Status hearing w/ Judge is F 12/16 - check this link for transcript of meeting

DanB36

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This is the DOJ/EPA settlement. The 2-liter settlement consisted of three separate agreements--one with DOJ/EPA, one with FTC, and one with the class. In those settlements, the DOJ/EPA agreement/order was less generous than the FTC and the class settlement, but it's what provided for the penalties for failing to meet deadlines (which have yet to be enforced, but that's another story).
 

bird67

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This is the DOJ/EPA settlement. The 2-liter settlement consisted of three separate agreements--one with DOJ/EPA, one with FTC, and one with the class. In those settlements, the DOJ/EPA agreement/order was less generous than the FTC and the class settlement, but it's what provided for the penalties for failing to meet deadlines (which have yet to be enforced, but that's another story).
A strong point countering point, DanB. We don't yet have the full facts. I still blame all the players in SF for the premature outcry. We have had no information for so long other than the drip-drip-drip of leaks to media.

As to this: “Retail Replacement Value” shall mean, for a given Eligible Vehicle, ... the cost of retail purchase of a comparable replacement vehicle of similar value, condition, and mileage as of November 2, 2015":

Some have noted that 3.0 buybacks are based on retail rather than trade-in. I suspect this reflects the criticisms of the 2.0 buyback calculations. But the date of calculation is November, not September, even though all VW diesel values plummeted when the 2.0 cheat went public.

So this deal giveth "what we want" - retail rather than trade-in - and taketh away from somewhere else - date of valuation - hoping we won't notice. Think of it like buying a new car from a dealer. The dealer will give you what you "want" on your trade-in to make you feel like you won the negotiation, while leaving a lot more of the profit in the price attributed to the new car you purchased.
 

14q7tdi

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Page 23 of Appendix B provides a table reflecting a short window (April-June 2017 depending on which Gen2) for VW to submit its fix to CARB/EPA for approval. I say "short" because VW has gone longer without a fix for the 2.0. The table shows an even earlier date by which VW is "expected" to submit its fix, as early as February 2017 for some Gen2s.
This seems ominous, suggesting great confidence on VW's part that its fix will be approved. Yet VW's "simple software fix" was already rejected, twice, by CARB/EPA, and this short window doesn't give VW much time at all to develop and test the efficacy of a new fix. I believe VW merely intends to resubmit the same fix CARB/EPA already rejected.
What would give VW such great confidence that the result will be different this time, and that CARB/EPA will approve the fix already rejected? Money. Lots and lots of money, flowing directly from VW's pockets to CARB/EPA, bypassing consumers' pockets completely. It's right in the documents.
Watch for approval to sail right through. The press releases are right, sort of - the fix is indeed in.
You nailed it bird. You think after their first 2 software fixes failed, they would have had to prove they can make it work before a settlement was made. Instead, they delay submitting the 3rd attempt at a software fix until after they settle with CARB/EPA. Now magically the 3rd attempt will be accepted and they won't have to buy back the 60k Gen 2 cars.

From their standpoint, $225M to pay off the CARB/EPA saves them $2B. This based on if they had to buyback 60k cars at ~$50k vs. giving 60k people ~$15k restitution. In the end, VW makes out knowing they can't really fix the cars, CARB/EPA makes out by getting paid off and the consumer gets screwed with no buyback.
 

bird67

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I've stated here before that I don't actually know that I would take the buy-back even if it was offered, because the Touareg TDI is such a great vehicle. My preference was, and remains, to leave it "as is".

That's still true. What I dislike about this deal is that we are likely to be left with only two options - keep "as-is" or accept the restitution and submit to the "fix" - rather than three, to include buy-back if the Gen2 "fix" - which I expect to be approved now that CARB/EPA have been paid off - turns out to be bad for performance/reliability/longevity. That's where I feel class counsel has failed us.

Meanwhile, I'm putting my money where my mouth is - my Touareg is at the dealer as we speak undergoing the full Monty 40k service. No way could I let a vehicle of this quality go under-, let alone un-, maintained.
 

