Status hearing w/ Judge is F 12/16 - check this link for transcript of meeting

bird67

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This reaffirms my cynicism. I said above that VW's $millions to CARB/EPA bought it CARB/EPA's complicity. I said that for those $millions, CARB/EPA will now approve the same Gen2 "fix" VW has submitted twice and was rejected twice, rationalizing for the public that the $millions for "environmental remediation funds" will do more for the environment than than removing 63,000 technically illegal 3.0s from the road.

Now Breyer warns that CARB/EPA fix may not be approved until 2018. How does that make any sense?

It doesn't.

First, it means that our "coal rolling" behemoths will continue to roll coal for at least another year.**. I thought the priority was to make the pollution stop???

Second, IIRC it took CARB/EPA only a few weeks to review VW's Gen2 3.0 fix the first two times VW presented it. This time CARB/EPA needs six months or a year??? Remember too, VW only has a very short window (see Appendix B page 23 of Tuesday's agreement) to submit its proposed fix. VW would agree to this short timetable only if it (a) had a fix in mind AND (b) believed CARB/EPA would approve the fix (thanks to VW's $millions going CARB/EPA).

So what does this accomplish? Pollution reduction? Ummmmm...no. Our cars stay on the road, rolling coal into the atmosphere until the fix is APPROVED in 2018. And based on what we've seen with the 2.0s, it is impossible to have any faith that the actual "fixes" will be completed before 2019. So we'll all be contributing to premature death, asthma and emphysema for two more years, while the CARB/EPA checks from VW will long since have been cashed.**

Think about this - your 2013 Gen2 3.0 will have been on the road for six years (seven if you bought early in the model year) before it gets the "fix." No wonder VW, CARB/EPA, and the plaintiff steering committee don't give a damn about longevity!

Consumers ---> screwed. I feel badly for any Gen2 3.0 owner who needs to get out of his TDI, due to family concerns, job changes, financial worry, or any other good reason why people need to sell. The value of our Gen2 TDIs is in the toilet, and with this cloud lasting into 2019, grab your ankles if you need to sell.

To put in words our president-elect might use, this is a rigged deal, we're getting screwed. Bad, bad people.

**I know we aren't rolling coal and that our 3.0 emissions do negligible harm. I'm using hyperbole to make a point. Work with me, people.
 
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pwe312

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More info:

Breyer said the final agreement must be filed with the court by Jan. 31, and he expects to hold a Feb. 14 hearing to approve the deal.

Half of the compensation will be paid at the time Breyer gives final approval of the settlement.

Happy Valentine's Day I guess...
 

pwe312

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These timelines just don't make sense. They've been close to a deal since middle of November. Now they need over a month to finalize the agreement??? They already have a template from the 2.0 deal and supposedly agreed on a deal. Then the court needs 2 weeks to review the agreement?

VW has to start submitting Gen 2 fixes in Feb 2017, but the agreement won't be approved until Feb 14. But then fixes may not be approved until 2018.

Is everyone trying to drag this out as long as possible?
 
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bird67

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More info:

Breyer said the final agreement must be filed with the court by Jan. 31, and he expects to hold a Feb. 14 hearing to approve the deal.

Half of the compensation will be paid at the time Breyer gives final approval of the settlement.

Happy Valentine's Day to CARB/EPA guess...
FTFY, PWE. Since there is only one agreement so far, and it has nothing to do with consumers, when Breyer says "half of the compensation will be paid" he is referring to compensation to CARB/EPA, not to consumers. Consumer compensation hasn't been determined, and there is no settlement agreement with consumer class counsel yet. So I fixed this for you to say it will be a happy Valentine's Day for CARB/EPA, and yet another day of teeth-gnashing for Gen2 3.0 owners.

EDIT: I was wrong about the above. I own that mistake. The transcript saying half the compensation will be paid at approval referenced payments to consumers, not CARB/EPA. I regret and correct my error.

Is everyone trying to drag this out as long as possible?

