Status hearing w/ Judge is F 12/16 - check this link for transcript of meeting
- Thread starter MellyWelly
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pwe312
Well-known member
Let's not forget VW, the EPA, & the lawyers are the bad guys here, not each other.
The 2.0s got $5k - $10k but the 3.0s are worth 2x - 2.5x as much (Golf vs. Touareg and A3 vs A8).
So my guess would be $10k to $25K for compensation.
The 2.0s got $5k - $10k but the 3.0s are worth 2x - 2.5x as much (Golf vs. Touareg and A3 vs A8).
So my guess would be $10k to $25K for compensation.
bizzle
Veteran Member
The compensation should be around the same, not a multiple of whatever the 2.0 settlement offered.
MBQ
Veteran Member
Should? Or you mean"would"?
I think it depends on what they are compensating you for. If it is for lying about the "clean air" then I think it would be about the same. But I think most of the compensation is for the depreciation hit that the cars took which would have to be a multiple of the 2.0 settlement just based on simple percentages.
Mr. Furious
Veteran Member
Yep. It seems logical that they would use the same formula - clean trade value as of 9/15 x whatever the 2.0 settlement % was, and since these vehicles were more valuable, the restitution amount would be more.
I don't think it should be multiples, or orders of magnitude, but it should be more.
The 2.0L restitution was based off of 20% of the 9/15 clean trade in value + $2986 (or so, I can't recall the actual number), or $5100, whichever was greater. So in theory the restitution for the 3.0L will be greater than the 2.0L vehicles, but probably not linearly scaled with MSRP/clean trade value.
TdiSandiego
Well-known member
Wasnt it already announced clean retail plus state taxes plus the $720 owner fee, all we are waiting for is announcement on restitution for the 3.0.
They announced the same thing early on for the 2.0L settlement; what they've released so far is the DOJ decree stating the bare minimum of what VAG must do to compensate owners. The 2.0L class action settlement was much better (read: more money to owners) than what the DOJ decreed minimum was.
We are waiting for details on the 3.0L class action settlement, which will hopefully be more lucrative than the 3.0L DOJ decree (just like the 2.0L class action settlement was)
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Think of it this way:
The department of justice (DOJ) is telling VW that you must pay owners at least "$X" for a buyback.
The class action attorneys are doing their best to make sure VW pays the owners more than "$X".
The ending payment for buybacks on 3.0L vehicles will be (assuming its the same style as the 2.0L's):
(car value) + (restitution amount) = "$Y", which must be greater than or equal to "$X".
We don't know yet what they will pick for (car value); it could be retail, it could be trade-in, and it could be from September or November 2015 (likely november, since that is stated in the DOJ documents).
We also don't know what/how they will calculate the (restitution amount).
What we do know is that "$Y" has to be at least equal to "$X", and has a high likelihood of being greater than "$X". How much greater is the question, and that's why people are speculating and these SUV's are flying off of dealer's lots.
The department of justice (DOJ) is telling VW that you must pay owners at least "$X" for a buyback.
The class action attorneys are doing their best to make sure VW pays the owners more than "$X".
The ending payment for buybacks on 3.0L vehicles will be (assuming its the same style as the 2.0L's):
(car value) + (restitution amount) = "$Y", which must be greater than or equal to "$X".
We don't know yet what they will pick for (car value); it could be retail, it could be trade-in, and it could be from September or November 2015 (likely november, since that is stated in the DOJ documents).
We also don't know what/how they will calculate the (restitution amount).
What we do know is that "$Y" has to be at least equal to "$X", and has a high likelihood of being greater than "$X". How much greater is the question, and that's why people are speculating and these SUV's are flying off of dealer's lots.
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And as a final thought, on the subject of 3.0L arbitrage (I posted this in a different thread, but has a lot of relevance here):
Speculating on the 3.0L cars is very risky. We only know what the bare minimum is that VW must pay. We don't know how much they will pay. These Q7's and Touregs are not selling at drastically lower prices than their 2015 NADA clean retail values from November. Anyone purchasing these to flip is, in my opinion, taking a much higher risk than a 2.0L car, especially because of the capital investment required.