SemperFido

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I seem to remember something about clean retail value in the 2.0 settlement. But because the trade in value plus restitution added up to more than retail value the court was OK with it. Wonder if they are going the same route? I'll try to find that info today.
 

Tarbe

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bbailey@baileyglasser.com
lsarko@kellerrohrback.com
mhausfeld@hausfeld.com
PGeller@rgrdlaw.com
steve@hbsslaw.com

Here are 5 to get you started if you feel as I do that the steering committee failed the consumers.
I just sent an email to all 5 of the above, asking them to consider how the NADA values of our vehicle had already been materially impacted by the scandal by early November (values calculated from 11/2/15).

I suggested the value from 9/1/15 should be used instead.
 
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bird67

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i just sent an email to all 5 of the above, asking them to consider how the nada values of our vehicle had already been materially impacted by the scandal by early november (values calculated from 11/2/15).

I suggested the value from 9/1/15 should be used instead.
ftfy.;)
 

az7000'

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I've stated here before that I don't actually know that I would take the buy-back even if it was offered, because the Touareg TDI is such a great vehicle. My preference was, and remains, to leave it "as is".

My thoughts also, however I will probably use some of the restitution to get a Kerma tune, you get the box and can go back and forth for emissions testing (not in Flagstaff yet), selling, or service/warranty appointments. I would hope the "fix" comes with an extended warranty...
 

LowSeas

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I received the following response to my email from yesterday to PSC member Michael Hausfeld:

I am writing in response to your inquiry regarding the VW 3.0-liter settlement. We ask that owners of 3.0-liter vehicles please remain patient, as the settlement negotiations are still confidential, and the details of the settlement have not yet been released. There should be more information available in the coming days.

Thank you,
Braden
 

LowSeas

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I've decided to pursue separate legal action. Done with VW and don't trust them.

Please keep this thread informed with that as it is something I am also considering and I am sure others will as well if the news we heard yesterday holds true.
 

bird67

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Please keep this thread informed with that as it is something I am also considering and I am sure others will as well if the news we heard yesterday holds true.
+1, and I suspect that the leverage of any such claims independent of the class action would be strengthened by greater numbers, so your counsel would probably encourage you to share the intel with other prospective "opt-outs".
 

cadwelljames

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Spoke direct to law clerk at Lieff Cabraser and direct to attorney at Motley Rice. Silent on details until official release on Thursday. Reading this thread, I don't understand calculating buy-back amounts for 3.0 Liter TDIs after model year 2012. Doesn't available docs show no buyback on 2013 or later? Do I understand correctly that VWG has until May 2020 to offer a fix to Gen 2+? My 2014 A6 TDI warranty expires way before May 2020, so big gap in coverage without aftermarket warranty extension (which reads no coverage for exhaust systems). If I refuse to accept fix on grounds it will change the car I thought I bought, is this grounds for buy back on opt out law suit? Neither attorney would comment on this question until after Thursday. I plan to opt out and sue. This thread is very important to bring forth all planning to sue in unity as a group or class. One would think Lieff Cabraser has all they need to win, unless they opted out!!! Don't get me wrong, I like the car I just want options - primarily durability guarantee and not charge me if I buy contaminated fuel, but without my knowledge. Comments?
 
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bird67

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My uninformed assessment of how we got here

In the dearth of actual information, and until the tell-all books come out a few years from now, we're left to speculate what is going on and how we got to Tuesday's agreement. I would like to offer my uniformed assessment.

1. Breyer's pressure to settle cannot be understated. While his public statements are bland, behind the scenes he is making it VERY clear to stakeholders he does not want to try this case. He has immense power in this regard to make it difficult for whichever stakeholders he feels is impeding settlement.

2. Everyone knows big $ must change hands. VW wants to minimize, naturally. Shrewdly, to pay $millions rather than $billions, it is targeting its money as offers that cannot be refused. Thus, $millions for CARB/EPA and public-appeasing distractions like "environmental remediation funds."

3. Steering committee has heard our demands that all 3.0 owners be offered buy-back option. VW, wishing to pay $millions rather than $billions, refused. This became a, if not the, huge impediment to settlement.

