back now if there is a buyback!

1st generation buybacks getting sales tax back?

 

[bird67]

As posted on other 3.0 thread:

Like the title says, if you own a Gen2.x 3.0 tdi, this deal sucks.

The entire settlement for Gen2 3.0 owners is based on a lie: that VW has a fix that will not affect how the TDI performs. No rational person believes that (for all the reasons set out in hundreds of pages preceding this post).

Guess who gets to decide whether the VW fix is acceptable? Not you, not me. EPA gets to decide. The same EPA that accepted $billions in the settlement announced last month. Even giving EPA the benefit of the doubt, it cares about pollution, not performance as drivers experience it. EPA doesn't care if the fix makes your car sluggish, or shift weirdly, or accelerate awkwardly. EPA cares about emissions (that is, assuming EPA's core mission isn't drastically different under a Trump administration).

While 2.0 owners and 3.0 Gen1 owners get to decide their own fates - fix, no fix, sell back - we 3.0 Gen2 owners are left to twist in the wind, for many months to come, while a proven fraud and a crippled agency decide our fates. And we have to decide whether to opt-in or opt-out long before any evidence is made avaiable to us, upon which to base such a decision.

Class counsel will try to sell us on what a great deal it is, forcing VW to prove that its supposed fix will work. Except they are giving VW until October-December 2017 to get the approval PLUS giving VW three (3) 30-day extensions beyond that! So if you're hoping to know soon the fate of your 3.0 Gen2.x, fuggetaboutit - you won't know anything until 2019.

What a sh*tshow. We're ****'ed. And it's class counsel's fault.
__________________

 

[14q7tdi]

As posted on other 3.0 thread:

Like the title says, if you own a Gen2.x 3.0 tdi, this deal sucks.

The entire settlement for Gen2 3.0 owners is based on a lie: that VW has a fix that will not affect how the TDI performs. No rational person believes that (for all the reasons set out in hundreds of pages preceding this post).

Guess who gets to decide whether the VW fix is acceptable? Not you, not me. EPA gets to decide. The same EPA that accepted $billions in the settlement announced last month. Even giving EPA the benefit of the doubt, it cares about pollution, not performance as drivers experience it. EPA doesn't care if the fix makes your car sluggish, or shift weirdly, or accelerate awkwardly. EPA cares about emissions (that is, assuming EPA's core mission isn't drastically different under a Trump administration).

While 2.0 owners and 3.0 Gen1 owners get to decide their own fates - fix, no fix, sell back - we 3.0 Gen2 owners are left to twist in the wind, for many months to come, while a proven fraud and a crippled agency decide our fates. And we have to decide whether to opt-in or opt-out long before any evidence is made avaiable to us, upon which to base such a decision.

Class counsel will try to sell us on what a great deal it is, forcing VW to prove that its supposed fix will work. Except they are giving VW until October-December 2017 to get the approval PLUS giving VW three (3) 30-day extensions beyond that! So if you're hoping to know soon the fate of your 3.0 Gen2.x, fuggetaboutit - you won't know anything until 2019.

What a sh*tshow. We're ****'ed. And it's class counsel's fault.
__________________

Completely agree. This is such a blatant move to just drag out VW's costs over time and not deal with it this year. It's a freakin software fix, you don't think they know if it works or not by now? And their "Acceptable Level" of "reduced performance" of 5% of power and basically 15% of MPG? What a f-in joke.

 

[tdiesling]

Okay, so if they can't meet the 5% HP 228hp (240) 5% 407 lb/ft (428) and 3mpg 21mpg city/35mpg Hwy (24/38) (OEM numbers) I/we get our money?

 

[14q7tdi]

Okay, so if they can't meet the 5% HP 228hp (240) 5% 407 lb/ft (428) and 3mpg 21mpg city/35mpg Hwy (24/38) (OEM numbers) I/we get our money?

You then get a buyback or more restitution money.

 

[tdiesling]

Sorry, that is what I meant to say. We get the increased settlement or buyback.

Thanks

 

[14q7tdi]

I hate being trapped by this car

Exactly. I had planned to trade mine in this summer and now I feel trapped in it unless I want to give up a bunch of money.

 

[az7000']

Trapped to give up money that's not yours yet? You can sell it for what you would have got if no scandal with a $1-2,000 premium to an investor.