From Judge Breyer's mouth:

The process to determine fix approval for the various Generation II models will take most of 2017, or perhaps longer, but it will be finite.

It didn't take CARB/EPA nearly that long to reject VW's fix the first two times...
 
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TdiSandiego

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From reading that transcript, it is saying that owners that sold after the sept date will be compensated as well. That to me means they are going to offer restitution as well as what was talked about earlier in the week regarding nov values, taxes, and owner fee.
 

speedrye

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Haha, 750,000 claims on what, 470,000 cars? Screw the 85% fix/buyback target, they're going for 160%!
 

TdiSandiego

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Did anyone else notice that the judge used Sept 18 as the cutoff for owners to be elegible and the documents from Tues used NADA coming from the Nov value?
The only thing I saw about the sept 18th date was that people that sold after that date would get compensation as well. People that bought after that date get paid also thou.
 

SemperFido

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The only thing I saw about the sept 18th date was that people that sold after that date would get compensation as well. People that bought after that date get paid also thou.
Right but seems strange to me that he used the Sept date but they are basing the value on November. In other words if the 3.0 compensation is associated with Sept when the 2.0 story broke then why is the value of the buyback tied to November after the value was effected by the scandle. I get it that people who bought after that get paid too. And yes I know they didn't call out the 3.0s till Nov.
 

showdown 42

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If the deal is right for my Gen#1,I''ll be ready to take a 2015 or 16 off anybodies hand when the time comes. Has to be low mileage and in great condition. Let's see what happens,I love the car and will need another after the trade in.
 

ccbsecu

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I have a CLEAN 2013 Exe Treg, front has been clear wrapped, and its DPF/SCR free if you're interested....
 

CSR Penfab

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My 2016 T-reg is on a four year lease that comes up in late 2019. I figure by then they'll have this cluster f*ck squared away and I may have a heavily warranted Tdi ready to be bought out from lease. I never would've thought they'd give VW so much leeway and time. If I had bought this car vs. lease, I would be beyond pissed.
 

S2000_guy

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Look it up.

I believe the requirement is that the DEF last from one scheduled maintenance to the next. The 10k interval is VW's choice.
 

flargabarg

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It has since been dropped, but by the time it was the cheat was already in place. Volkswagen also didn't want to shorten the scheduled service interval or give up space for a bigger tank.

Also have any of you ever been involved in a big class action case? When they go to court they can last a decade or more. This is quick for our justice system, believe it or not.
 

bird67

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It has since been dropped, but by the time it was the cheat was already in place. Volkswagen also didn't want to shorten the scheduled service interval or give up space for a bigger tank.

Also have any of you ever been involved in a big class action case? When they go to court they can last a decade or more. This is quick for our justice system, believe it or not.
The latter is true...but it doesn't help consumer trust or confidence to have this level of insane secrecy about every detail. It smacks clearly of back-room deals, wink-wink arrangements, and "the customers are too stupid to understand what's good for them." Every time I read the self-congratulations and back-slapping among stakeholders I think how incredibly tone-deaf they all are.
 

pwe312

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If they don't offer buybacks to Gen 2 owners, significant compensation should be given to all of you that owned the car as of Sept or Nov 2015. That should all go to you, not any new owner if you sell your car (I think the 2.0s have to split the compensation with new owners). That will at least let the Gen 2 owners sell and get out of the cars.

The new owners will be paying a reduced market price and are not hurt by the scandal. They should not benefit any further. Vw can figure out some other compensation or incentive to get new owners to fix their car, but the sept/Nov 2015 owners need to be made whole and more.
 

bizzle

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"@FTC lawyer praises progress on @VW 2.0 liter settlement but says there have been some bumps on the road"
Not sure the forum readers will agree that they are just bumps!
Sounds like herpies...thanks but no thanks! :eek:

Consumers ---> screwed. I feel badly for any Gen2 3.0 owner who needs to get out of his TDI, due to family concerns, job changes, financial worry, or any other good reason why people need to sell. The value of our Gen2 TDIs is in the toilet, and with this cloud lasting into 2019, grab your ankles if you need to sell.
VW has a few years to come up with a fix for the 2.0s. In practical terms it means that the people waiting for the fix aren't going to see any money for a while. Everyone else is doing just fine (relatively speaking, I acknowledge some people are dissatisfied with the terms) except for those previously alluded to herpetic lesions.