4. Through strategic leaks VW has "informed" the press that it has an easy software fix for Gen2 3.0s. It says it's already done, and can roll it out immediately. Steering committee is unconvinced, since VW's previous two fixes were rejected by CARB/EPA and, well, it's VW. Standoff.

5. Breyer applies more pressure. Compromise agreement results, released Tuesday. It says, in essence:

- "VW, you claim you have a fix you can roll out immediately? Fine. We expect it in CARB/EPA's hands by February 2017, and it better be final by April 2017* [Table, Appendix B at 23]."

- "VW, if you are telling the truth, and you have a fix CARB/EPA will approve for the Gen2 vehicles, we're not going to make you offer buy-backs on those. You will, though, have to pay a bribe to get >85% of the Gen2 owners to submit to your fix."

- "VW, if you are not telling the truth, and you cannot deliver by the deadline a fix that CARB/EPA will approve for the Gen2 vehicles, you are going to offer buy-backs to all Gen2 owners at November 2015 retail."

This is how the compromise was reached. The steering committee, faced with pressure from Breyer plus VWs intransigence on Gen2 buybacks based on insistence that the fix would "work", had to cave in and give VW a short window to deliver on its representations.

Which leads to my ultimate cynicism about the deal. Whether we get a Gen2 buy-back option is 100% in CARB/EPA's hands. These are the same hands that just accepted $millions from VW. I suspect there is "an understanding" that, by accepting VW's $millions, CARB/EPA has agreed that VW's fix will be acceptable, thus saving VW $billions. CARB/EPA rationalizes this because it knows that, in the big scheme, 63,000 Gen2 3.0s produce little dirty fumes anyway, and the "remediation funds" will be used to clean more air than buying back Gen2 3.0s would.

As to the Gen2 3.0 owners? By definition, since we own 2013+ Porsches, Audis and VWs, we're rich, we can afford it, right? :cool:

*These dates on the table differ depending on which Gen2 is involved...
 

CSR Penfab

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I agree as well. VW is doing a might great job of arse f*cking thousands of high end buyers for Gen 2 3.0's. Well done VW! I hope your fix fails miserably and the warranty work needed for a shoddy fix lingers for years and runs you into the ground.
 

jking11

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More thoughts...for what it's worth

I think thoughts that the EPA/CARB might cave on testing are wrong. Both of them looked bad when University students discovered that the testing by both had missed these emissions issues. With all the attention that this scandal has created I feel confident there will be tests done by independent, outside parties to validate the fix. I have read of organizations that have bought VW diesel's as test cars to write/blog about as this process works forward.

Right now, I think time is on our side for those of us hoping for a buyback. The timeline VW has been given is super fast. They have a solid record of missing all deadlines for all models and I believe all proposed fixes for all TDI's to date have been rejected. The engineers who have been working this problem for years are now committed to a solution in 8 weeks, and they know the solution will be scrutinized.

For those of you talking about hiring lawyers, I believe there are old threads that pondered hiring a lawyer and not joining the class. I believe consensus seemed to be that the costs of hiring a lawyer will far exceed any benefit gained beyond that of the settlement.
 
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LowSeas

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I think thoughts that the EPA/CARB might cave on testing are wrong. Both of them looked bad when University students discovered that the testing by both had missed these emissions issues. With all the attention that this scandal has created I feel confident there will be tests done by independent, outside parties to validate the fix. I have read of organizations that have bought VW diesel's as test cars to write/blog about as this process works forward.

Right now, I think time is on our side for those of us hoping for a buyback. The timeline VW has been given is super fast. They have a solid record of missing all deadlines for all models and I believe all proposed fixes for all TDI's to date have been rejected. The engineers who have been working this problem for years are now committed to a solution in 8 weeks, and they know the solution will be scrutinized.

For those of you talking about hiring lawyers, I believe there are old threads that pondered hiring a lawyer and not joining the class. I believe consensus seemed to be that the costs of hiring a lawyer will far exceed any benefit gained beyond that of the settlement.