Selling it today for a little more then value or fixing/selling it back in a year for significantly more sure doesn't seem trapped to me...

 

[az7000']

For all of you other guys and gals that feel this sucks so bad I would bet you can sell it for KBB + $2k and just be done with it.

Uhhhhh, life is sooo hard, pity me!

Where's my participation trophy?

 

[bioburner]

Does the mileage adjustment apply to the "certified emissions repair" for Gen 2, it only speaks about "approved emissions modification"....

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/2843_-_3.0l_order_-_attachment_5.pdf

 

[bird67]

For all of you other guys and gals that feel this sucks so bad I would bet you can sell it for KBB + $2k and just be done with it.

Uhhhhh, life is sooo hard, pity me!

Where's my participation trophy?

At least you've been consistent, AZ, I'll give you that. You've always taken the VW side on this mess, even when it's irrational to do so. What are you referring to here, though? Why would it be a good deal to sell the car for a KBB price that is so clearly depressed? Where is the extra $2k going to come from?

The facts are simple. Our 3.0 Gen2s are devalued because of VW's deceit. If you don't need to sell, granted, it's a paper devaluation. But for those who need to sell, like the military family in Hawaii who discussed her plight last month, that loss is real - and your sarcasm is neither funny nor helpful. It's just cruel.

 

[flargabarg]

When the settlement was announced the listings for the Gen 1s vaporized practically overnight. If you want out now I can guarantee you that you'll get more than you would have 3 or even 6 months ago. 6 months ago I had a trade-in quote for $19k on my Gen 1, and the one listed for $24k on CL with more miles was pulled 12/23, after sitting on there for months at that price. It's a little more murky on how the market will be for the Gen 2 vehicles but this should put a floor under the prices pretty quickly. After all anyone who wants a diesel Touareg now pretty much has to buy a Gen2 and is very likely to get a fix and some money.

BTW a 2015 depreciating by 30% isn't that weird. The ordinary number for one year is around 20%, and luxury cars are even steeper than that. I found some 2015 gas Touareg listings with 10k miles on them at $38k, which is 27% off new price. It stinks that diesels lost that big resale advantage but the market will find a new normal pretty quickly now that things are certain. Markets hate uncertainty.

However if you don't like it I would genuinely suggest opting out and suing yourself. In exchange for a lot more time and risk you can almost certainly get a buyback. Most people won't want to take that risk and time, but if it's worth it to you, go for it. Right now you're getting $10k without having had to spend a nickel of your own money or all your time at the courthouse. If you think it's a bad deal I encourage you to go for it. You certainly will have an ironclad case on the merits.

 

[bird67]

Flargabarg, your condescending post makes sense given your signature. You own a 3.0 Gen1. You get options - fix, no fix, sell back - without lifting a finger. We 3.0 Gen2 owners do not. Instead, we get the "opt out" option you sarcastically urge us to take.

Look at the opt-out deadline. Notice something important? It comes months before we will know anything about VW's claimed "fix". Does that seem fair to you? That we're supposed to guess whether VW's claimed "fix" is just another lie piled upon the lies that preceded it? While you're cashing your check and moving on from VW, we'll still be bound up in the deceit, waiting for VW to submit its fix (April 2017), for EPA to rule (Dec 2017), for VW to extend the EPA deadline by 90 days (March 2018), to undergo the fix (likely 2019 based on 2.0 track record), and only then know whether VW/EPA has delivered what VW promises will ONLY hurt performance figures by 5%...and if they lied and failed to deliver, it will be too late to opt out BY TWO YEARS. Meanwhile, of course, you'll be long gone from this forum, along with your smug posts like this one. A silver lining for us Gen2 3.0 owners.

 

[14q7tdi]

For all of you other guys and gals that feel this sucks so bad I would bet you can sell it for KBB + $2k and just be done with it.

Uhhhhh, life is sooo hard, pity me!

Where's my participation trophy?

What are you talking about? KBB obviously reflects the huge depreciation hit the cars have taken since a dealer doesn't want to touch them. And where does the $2k come from?

VW clearly is saying we owe you at least $10k for screwing you but you have to hold onto the car for another year(probably longer) or we only give you $5k. Why? Damage is done on my end. If I owned the car prior to Nov '15 and still own it, I should be guaranteed the $10k if I want to sell it tomorrow. That is why I feel trapped.