It's difficult to understand how people are feeling screwed by this (although I understand the sentiment).

If you're in a situation that you need to get out of the car but you aren't going to be eligible for a buyback, you'll get owner's compensation that presumably will take up the slack from any lost value.

There are going to be some people who need to get out right now, and that's going to be a painful decision between cutting ties prematurely or waiting a few more months, but there will always be some problematic fringe examples regardless of how this plays out. There may even be some mechanism that pays out based on ownership date rather than current ownership, which would give people an early out option and still be able to recoup some amount of the lost value.

If you want a buyback and can't get one, that might feel like being screwed. But since those customers are going to be getting a hefty settlement portion before they have to submit to a fix, at that point free money for nothing (other than one's personal level of feeling victimized, which I'm not minimizing in any way, shape, or form), they are actually being treated better than similarly situated 2.0 owners.

Being screwed would seem to look like no one getting any buy-back option and no one getting any restitution money, and subject to a forthcoming fix. But that's not how this is looking to shape up unless I've missed some info.
 

flargabarg

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The latter is true...but it doesn't help consumer trust or confidence to have this level of insane secrecy about every detail. It smacks clearly of back-room deals, wink-wink arrangements, and "the customers are too stupid to understand what's good for them." Every time I read the self-congratulations and back-slapping among stakeholders I think how incredibly tone-deaf they all are.
Imagine how wound up people would be getting if they saw some of the versions that the settlement has gone through. I'm certain there have been some real stinkers. It would be nice for them to be more open about status but I can understand the stance they are at.
 

bizzle

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I don't have a 3.0 so I haven't been following this settlement proceeding very closely. I read through that last few pages, though, and it appears some of you owners who have been following the proceedings are indicating that Judge Breyer stated half the compensation will be paid to owners once he approves the final order.

This differs dramatically from 2.0 owners who opt for the fix in that they have to wait for it to be offered before they obtain their compensation.

My prediction for the 2.0 is that a fix for older generations will never materialize thereby leaving owners to either sell their vehicles back or keep them sans compensation.

3.0 owners will never be in that situation if the pwe312 and bird67 are accurately quoting the judge as mandating that half of the compensation money is to be paid immediately. I haven't gone through the documents to fact check post #196. You may have missed that or I could be missing information, but either way that's the information I was basing my comments upon.
 

bird67

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VW has a few years to come up with a fix for the 2.0s. In practical terms it means that the people waiting for the fix aren't going to see any money for a while. But every 2.0 owner has three choices - no fix, fix, or buyback. Gen2 3.0 owners don't have that choice. We are forced to wait until The Fix is approved, or not...which will not be known until 2018...not exactly "a few months Everyone else is doing just fine because they were give a full measure of choices, which Gen2 3.0ers were denied(relatively speaking, I acknowledge some people are dissatisfied with the terms) except for those previously alluded to herpetic lesions.

It's difficult to understand how people are feeling screwed by this (although I understand the sentiment). You 2.0ers have choices, one of which allows you to get out immediately. We Gen2 3.0ers do not.

If you're in a situation that you need to get out of the car but you aren't going to be eligible for a buyback, you'll get owner's compensation that presumably will take up the slack from any lost value. You really ought to read the actual agreement before asserting things like this, because it's not true

There are going to be some people who need to get out right now, and that's going to be a painful decision between cutting ties prematurely or waiting a few more months, but there will always be some problematic fringe examples regardless of how this plays out I'm sure our active-duty military friends will be happy to know you consider them "fringe"There may even be some mechanism that pays out based on ownership date rather than current ownership, which would give people an early out option and still be able to recoup some amount of the lost value.there "may" be a current mechanism? What are you talking about?