Buy at your own risk, and don't cry here when VW completely screws the 3.0L class!
Speculating on the 3.0L cars is very risky. We only know what the bare minimum is that VW must pay. We don't know how much they will pay. These Q7's and Touregs are not selling at drastically lower prices than their 2015 NADA clean retail values from November. Anyone purchasing these to flip is, in my opinion, taking a much higher risk than a 2.0L car, especially because of the capital investment required.
Buy at your own risk, and don't cry here when VW completely screws the 3.0L class!
ccbsecu
Veteran Member
The 3.0 settlement is different in that it includes several items that were never addressed in the 2.0 (Taxes, Fees, etc). This has not yet been defined or formally approved however; but it is specified in the settlement language.
bizzle
Veteran Member
I agree with how you are thinking about it. I was responding to the post above mine that stated 2.0s got $5-$10K, 3.0s are worth ~3x as much so should be seeing $10-25K. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say a safe one would be closer to a few thousand more.
I would be amazed and happy for any of you who get more than the car was ever sold for, but realistically thinking about it that's not likely to happen.
I meant it as "likely to be." If the 2.0 restitution was 20% then the 3.0 restitution is likely to be 20%. That might result in a few thousand extra dollars, but not 2-3x the amount of dollars.
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Well 20% of $20k is $4k, and 20% of $40k is $8k or 2x the amount.
bizzle
Veteran Member
Thank you for the math lesson.
bird67
Veteran Member
Welcome back, Bizzle. Didn't you swear off this discussion? You have good points to make, but you sure get cranky.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
VW has only itself to blame for any of that.
Shouldn't have built emission control systems that cheated in the first place. Failing that, shouldn't have denied it when presented with the evidence. Failing that, shouldn't have opposed the regulators with every turn. Failing that, they shouldn't have come up with a seemingly unwieldy and inflexible system for arranging the buybacks which seems to have no "edit" or "undo" functions. And why is the Canadian equivalent taking SO long?
On top of all this ... They shouldn't have used the Bosch CP4 injector pump, either. Failing that, they shouldn't have blamed their customers when they started failing.
I stayed away from the common-rail TDI (and in fact, all "clean diesels" - other manufacturers have had plenty of their own troubles) because my engineering opinion was that they were too complex for their own good.
I'm done with VW. We still have a 2011 Golf TDI in the family (my dad originally bought it), but it's getting bought back as soon as the Canadian buyback process gets sorted out. Both four-wheeled contraptions in my driveway are FiatChrysler, and despite all the seeming hatred of FCA by so-called consumer advocates, they have both been fine and the local dealer seems to be pretty good. Oil changes are cheap. No turbochargers, no HPFPs, no DPFs, no MAF sensors (neither Chrysler or Fiat use them!), no direct injectors, no EGR. The gasoline engines use a little bit more fuel than a comparable diesel would ... but it's not worth the aggravation.
Shouldn't have built emission control systems that cheated in the first place. Failing that, shouldn't have denied it when presented with the evidence. Failing that, shouldn't have opposed the regulators with every turn. Failing that, they shouldn't have come up with a seemingly unwieldy and inflexible system for arranging the buybacks which seems to have no "edit" or "undo" functions. And why is the Canadian equivalent taking SO long?
On top of all this ... They shouldn't have used the Bosch CP4 injector pump, either. Failing that, they shouldn't have blamed their customers when they started failing.
I stayed away from the common-rail TDI (and in fact, all "clean diesels" - other manufacturers have had plenty of their own troubles) because my engineering opinion was that they were too complex for their own good.
