Static timing with big nozzles

[Ncosta76]

Hello,
I have a 1.9 tdi AFN with hflox .341 nozzles set at 240/360 bar. The thing is that with the stock nozzles and injector bodies timing on vcds reads 70~74 . When i change to the other injectors with the hflox nozzles timing reads 38 and it does not even jump around.
Is this normal?

Best Regards

 

[[486]]

the needle lift sensor does not operate at idle with my dssr .360s
so the computer just tosses in a fixed value for the cold start valve (44% IIRC?)

static timing I'm running around 5-6 degrees, 10 deg everywhere above 1200 rpm, then ramping up to 16 deg at full fuel and revs
some pressure in cooling system, but no loss of coolant yet

 

[Ncosta76]

the needle lift sensor does not operate at idle with my dssr .360s
so the computer just tosses in a fixed value for the cold start valve (44% IIRC?)

static timing I'm running around 5-6 degrees, 10 deg everywhere above 1200 rpm, then ramping up to 16 deg at full fuel and revs
some pressure in cooling system, but no loss of coolant yet

I am talking about static timing, that you can check on basic settings --> tdi timing.
I have no checked the CS valve yet.
With the stock injectors i ran 18deg advance, some pressure on cooling but also no cooling loss.

 

[Nevada_TDI]

IIRC, Group 000, box 2, will tell you what your timing is set at; just calculate for fuel temperature to be at approx. 70 degrees at idle warm.

 

[Ncosta76]

IIRC, Group 000, box 2, will tell you what your timing is set at; just calculate for fuel temperature to be at approx. 70 degrees at idle warm.

Yes on that box timing is 038, but with the other injector set, it fluctuates @70~74 .

 

[[486]]

I am talking about static timing, that you can check on basic settings --> tdi timing.
I have no checked the CS valve yet.
With the stock injectors i ran 18deg advance, some pressure on cooling but also no cooling loss.

I set it with the box that tells you "injection start actual" or whatever.
the factory setting is very retarded to allow for ATDC injection, for noise and catalyst heating, none of which applies to my motor, so I don't bother with running the factory setting for static timing

cold start valve is the timing control, the pressure regulator is the one that backs out and you check from time to time.

you normally would run less timing with more injector as the fuel is in sooner
18 degrees, if you can get it and actually hit that part of the map will likely be pretty bad for your motor, especially if you have stock compression ratio

 

[hatemi]

With rasied pop pressure the static timing gets retarded. Just adjust it mechanically back to the top of the graph.

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[bhodgkiss]

Do you have any problems starting the car with 0.341s?
I tried these in my AFN with 10mm pump and cold starts were a nightmare, white smoke etc, but than ran well across the rev range. Static timing looked ok.

But even with my current R520s (and now 11mm pump) cold winter starts take a few more cranks?

 

[Ncosta76]

Do you have any problems starting the car with 0.341s?
I tried these in my AFN with 10mm pump and cold starts were a nightmare, white smoke etc, but than ran well across the rev range. Static timing looked ok.

But even with my current R520s (and now 11mm pump) cold winter starts take a few more cranks?

Car starts far better with hflox, hot or cold, and i am with original 10mm AFN pump.

 

[Ncosta76]

With rasied pop pressure the static timing gets retarded. Just adjust it mechanically back to the top of the graph.

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I can see what you mean, but when you check for static timing, whatever is the value it always goes up and down a bit, with the hflox injectors it stays fixed 038, and i dont think that's normal. Car runs fine, starts better then stock and no SDS at all.

 

[Ncosta76]

I set it with the box that tells you "injection start actual" or whatever.
the factory setting is very retarded to allow for ATDC injection, for noise and catalyst heating, none of which applies to my motor, so I don't bother with running the factory setting for static timing

I had with stock injectors between 70 and 74 degrees static timing, but that changes to 38 with the hflox ones.

cold start valve is the timing control, the pressure regulator is the one that backs out and you check from time to time.

Yes i know.

you normally would run less timing with more injector as the fuel is in sooner
18 degrees, if you can get it and actually hit that part of the map will likely be pretty bad for your motor, especially if you have stock compression ratio

I do have stock CR but now with Hflox i will run less dynamic timing for sure.

 

[[486]]

whatever is the value it always goes up and down a bit, with the hflox injectors it stays fixed 038,

see

the needle lift sensor does not operate at idle with my dssr .360s
so the computer just tosses in a fixed value for the cold start valve (44% IIRC?)

The injector needle lift sensor is a piezo sensor that relies on the snap of the injector internals opening fully against the internal stop, or at least that's what it looked like when I had mine apart.
With large nozzles the injector may not fully open against the stop at idle and other very low fuel situations.

 

[Ncosta76]

see
The injector needle lift sensor is a piezo sensor that relies on the snap of the injector internals opening fully against the internal stop, or at least that's what it looked like when I had mine apart.
With large nozzles the injector may not fully open against the stop at idle and other very low fuel situations.

Yes that makes some sense, because nozzles era large and both stage pop pressure are high.

Thanks!

 

[sali87]

I have the same problem with my new 0.341 hiflox
No signal from needle sensor .
270bar.
White smoke when engine is cold and starts bad.
11mm original pump, 5 cylinder.

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[mk1-83]

No problems with mine dssr .360 65 timing
Needle sensor sees just right maybe because I'm run 12mm head and de143 camplate
Pop pressure 260/340

 

[sali87]

With dssr 0.300 and 13mm pump i had no problems, too

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[[486]]

I'm running 12mm, but de110 camplate and single stage injector internals with pintle lift increased a bit.

 

[mk1-83]

How does that run on single stage injectors
More ore less power
I'm thinking more noise

 

[[486]]

How does that run on single stage injectors
More ore less power
I'm thinking more noise

Oddly enough same noise, far as I could tell...
When I swapped over to single stage I also went from stock manual trans nozzles to pp764, all on 10mm pump and didn't notice any difference in noise. Huge jump in engine noise when swapping from 10mm pump to 12mm, but that's all from the IP.
For a while I was running 8 deg static advance and it was even louder at idle. Not quite like a truck motor, but lots of those just run 15-25 degrees fixed timing, no dynamic advance, makes for very noisy idle.

Power? no clue at all
closest it's ever been to a dyno's when I was in the parking lot where jfettig works, buying a siezed CBEA bottom end haha
I was able to easily increase needle lift at the same time by taking off an extra .004" while converting to single stage, so they may well flow marginally more fuel from that alone.

 

[sali87]

now I have installed 0.275 Hiflox nozzles in my T4 transporter.
stock 11mm pump.
I have the same Problem with needle lift sensor. sometimes no signal on idle.
220bar op like stock
since 6 years I had no problems with 0.260
what can I do?

 

[Rub87]

maybe try a different body/pin?

I run .341/10mm in my afn and it also starts pretty bad cold. I could blame it on the age of the nozzles (unknown) and therefore less than optimal atomisation. once warm it runs/starts well. static advance is 2 deg with no duty cycle to the N108

 

[mk1-83]

where did you buy thise hflox .275 ?
the first serie where good 2014 around then I drive them .275

the second serie are bad 50 % failure ratio, Ryan told me this.
There are a bulagry website that sells fake hflox nozzles

Mine old first set .275 did very well

 

[sali87]

Without fuel pump and new fuel filter no problems yet.
The 0.275 came from canada, I mean.
They drive well. cold start now fine.

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[mk1-83]

I see you use a gta3576klv turbo how does that turbo preforms ?

 

[sali87]

In 5th gear 1,5bar at 2500rpm
From 3000....3500rpm it feels good to drive.
But on 2.5tdi 5cylinder.
2,7bar

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