If you want a buyback and can't get one, that might feel like being screwed. But since those customers are going to be getting a hefty settlement portion before they have to submit to a fix, at that point free money for nothing (other than one's personal level of feeling victimized, which I'm not minimizing in any way, shape, or form), they are actually being treated better than similarly situated 2.0 owners. Again, read the document. If you can figure out what the numbers and details are, please - enlighten us

Being screwed would seem to look like no one getting any buy-back option and no one getting any restitution money agreedand subject to a forthcoming fix. But that's not how this is looking to shape up unless I've missed some info.
. You have, we all are...because we can't be told anything whatsoever, and thus can't make any plans

We've been told that one-half of "substantial compensation" may be paid in the next few months. In negotiation terms I believe this occured because of how long it will take for VW to get its promised "fix" in the hands of CARB/EPA and for CARB/EPA to test it. The San Francisco court stakeholders knew that Gen2 3.0ers would storm the gates if nothing whatsoever happened for another 18 months, so they put in this half-compensation crap.

But as Cabrera and others have said, it's always the details where the devil lurks. If you accept the half-money, are you obligated to accept The Fix? What about those of us who don't want The Fix? What about those who want to sell back? If they accept half-compensation, are they precluded? This is important - because it may turn out The Fix, though approved, creates problems. Too late! You took the half-money!
 

bizzle

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I'm sure our active-duty military friends will be happy to know you consider them "fringe"
I don't appreciate your insinuation here. It should be obvious to anyone that isn't what I said or even remotely close to what the point of that sentence was. If that's the level of discourse you're going to stoop down to, I'm out of the conversation.
 

bird67

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I don't appreciate your insinuation here. It should be obvious to anyone that isn't what I said or even remotely close to what the point of that sentence was. If that's the level of discourse you're going to stoop down to, I'm out of the conversation.
You said "there will always be some problematic fringe examples" after I cited the service folks who have to sell. I'm pointing out that such folks probably don't consider themselves "problematic fringe examples," and marginalizing peoples' real VW deceit-induced problems as "fringe" is pretty dismissive.
 

bizzle

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That's a tortured interpretation of what I wrote.

I'm going to clarify that one sentence and then I'm leaving the discussion because you continue to demonstrate an unwillingness or an incapability of continuing this discussion politely without creating unwarranted, incendiary accusations.


It's a simple aspect of reality that when trying to come up with a resolution that impacts over 60,000 people some of that group are going to fall on the margins of the agreement. That's the nature of a normal population distribution.

That acknowledgement does *not* in any way shape or form marginalize or otherwise dismiss how this scandal impacts people who find themselves on those edges of the agreement and it certainly says nothing about the people themselves despite your clumsy attempt to reinterpret the sentence 180 degrees out from how it would normally be understood.


EDIT: 14Q5TDI, just because me or someone else says something you don't like, that doesn't mean we are insensitive to your situation or uncaring about your family. That said, based on your follow-up responses, my well has run dry. Best of luck to you.
 
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SemperFido

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You said "there will always be some problematic fringe examples" after I cited the service folks who have to sell. I'm pointing out that such folks probably don't consider themselves "problematic fringe examples," and marginalizing peoples' real VW deceit-induced problems as "fringe" is pretty dismissive.
As a recently retired Marine, I did not take his comment about fringe the way you did. I understood the context and to me it makes sense. We are a fringe if you consider the group as a whole. The example of owning an american tdi, while on active duty, in a location considered overseas is even more fringe within the military. I would venture that there are only a handful literally that are in that situation because Hawaii would be the only U.S. location I can think of that would fall into that category. Does that minimize the situation those handfull are In? I don't think so. It is a tough spot and they didn't create that situation, vw did. But i didnt take offense or feel like he was trying to minimize the military or the situations we sometimes find ourselves in. But that's just my opinion.
 