I'm done with VW. We still have a 2011 Golf TDI in the family (my dad originally bought it), but it's getting bought back as soon as the Canadian buyback process gets sorted out. Both four-wheeled contraptions in my driveway are FiatChrysler, and despite all the seeming hatred of FCA by so-called consumer advocates, they have both been fine and the local dealer seems to be pretty good. Oil changes are cheap. No turbochargers, no HPFPs, no DPFs, no MAF sensors (neither Chrysler or Fiat use them!), no direct injectors, no EGR. The gasoline engines use a little bit more fuel than a comparable diesel would ... but it's not worth the aggravation.
az7000'
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- 2012 Jetta TDI (gone), 2014 Passat TDI (gone), 2014 Touareg TDI (Amazing!)
Just Announced, will we learn the 3.0 fate soon?
Business
Volkswagen confirms $4.3 billion U.S. settlement over diesel emissions
By David Shepardson,Reuters 55 minutes ago
By David Shepardson
DETROIT (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG confirmed Tuesday it has negotiated a $4.3 billion concrete draft settlement with U.S. regulators to resolve its diesel emissions issues and plans to plead guilty to criminal misconduct as part of the civil and criminal settlement.
Volkswagen said with the addition of the fine, the automaker's diesel costs are now set to exceed the nearly 18.2 billion euros ($19.2 billion) it has set aside to handle the problem. VW also said it will face oversight by an independent monitor over the next three years.
Reuters reported earlier the company's supervisory board is set to meet on Wednesday to approve a civil and criminal settlement with the U.S. Justice Department over the automaker's diesel emissions scandal. VW said the supervisory board and the management board would meet Tuesday or possibly Wednesday to approve the deal.
VW is expected to plead guilty as part of the settlement as early as Wednesday, a source familiar with matter said.
The company declined to comment.
VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software in hundreds of thousands of U.S. diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner than they were on the road, and that as many as 11 million vehicles could have similar software installed worldwide.
On Monday, a VW executive, the second VW employee charged by U.S. prosecutors, was accused of conspiracy to defraud the United States over the company's emissions cheating and the automaker was charged with concealing the cheating from regulators.
Volkswagen had previously agreed to spend up to $17.5 billion in the United States to resolve claims by U.S. regulators, owners and dealers and offered to buy back nearly 500,000 polluting vehicles.
Much of the company's senior management departed following the scandal, including chief executive Martin Winterkorn.
VW Group said on Tuesday it had record sales in 2016 of 10.3 million vehicles, including a 12 percent increase in December. That figure should put VW ahead of Japanese rival Toyota Motor Co <7203.T> as the world's largest car producer by volume for the year.
Business
Volkswagen confirms $4.3 billion U.S. settlement over diesel emissions
By David Shepardson,Reuters 55 minutes ago
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DETROIT (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG confirmed Tuesday it has negotiated a $4.3 billion concrete draft settlement with U.S. regulators to resolve its diesel emissions issues and plans to plead guilty to criminal misconduct as part of the civil and criminal settlement.
Volkswagen said with the addition of the fine, the automaker's diesel costs are now set to exceed the nearly 18.2 billion euros ($19.2 billion) it has set aside to handle the problem. VW also said it will face oversight by an independent monitor over the next three years.
Reuters reported earlier the company's supervisory board is set to meet on Wednesday to approve a civil and criminal settlement with the U.S. Justice Department over the automaker's diesel emissions scandal. VW said the supervisory board and the management board would meet Tuesday or possibly Wednesday to approve the deal.
VW is expected to plead guilty as part of the settlement as early as Wednesday, a source familiar with matter said.
The company declined to comment.
VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software in hundreds of thousands of U.S. diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner than they were on the road, and that as many as 11 million vehicles could have similar software installed worldwide.
On Monday, a VW executive, the second VW employee charged by U.S. prosecutors, was accused of conspiracy to defraud the United States over the company's emissions cheating and the automaker was charged with concealing the cheating from regulators.
Volkswagen had previously agreed to spend up to $17.5 billion in the United States to resolve claims by U.S. regulators, owners and dealers and offered to buy back nearly 500,000 polluting vehicles.
Much of the company's senior management departed following the scandal, including chief executive Martin Winterkorn.