 

[az7000']

I believe that you can't find a gen 2 TDI for sale anywhere, if they were then "investors" snatched them up. Throw yours on CL for what you want plus $2000, when the investors call let them know you know what they are doing and split the difference.

I always thought when supplies dried up prices went up. Should a 2000 7.3 ford diesel with 150k miles sell for 18K? No way but they do, cant find those for sale either, no one wants a 6.0. And that is without a guaranteed payoff from VW.

I base my thoughts on private party sale, not the dealer. If you work 5-12's and no one will pay you hundreds/hour to test drive your hunk of metal and electronics that is hardly VW's fault...

Another point I have made is if you buy a $60,000 luxury car from the dealer and you are sweating 10 months to get paid or worried about 30% depreciation then maybe that wasn't the right decision. Keep it and do nothing and you are exactly where you would have been. Value is what you get paid, not what it says on paper, I believe these will hold their value significantly better than gassers over the next 3-10 years.

As far as the military person and shipping it back isn't that covered in the 3.0 settlement?

I am military serving overseas or government personnel on assignment overseas. Can I participate in the Settlements?
Yes, military serving overseas or government personnel on assignment overseas can participate in the Settlements, even if their vehicles are located overseas. To determine if you are eligible, please use the Eligibility Check & Online Portal section of this website. If eligible, you can also begin the online registration process through the Online Portal. For questions on how transactions will take place in your circumstances, contact Volkswagen at 1-844-98-CLAIM.

I am military serving overseas or government personnel on assignment overseas. How do I get my car back to the United States to participate in the Settlements?

Military serving overseas or government personnel on assignment overseas are not responsible for the payments associated with shipping their cars back to the United States. If you register through the claims process, Volkswagen will coordinate with you to ship your car back to the United States.

 

[bird67]

AZ, how nice for you that this proposal fits your needs so perfectly, and how nice for you to share your good fortune with the the rest of us - while telling us we're wrong when we say the proposal doesn't work for us. For many of us, it doesn't.

Get the repair and take the money? Sure. The dough is nice. But what are we left with? Under the agreement, VW's fix to Gen 2 cars will be assessed agains a fuzzy standard - anything above "substantial, material adverse degradation" in performance or mileage - with EPA/CARB the final arbiter. "Performance" in this context doesn't mean what drivers experience, it means emissions system performance. So a fix that degrades performance the way drivers experience it - sluggishness, weird shifting, hesitation, lackluster acceleration, engine noise, as examples - would be fine under the agreement's terms. We'd be stuck with it, and have no recourse against VW (see opt-out, below), even if EPA/CARB deem the result acceptable. And if EPA/CARB says performance is degraded, VW need only throw $500 per car and the issue goes away (for everyone except the owner).

So opt out, you say? To do that we would need a crystal ball - opt-out date is April 2017, long before the fix is even submitted. Once you opt out, it's too late to get back in. How can you decide whether to go it alone, when VW's promised fix, and its performance repercussions, remains unknown? IF VW delivers a great fix, and we've opted out, the likely damages are instantaneously eliminated. So we don't trust VW that it has a fix - it has lied repeatedly, after all - but why should we have to make that choice before we know the facts?

Ignore VW's fix and drive it as-is without the change? When I bought my Touareg I also bought from the dealer the longest extended warranty available. If I don't have the fix, the VW dealer has no obligation to honor the warranty. And even if it did choose to honor the warranty, what are the odds VW will continue to manufacture and distribute parts related to un-fixed Gen2's? Again, maybe they will, but no one knows. And shouldn't that risk fall to VW, the proven wrongdoer, and not its consumers?

Sell now? Sure, I could. And take a substantial bath. You keep talking about mythical buyers at inflated prices, plus some $2000 premium you made up. They don't exist. The only buyers out there are the "buy-low, sell-high" crowd who are looking to arbitrage.

So, AZ, enjoy your position in the catbird's seat. For the rest of us, this deal sucks.

 

[az7000']

AZ, how nice for you that this proposal fits your needs so perfectly. For many of us, it doesn't.

Would you agree they are taking care of the overseas military folks you asked about above where you called me cruel?

And have you read where they are extending our factory warranty for gen 2 3.0's until the fix or buy back then extending it significantly?