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bird67

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It's just not okay to justify this deal by saying that collateral damage ("fringe") is acceptable. Collateral damage in this instance have names, faces, jobs, homes and mortgages. 14QTI15 shared her story, and there are myriad others who are affected badly by VW' insistence that it has a fix and refusal to offer a buyback option that mirrors that offered to 2.0's owners. If they had, the "fringe" would have to endure neither their collateral damage status nor the scorn of those who expect them to be happy, because "they will get free money for nothing."

I say again. Our class counsel, meaning the steering committee, should not have caved in to VW's refusal to offer a buyback to all 3.0 owners. We should have been offered the choice of (a) buy back, (b) money in exchange for agreeing to submit to the fix, or (c) do nothing and keep driving as-is. By giving away the first option, class counsel has sold us out and allowed VW to extend this into 2018 and beyond. Many of us - 14QT15 as an example - simply don't have the luxury of that much time.

You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet is not a basis upon which to frame this settlement.
 

az7000'

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Please don't run with this down the wrong path. If you lost $2-5k in resale value to your 2.0 that is a huge bummer. You can hang on and get the buy back, drive it, fix it for cash (if there is a fix)or do absolutely nothing and keep driving it into the ground. I believe there will always be a cult following for these and values will rebound in a few years, fixed or not.

We bought a 12 Jetta for $23 OTD almost 3 years ago because that is what we could afford. Once we saw the buy back value we took a calculated risk and bought a 14 Passat for $22,000 OTD after the prices fell before the stock at our hidden Factory buy back used car place, same place as the Jetta. The plan was to get the buyback for the jetta (Wednesday 12/28) and with the fix money own the Passat free and clear, 20,000 miles as of today....

Left the dealership after a recall fix and saw the 14 Touareg TDI with 18K miles there, called and confirmed it was a TDI and in a few days it was ours, $41,000 OTD after the news was well known. Should we have bought it? No. Can we afford it? Sort of... The most expensive car my wife or I ever owned was the Jetta at $23k. We used this "scandal" to flip a few cars and will be financed at about $23,000 into the Touareg. Things are tight with $1200/month car payments right now and insuring 3 cars, this will ease at the end of the week with $11000 in our pockets to make all the payments till the Passat sells and we refi the loan.

Many over extend to buy cars, that is why there are repo men. We never would have bought a $40+K car if we didn't get lucky with the others. If someone is shopping in the Luxury car market I hope an incident like this wouldn't have a big financial effect, if it does maybe that wasn't the car to buy??? Some on here have invested in many 2.0 and 3.0 cars and that is a calculated risk, if it backfires then they can blame themselves.

If the car was a bucket list type thing then so be it and I'm sorry the value dropped so much. I am in the same boat as far as waiting for the unknown. It seems like if a 10-15% drop in value for a $50, $60, or $70k car affects you to the point of hardship the car may not have been right for you... If it is not a financial hardship but just upsetting I believe we will all have better and worse things happen to us, hang in there!

After writing this should I click "Submit Reply"? Sure, this is not directed at anyone personally, just my and only my opinion on some who feel screwed or on the fringe. Pretty much everything we do every day is a calculated risk and we get to make that choice.

Thanks

And yes, VW was wrong.


PS Did you all know Our Judge Breyer has a brother named Justice Breyer? Works in DC? Proud parents I'd imagine!
 
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MBQ

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I'm not following you, I get the war thing, are they stealing 7-10k or are you stealing it from them?

What he meant was, since someone already broke his legs, now it's not such a big deal that the same person slaps his faces:rolleyes:

Makes a lot of sense!
 

KNN

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Pure Speculation here.

How much do you guys think "Substantial Compensation" will be for the non-buyback 3.0l TDI's?

Think it might be based on MSRP or a flat rate?

What would be fair and generous enough for you to get your fix?

10%, 20% of MSRP? More? I think a buyback would have been the best, but I certainly don't mind a bag of cash.
 
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