I see your points and tend to agree that the fix will be tested by multiple organizations independent of CARB and the EPA. However, my concerns is that they have a fix that will meet the regulatory concerns with acceptable impact to performance and economy, but any impact to longevity will remain unknown. It is unlikely that the independent parties would be able to test for that. Maybe CARB/EPA are willing to overlook this now that they have $225mm knowing it likely won't come to light for a few years.

Maybe I am just a skeptic.

Anyone know when to expect news today?
 

pwe312

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11am pst...

With a high chance that it will be postponed for 4 hours, then to the next day, then 2 weeks later for a "final" settlement.
 

flargabarg

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Unless someone is live tweeting we'll probably see something around 1PM PST.
 

nobodyhome17

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Is it possible for VW's "fix" to be approved which is not 50 compliant? I.e. too avoid the buyback requirement in the non-Cali's?

Our A3 goes back next Friday and now waiting to hear about our Q5. I the Q5, but I do NOT want to give up my mileage and am afraid any "fixes" will impact the vehicle's reliability.

And how sure are we that there are not other cheats that haven't been discovered that will not be compounded by any fix? There are the transmission cheats that may be impacted by any fix, once again goes to long term reliability of any fixed vehicle.
 

bird67

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I think thoughts that the EPA/CARB might cave on testing are wrong. Both of them looked bad when University students discovered that the testing by both had missed these emissions issues. With all the attention that this scandal has created I feel confident there will be tests done by independent, outside parties to validate the fix. I have read of organizations that have bought VW diesel's as test cars to write/blog about as this process works forward.

Right now, I think time is on our side for those of us hoping for a buyback. The timeline VW has been given is super fast. They have a solid record of missing all deadlines for all models and I believe all proposed fixes for all TDI's to date have been rejected. The engineers who have been working this problem for years are now committed to a solution in 8 weeks, and they know the solution will be scrutinized.

For those of you talking about hiring lawyers, I believe there are old threads that pondered hiring a lawyer and not joining the class. I believe consensus seemed to be that the costs of hiring a lawyer will far exceed any benefit gained beyond that of the settlement.
JKing, I like your analysis and admire your optimism and faith in CARB/EPA, even though I don't share it! I do though share your expressed skepticism of VW.

Someday, when the information all comes out, it will be interested to see if there are meaningful technical distinctions between the first two VW 3.0 "fix" proposals (rejected) and the third VW 3.0 "fix" proposal to come (which I've predicted CARB/EPA will approve).
 

jking11

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As expected, today's hearing was a bust. From Reuters...

"Dec 22 A federal judge said on Thursday that Volkswagen AG has reached an agreement in principle to provide "substantial compensation" to the owners of about 80,000 3.0 liter polluting diesel vehicles, a key hurdle to resolve the German automaker's emissions scandal.

U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer didn't disclose the amount of the owner compensation, which is not included in an earlier $1 billion settlement. Half of the compensation will be paid at the time Breyer grants final approval of the settlement. Earlier this week, Volkswagen reached the $1 billion settlement with U.S. regulators, offering to buy back about 20,000 of the vehicles and paying $225 million into an environmental trust fund to offset the vehicles' excess emissions. (Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Jeffrey Benkoe)"
 

jking11

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The news just keeps getting worse. Thanks for the link pwe312.

"@VW may not get approval for some 3.0 liter fixes until possibly 2018, Judge Breyer says"

They are hitting all the main forum topics today.

For those stripping the cars there is this...
"VW lawyer, federal judge caution owners of polluting diesels not to intentionally damage diesel vehicles before turning them for buybacks"

For those who are frustrated with the 2.0L buybacks, this nugget...
"@FTC lawyer praises progress on @VW 2.0 liter settlement but says there have been some bumps on the road"
Not sure the forum readers will agree that they are just bumps!
 
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LowSeas

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For anyone looking to vent to someone at VW, Jeannine's name was in the Reuters article stating that for now, the terms will remain confidential. Good to know that VW is pleased with the terms. Feel free to drop her an email or a call to let her know how you are feeling as a consumer.

Jeannine Ginivan
Senior Manager, Corporate Communications
(703) 364-7816
jeannine.ginivan@vw.com
 
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