VW Group said on Tuesday it had record sales in 2016 of 10.3 million vehicles, including a 12 percent increase in December. That figure should put VW ahead of Japanese rival Toyota Motor Co <7203.T> as the world's largest car producer by volume for the year.
MBQ
Veteran Member
I am confused. What's the 4.3 billion for? What's the "civil" part this time?
az7000'
Veteran Member
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I wish I knew, I have heard buzz that they are trying to finalize before Jan 20th...
tjsadler
Veteran Member
I believe this agreement is addressing the civil/criminal fraud charges against the company and its executives by the US Govt. I believe it is separate from all the consumer/EPA settlements.
Basically it would seem that if you are a huge rich corporation you can buy your way out of prosecution. Must be nice! Good luck trying that when your taxes get audited next time...
You - "Here's $100. Let's just forgive and forget and I'll make a public apology on top of that!"
IRS - "OK now you're going to jail for tax evasion, paying huge fines, and I'm calling the FBI to have you charged with attempted bribery!"
Basically it would seem that if you are a huge rich corporation you can buy your way out of prosecution. Must be nice! Good luck trying that when your taxes get audited next time...
You - "Here's $100. Let's just forgive and forget and I'll make a public apology on top of that!"
IRS - "OK now you're going to jail for tax evasion, paying huge fines, and I'm calling the FBI to have you charged with attempted bribery!"
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MBQ
Veteran Member
2.8 billion criminal fine, 1.5 billion civil penalties. OK.
And there is a discount.
And there is a discount.
chadbag
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One major point of difference between this and the GM and Toyota cases of the last few years. VW is pleading guilty to criminal conduct. GM and Toyota were not made to admit guilt to anything.
So this is basically a pleas bargain, where VW agrees to plead guilty, and then pay a fine as punishment.
So this is basically a pleas bargain, where VW agrees to plead guilty, and then pay a fine as punishment.
January 31st was the date the court set for a draft class action settlement being presented, but the requirement is that it is presented to the court (judge). We may be waiting a while yet to see details...
From one of the attorneys working on the settlement in response to my email this morning about what to expect from today's court appearance:
As I said in my email below, all the document pertaining to the 3.0L settlement will be filed today (probably late in the evening). Among those documents, I believe an executive summary of the settlement, which details the benefits class members will receive, will be available on the website. In any case, I will be available tomorrow to answer any settlement-related questions you have, so feel free to email me or call me.
The documents will be posted on the settlement website https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/, and also the Court’s website set up specifically for this case http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl. Given that it will be a late filing tonight, I would suspect that the documents will not be uploaded to the websites until later tomorrow afternoon.
As I said in my email below, all the document pertaining to the 3.0L settlement will be filed today (probably late in the evening). Among those documents, I believe an executive summary of the settlement, which details the benefits class members will receive, will be available on the website. In any case, I will be available tomorrow to answer any settlement-related questions you have, so feel free to email me or call me.
The documents will be posted on the settlement website https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/, and also the Court’s website set up specifically for this case http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl. Given that it will be a late filing tonight, I would suspect that the documents will not be uploaded to the websites until later tomorrow afternoon.
DanB36
Veteran Member
Dan,
I posted on the other thread. But your numbers don't include what looks to be $1,500 per vehicle from Bosch. And, if VW will give owners another $500 if performance is impacted. I don't see anyway VW doesn't pay the $500.
Also there is still a very slight chance VW will miss the solution deadline and be forced into the buyback of all 3.0L
I posted on the other thread. But your numbers don't include what looks to be $1,500 per vehicle from Bosch. And, if VW will give owners another $500 if performance is impacted. I don't see anyway VW doesn't pay the $500.
Also there is still a very slight chance VW will miss the solution deadline and be forced into the buyback of all 3.0L
DanB36
Veteran Member
No, I didn't see anything about Bosch in the article I linked, and the documents themselves aren't up yet of course. I'll want to see the payment tables, as I'm sure we all will, as well as an indication of what happens to recent buyers (since I just bought my Q5 a couple of weeks ago). But it should all be in the documents when they're posted, hopefully later today.